"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by fleahop » Wed Mar 30, 2022 3:13 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:16 pm
Krillin1994 wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 1:21 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 10:10 am


Yes but it seems to be based around Super iterations, I mean Namek arc Frieza is on a different level of engagement. RoF was a miserable display of his character. People liked the direction the ToP went with him, but even then ultimately his main moment was just at the end for the side by side shot with Goku, the rest of the time just being 'oh ho ho ho I'm wicked'.

With those depictions of Freeza being more fresh in people's minds, then I mean I would probably place Goku Black higher than Frieza.

But Namek Arc Freeza is a level of lasting iconic. Even now if you mention Dragonball casual people immediately think Z. Goku Black will never have that mainstream draw.

But with that Poll we won't know since there was no option for those other villains. If another poll appears down the line where we can vote on villains and Black scores higher than Buu and Cell, then I'll say fair enough. But my gut is thinking people won't be talking about Goku Black like they do with Freeza, Cell and Buu 30 years after their debuts.
The bolded is the point I am getting at and the question that is interesting. We already see many people comparing Ultra Instinct to the original Super Saiyan on Namek, because the scene where Goku awakens Mastered Ultra Instinct against Jiren was so iconic, popular, game-breaking.

I mean, I can't speak for you, but I've seen countless people online saying stuff like "Goku unlocking MUI is as epic as the Super Saiyan scene".

It wouldn't surprise me if Super overtakes DBZ for future generations, it is after all a kids' show. For many kids who grew up in the 2010s and in this decade, DBS is their first introduction to Dragon Ball.
I personally do not like Black/Zamas and typically see the whole arc as a low point in the franchise. Again, I think I understand the appeal as the characters and ideas are super cool. I just don't like the execution.

With that being said, my guy has a great point. Also, I see some pretty fallacious arguments against the polls SupremeKai25 put up. Like it or not Black is a huge deal and will probably have a growing impact over time. I can't speak for how long or how relevant he'll stay, but denying it seems silly.

Without any doubt, Black and Zamas are crazy popular. It's just not my cup of tea.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Wed Mar 30, 2022 3:24 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 4:09 amThe last poll is the most impressive one to me. Because not only it was conducted 5 years after Goku Black's last appearance (as he "died" in 2016, so to say), but it also shows that, amongst those who voted, he was a fan-favourite who ranked even higher than Future Trunks. He's in the Top 5 with Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan, the "Big 3", who have appeared everywhere since forever. And yet Goku Black, who appeared only in 1 arc, and hasn't appeared in 5 years, is in the Top 5 with them, and surpassed a villain like Frieza (who has way, way more screentime). He also easily surpassed Moro, the villain of the arc that just ended at the time of the poll. Enough said tbh.
I don't think anyone is denying Zamasu is popular among DB fans. You claimed Zamasu would be more iconic than Freeza which is kinda difficult to know unless he stands the test of time. I've seen Freeza frequently ranked among the best shonen antagonists of all time while Zamasu isn't mentioned among antagonists of the last decade. I'm pretty sure Jump Force and Breakers so far only used DBZ villains so I don't think the studios considering Zamasu on the same level as them. It's not really necessary for Zamasu to be the best or most popular to argue whether or not he's a decent antagonist. I haven't seen a lot of recent anime but I thought Zamasu was pretty average and didn't really standout to me.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Pafupafu » Wed Mar 30, 2022 11:25 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 4:09 am
Pafupafu wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 12:05 am
kemuri07 wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:55 am

being iconic is not the same as being popular. Being iconic is when people who have no idea about the franchise can still recognize where it comes from. Example: "five minutes, lol."

Zamasu is no where near that, and likely will never be.

It's all about context. DBZ came at a time in which anime just broke through, and it was many people's first introduction to anime. Super came at a time in which anime is easily accessible. Time had a lot to do why DBZ became ultra popular
I agree with this wholeheartedly. The villains in the original series have existed for so long, many years before even hitting the US, and have been featured in pretty much every single video game and merchandise run in Dragon Ball’s height of popularity. Freeza was revived for a modern day theatrical film. I don’t see them doing that for Zamasu in 15-20 years.

The fact is that Super as a TV show and even a manga is too much of a anecdote of the original series and squeezed into a set timeframe that everything just feels secondary/B-side to the original run. The movies carry a bit more importance in their existence and I’d say Beerus and Whis have reached the highest height in terms of iconic staples of the core story. Everything else just isn’t an A-side hit, for lack of a better term. That’s why we don’t see merchandise or digital content being pumped out of the other Universe fighters, Moro, or Gas, etc.

And yet both Cell and Buu were already surpassed by several DBS antagonists in an Official popularity poll:


Goku Black ranked higher than Frieza, Cell, and Buu in another official poll:


And the most recent poll also had Goku Black (who is Zamasu btw) as the highest-ranking villain once again:


Source: https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/Popularity_Polls (therein are also reported all the links to the polls)


Note that 3 official polls have been conducted in the Super era so far, 2 in 2018 and 1 in 2021. So you can't use the argument "well maybe it's recency bias!", because the earliest poll dates back to 2018, when the ToP was airing; 2 years after the conclusion of the Future Trunks arc and the death of Zamasu and Black.

The last poll is the most impressive one to me. Because not only it was conducted 5 years after Goku Black's last appearance (as he "died" in 2016, so to say), but it also shows that, amongst those who voted, he was a fan-favourite who ranked even higher than Future Trunks. He's in the Top 5 with Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan, the "Big 3", who have appeared everywhere since forever. And yet Goku Black, who appeared only in 1 arc, and hasn't appeared in 5 years, is in the Top 5 with them, and surpassed a villain like Frieza (who has way, way more screentime). He also easily surpassed Moro, the villain of the arc that just ended at the time of the poll. Enough said tbh.

I think people here are underestimating one key think about Zamasu and Black: Design.

Regardless of how you feel about it, the idea of an "Evil Goku" and an "Evil Supreme Kai" have been fan-favourites in the fandom for decades, people are interested in these concepts, and so it's only natural that Black and Zamasu would stick out and be remembered. It's just one of those ideas that people have been interested in since forever, which explains why videogames dealt with these ideas a lot (like Demigra, who is an evil Supreme Kai...).
I don’t think those polls accurately reflect the views of Dragon Ball fans as a whole. They are from sources where Dragon Ball Super is literally published and/or promoted.

Let’s just say this and I don’t need a poll to tell me: more people in the world would be able to recognize, identify and name Freeza, Cell and Buu over any Dragon Ball Super villain. They have just been exposed to the world much longer in tons of media formats. Popularity is a tough generalization, but iconography isn’t as those characters are deeply associated with the most popular and iconic iteration of the Dragon Ball franchise and are subsequently iconic for that reason.

But at the end of the day - I do hope Dragon Ball Super (or future iterations) engrains its villains in pop culture the way DBZ did.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Wed Mar 30, 2022 11:44 pm

Pafupafu wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 11:25 pm But at the end of the day - I do hope Dragon Ball Super (or future iterations) engrains its villains in pop culture the way DBZ did.
It definitely won’t, and that’s fine.

The original run was the most popular manga of its time, running in the most popular magazine, with a concurrent weekly TV animation for a decade. Outside of Japan, Z aired in many countries where, due to serendipitous timing, it became nearly synonymous with Japanese action animation at a time when casual interest in it was exploding.

Super was a massively struggling TV production that aired for a few years in a Sunday morning slot and had its manga in V-Jump.

These two series were never even in the same sphere.

I think at best Ultra Instinct and Jiren have a chance of seeing casual references in other media down the line, but they’ll never be on the same scale of ubiquity. And you’ll never see, like, specific moments enter into pop culture consciousness, as the anime production was too slipshod and the manga too obscure.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by FortuneSSJ » Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:40 pm

- About Volume 18-

They finally changed Goku's and Vegeta's drawings in the initial pages:

They have been using these until now:
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Thu Mar 31, 2022 2:44 pm

FortuneSSJ wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:40 pm - About Volume 18-
They finally changed Goku's and Vegeta's drawings in the initial pages:
I think they changed it for Volume 17? Either way, I think it's a good change.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Thu Mar 31, 2022 3:22 pm

Retan wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 6:12 pm I disagree as DBZ has become Iconic in every area they have pushed it.
Sure. But again...it was during a time in which anime was not as easily accessible as it is now. That's the same no matter what region you talk about.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Thu Mar 31, 2022 3:25 pm

Skar wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 3:49 am
kemuri07 wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:55 amIt's all about context. DBZ came at a time in which anime just broke through, and it was many people's first introduction to anime. Super came at a time in which anime is easily accessible. Time had a lot to do why DBZ became ultra popular
That could be a factor but I don't think Zamasu ranks highly among anime antagonists of the last decade especially comparing ones with the same archetype. I haven't seen many recent anime but I recognize some antagonists without having watched their series. I think Beerus is the most memorable antagonist out of this revival.
but lets be honest...we're all weebs here. We all recognize characters because we regularly are exposed to this.

I'm talking about showing a character to someone who does not watch or consume anime, and they can still have some idea what it is. Like you don't kneed to know what Pokemon is to know who PIkachu is. Same as Mario or Sonic. That's being iconic.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Thu Mar 31, 2022 5:10 pm

The thing about Goku Black being so popular is that he's almost the Evil Goku concept we ever wanted that before was only part to fanfiction.

But I think they handled him poorly, seeing how popular Black become, they could have made him a sort of a recurring villain. I almost though they would do that using the Mafuba by simply trapping him in a jar, to sometime after he managed to escape in another arc...

That's why I appreciate Heroes, they gave us fans chance to taste a concept similar to this, that's sadly will probably never happen in the core series.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Thu Mar 31, 2022 5:49 pm

kemuri07 wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 3:25 pmbut lets be honest...we're all weebs here. We all recognize characters because we regularly are exposed to this.

I'm talking about showing a character to someone who does not watch or consume anime, and they can still have some idea what it is. Like you don't kneed to know what Pokemon is to know who PIkachu is. Same as Mario or Sonic. That's being iconic.
I guess we meant different things by "iconic". What I meant is a standout antagonist praised by the overall anime community and not just the fanbase of one specific series. Any recent DB villain would be well known to anime fans but it's not the same as being ranked among the best of recent anime.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by capsulecorp » Thu Mar 31, 2022 6:25 pm

Skar wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 5:49 pm
kemuri07 wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 3:25 pmbut lets be honest...we're all weebs here. We all recognize characters because we regularly are exposed to this.

I'm talking about showing a character to someone who does not watch or consume anime, and they can still have some idea what it is. Like you don't kneed to know what Pokemon is to know who PIkachu is. Same as Mario or Sonic. That's being iconic.
I guess we meant different things by "iconic". What I meant is a standout antagonist praised by the overall anime community and not just the fanbase of one specific series. Any recent DB villain would be well known to anime fans but it's not the same as being ranked among the best of recent anime.
Yeah, I think this is right, as much as we might enjoy DBS it's never going to produce anything as "iconic" and recognizable as the characters from the original series. I think Beerus and (to a lesser extent) Whis are the closest we'll get, mostly due to the extraordinarily high quality of their visual designs.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lionel » Thu Mar 31, 2022 10:32 pm

Super feels like the placid genericised spin off of Dragon Ball. It's technically a canon work with the backing and involvement of Toriyama but its premise and execution feels self-contained, inconsequential. Not that classic Dragon Ball had much in the way of consequentialism with a device like the Dragon Balls to clean up their mess. You could at least argue that the group dynamics were constantly changing. It isn't so much anymore.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Thu Mar 31, 2022 11:41 pm

The Super manga, even at its best, will never compare to the original run. Such are the limitations of an inconsequential sequel about a 10 year filler gap.

But at least its first few arcs managed to retain Toriyama's frenetic pacing, atmosphere, storytelling and character dynamics, which is more than I can say for literally any addition to the franchise between 1995 and 2013. The Moro and Granolah arcs are where I'd say the DBS manga truly stagnates, even just based purely on its own merits.

It is what it is. If it continues in this direction, I probably won't be reading it for much longer.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Apr 01, 2022 8:15 am

Noah wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 5:10 pm The thing about Goku Black being so popular is that he's almost the Evil Goku concept we ever wanted that before was only part to fanfiction.

But I think they handled him poorly, seeing how popular Black become, they could have made him a sort of a recurring villain. I almost though they would do that using the Mafuba by simply trapping him in a jar, to sometime after he managed to escape in another arc...

That's why I appreciate Heroes, they gave us fans chance to taste a concept similar to this, that's sadly will probably never happen in the core series.
Actually I rather enjoy the fact that Zamasu and Black appear only in 1 arc, it makes them more unique and special, so to say.

Meanwhile Frieza has become a Saturday Scooby doo cartoon villain. He appears many times just to get his plans foiled over and over again to the point that I can no longer take him seriously.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by OLKv3 » Fri Apr 01, 2022 3:57 pm

FortuneSSJ wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:40 pm - About Volume 18-

They finally changed Goku's and Vegeta's drawings in the initial pages:

They have been using these until now:
Any news on the extra pages?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Sun Apr 03, 2022 6:42 pm

OLKv3 wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 3:57 pm Any news on the extra pages?

The Super Hero piece is good, and just further reinforces how eager I am to see the manga move on to a new story arc already (whatever that may be).
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Dbzfan94 » Sun Apr 03, 2022 7:20 pm

A large part of the reason Goku Black is so popular I think, is because he's evil Goku with a flashy new Super Saiyan recolor form. And people have been wanting that for over a decade by that point, so of course a lot are gonna eat that up. If it were hypothetically just Zamasu on his own, he would not be that high in my opinion.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Sun Apr 03, 2022 10:35 pm

Mr Baggins wrote: Sun Apr 03, 2022 6:42 pm
The Super Hero piece is good, and just further reinforces how eager I am to see the manga move on to a new story arc already (whatever that may be).
Interesting to see how kid Gas appear with the necklace for the first time here. We already know he lost control against Bardock (which must be the reason for him to use the necklace after the battle), but that can't be the only reason for him to be defeated. He doesn't have that weakness anymore and the whole "what Bardock did to defeat him" is still being used by the story in the present

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by anubisj » Wed Apr 06, 2022 1:05 pm

For me the manga is lacklustre, but, as I said elsewhere, we need more people to add ideas to Dragon Ball, and so far, I don't dislike many things that Toyotaro added ( Yamcha defending the Earth, Goku and Vegeta helping the Galactic Patrol, exploring the Galactic prison and inmates, the whole concept and design of the cerelians, elec and his gang, Vegeta aiming to have Hakai while Goku takes the Ultra instinct path)

Also, am I the only who loves Muezli's design and wished she was more used, either as a stronger character that appears more often or even as a powerful villain? God, I just love that design

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Wed Apr 06, 2022 1:56 pm

Now that volume 18 has been released, does anyone have the updated spineart and table of contents?

Image

This one only covers up to volume 15. I was curious what characters were shown after the last three Kaioshin. I assume the Zenos and their guards?

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