"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:18 pm

Despite acquiring this power, Granolah doesn't sound like he's taking Freeza lightly. He needs all of his power intact for that battle.

Looking back at Gas, he was told to stand down when he tried to fight Granolah. Later, Elec told him that he probably could've won, but states it wasn't worth the risk. He then tells Gas he's the only one in the family who has the potential to surpass Freeza.

Are they overestimating Freeza here? Or do they know something about Freeza that we don't?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:21 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:18 pm Despite acquiring this power, Granolah doesn't sound like he's taking Freeza lightly. He needs all of his power intact for that battle.

Looking back at Gas, he was told to stand down when he tried to fight Granolah. Later, Elec told him that he probably could've won, but states it wasn't worth the risk. He then tells Gas he's the only one in the family who has the potential to surpass Freeza. They have the data on the Saiyans, which is why they're confident the pair could handle Granolah.

Are they overestimating Freeza here? Or do they know something about Freeza that we don't?
Vegeta in the Broly arc's reason for training includes the threat of Freeza too. We all know whenever Freeza shows up he gets boosted to the necessary standard of the plot. As you stated, Eleec and Gas are concerned about Freeza as is Granolah. It is not an overestimation but a reality Freeza is always a threat.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ZodiacBeast » Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:07 pm

I still wish that the erased TOP universes had been merged with U7 as part of the revival wish...at least we could have interesting character combos. What about the villains of the other universes?

Then again, Granollah would also get the powers of Jiren, the wolf Trio and others.

Wow.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:16 pm

ZodiacBeast wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:07 pm I still wish that the erased TOP universes had been merged with U7 as part of the revival wish...at least we could have interesting character combos. What about the villains of the other universes?

Then again, Granollah would also get the powers of Jiren, the wolf Trio and others.

Wow.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:17 pm

LightBing wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:22 pm Jiren hold off Goku in UI, power still trumps all. This isn't about giving Goku weaknesses, it's about giving the character something to strive for.

The story wants to slowdown progress instead of jumping to UI 2, 3 etc... Which I agree with, the problem is the blatant lack of planning.
All the new information is a surprise because for the 2/3 arcs UI has been present nothing has been hint at.

We just have to deal with these growing pains, unless people prefer UI 2 to pop up this arc.
Pretty much agree with this. I like the idea that the story is expanding the UI concept because the intention is (apparently at least) to prevent the Saiyans from jumping straight into new forms with each arc. UI really seems to be the endgoal for Goku, and although similar criticisms have been made about the Hakai being introduced as something capable of elevating Vegeta beyond the ultimate technique of the Gods, the intent is the same, to give the characters something to strive for, and thus needing to expand the concept of these pre-existing techniques, but the problem is precisely what you mentioned, some things being tought out as the story progress.

However, after seeing some reactions to Goku's defeat out there, I'm pretty sure a lot of people aren't too fond of the idea that the UI can somehow be completely surpassed. Sure, maybe it's testament that the form really has been well portrayed as an imposing presence, but it's kind of difficult when you have complaints about the form being constantly nerfed, but at the same time you have demands saying that UI should remain as an untouchable or undefeatable form
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:38 pm

OLKv3 wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:10 am People complaining about UI losing. It kills me
UI had two full arcs dedicated to it. And even this arc seems to still be about making it stronger. It's been protected far more than previous Goku forms. Usually in DB, Goku's strongest form is immediately declared weaksauce by the next big villain.
To be fair, Blue also had this treatment. It debuted in RoF but was still relevant in both the U6 Tournament and Future Trunks arcs and in the Broly movie.

Honestly I don't mind UI being defeatable. It still is the ultimate technique. Even Granolah as the "Strongest in the Universe" couldn't find any openings or weak spots in the form and had to resort to buy time for it to falter, in order to win. Even if he's naturally stronger than UI Goku, the fact that he opted for this approach speaks volumes at how powerful UI is. Granolah won by exploiting an weakness, not by overpowering it. That's actually good writing, even if the execution was... Eh.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:14 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:17 pm However, after seeing some reactions to Goku's defeat out there, I'm pretty sure a lot of people aren't too fond of the idea that the UI can somehow be completely surpassed. Sure, maybe it's testament that the form really has been well portrayed as an imposing presence, but it's kind of difficult when you have complaints about the form being constantly nerfed, but at the same time you have demands saying that UI should remain as an untouchable or undefeatable form
People shouldn't have any expectation that UI is invincible, never. When Muten Roshi told his student: "there's always someone stronger", after defeating him as Jackie Chun; the mood was set.

No matter how cool and how hyped in-universe any form or character is. There's no ceiling in this manga and if someone expects it, they've misjudged it greatly.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:53 pm

LightBing wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:14 pmPeople shouldn't have any expectation that UI is invincible, never. When Muten Roshi told his student: "there's always someone stronger", after defeating him as Jackie Chun; the mood was set.

No matter how cool and how hyped in-universe any form or character is. There's no ceiling in this manga and if someone expects it, they've misjudged it greatly.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:21 pm

TKA wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:19 pm
Kinokima wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:29 pm Goku is only going to get better at UI as the story moves on but that creates a problem because they will need to create antagonists that can counter UI even as Goku gets better and better at it

I think they need to stop selling stuff as the most optimal and unbeatable form. UI sounded amazing on paper but it really can’t be if they want the story to continue.
Welcome to the idea of power creep.

I just found it funny you basically just described the concept of power creep like it’s a new phenomenon. No offense intended.
It’s not like I don’t know what power creep is or that Dragon Ball has not been doing it since Super Saiyan

But UI was presented as an absolutely unbeatable move where you can dodge everything.

The problem is they killed the concept by giving it to Goku too soon. Of course they are getting away with it by now saying there are different levels of it but how UI was originally presented and what it ultimately became are two very different things.


And of course I don’t actually expect UI to be unbeatable once Goku gets it. It’s not just the philosophy of DB that there is always someone stronger. There would be no story if UI was actually unbeatable.

Instead of giving Goku UI in the TOP they could of presented the concepts in steps from the start and have Goku slowly learn the concepts of UI having him slowly get closer to the Gods. In a way that is what they are doing now. But I think UI would have been more interesting if it was always presented as a step by step process.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Mon Jun 21, 2021 9:12 pm

I agree with the post above. It does seem like they're going at it backwards. Rather than progressively working towards completed UI, they gave Goku the complete form from the get-go, and now they're retroactively shoehorning in flaws which necessitate specific training to alleviate - training which literally requires him to go backwards, from Silver all the way down to base. Everything surrounding UI's execution has been clunky.

I do feel like the initial presentation of the form during the Tournament of Power was fine, but having Goku master the form and being able to tap into it at will last arc was a mistake. Sign, perhaps, would have been enough. He should have been learning the very basics - using Ultra Instinct in his lesser forms - first.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Tai Lung » Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:06 pm

OLKv3 wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:10 am People complaining about UI losing. It kills me
UI had two full arcs dedicated to it. And even this arc seems to still be about making it stronger. It's been protected far more than previous Goku forms. Usually in DB, Goku's strongest form is immediately declared weaksauce by the next big villain.
I remember that many complained that Goku UIM was beaten by jiren in the anime (although there it was the first time he used it) claiming that in the manga this did not happen ... ah but now that the manga does, it is justifiable right?

anyway ... isn't goku supposed was trained for many months to master the ultra instinct to later be taken by surprise like that? ... I understand that the angels are superior but that granolah surprises him with an illusion if the same Moro with merus powers did not achieve it ... and that the same vegeta could realize it before him ... it is a huge setback ... if they want goku to have weaknesses because they didn't just make it take longer to get the UID it's basically the same error as SSB in FNF

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:45 pm

Tai Lung wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:06 pm
OLKv3 wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:10 am People complaining about UI losing. It kills me
UI had two full arcs dedicated to it. And even this arc seems to still be about making it stronger. It's been protected far more than previous Goku forms. Usually in DB, Goku's strongest form is immediately declared weaksauce by the next big villain.
I remember that many complained that Goku UIM was beaten by jiren in the anime (although there it was the first time he used it) claiming that in the manga this did not happen ... ah but now that the manga does, it is justifiable right?

anyway ... isn't goku supposed was trained for many months to master the ultra instinct to later be taken by surprise like that? ... I understand that the angels are superior but that granolah surprises him with an illusion if the same Moro with merus powers did not achieve it ... and that the same vegeta could realize it before him ... it is a huge setback ... if they want goku to have weaknesses because they didn't just make it take longer to get the UID it's basically the same error as SSB in FNF
You got the order wrong, Tai. It was in the manga that Jiren bested MUI Goku fair and square.

And it's just like you said, Goku was surprised. Granolah pretty much waited for this opportunity, implying that otherwise he couldn't pull off that takedown. It's a way to keep UI still overpowered as a concept, but defeatable by exploiting it's inherent weaknessess (although to be fair, it's Goku's weakness rather than the technique - his body just can't handle it for long).

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by theherodjl » Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:51 pm

Why didn't Goku use UI Sign??? It would've lasted longer and it's thoroughly superior to SSJB. Instead, Goku decided to jump to MUI and then use up his energy quickly against a now-outmatched opponent. Goku doesn't usually do this so I'd chalk this up to plot convenience for Goku to lose so that Vegeta could have a turn.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jack Bz » Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:00 pm

theherodjl wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:51 pm Why didn't Goku use UI Sign??? It would've lasted longer and it's thoroughly superior to SSJB. Instead, Goku decided to jump to MUI and then use up his energy quickly against a now-outmatched opponent. Goku doesn't usually do this so I'd chalk this up to plot convenience for Goku to lose so that Vegeta could have a turn.
Image

Sign has already been described as having the same stamina issues as perfected ultra instinct, but probably to an even worse extent. It's a pretty useless form now and wouldn't have helped in this situation.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by theherodjl » Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:18 pm

Jack Bz wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:00 pm
theherodjl wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:51 pm Why didn't Goku use UI Sign??? It would've lasted longer and it's thoroughly superior to SSJB. Instead, Goku decided to jump to MUI and then use up his energy quickly against a now-outmatched opponent. Goku doesn't usually do this so I'd chalk this up to plot convenience for Goku to lose so that Vegeta could have a turn.
Image

Sign has already been described as having the same stamina issues as perfected ultra instinct, but probably to an even worse extent. It's a pretty useless form now and wouldn't have helped in this situation.

It couldn't be worse since Goku lasted with UI Sign longer than he did with MUI in his fights thus far. As Goku showed in the latest chapter and at the beginning of the arc as well, when he decides to use his energy all willy nilly, MUI lasts only a minute or so. Goku managed to last at least a little longer than that against Moro using UI Sign.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Tai Lung » Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:25 pm

Thani wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:45 pm
Tai Lung wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:06 pm
OLKv3 wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:10 am People complaining about UI losing. It kills me
UI had two full arcs dedicated to it. And even this arc seems to still be about making it stronger. It's been protected far more than previous Goku forms. Usually in DB, Goku's strongest form is immediately declared weaksauce by the next big villain.
I remember that many complained that Goku UIM was beaten by jiren in the anime (although there it was the first time he used it) claiming that in the manga this did not happen ... ah but now that the manga does, it is justifiable right?

anyway ... isn't goku supposed was trained for many months to master the ultra instinct to later be taken by surprise like that? ... I understand that the angels are superior but that granolah surprises him with an illusion if the same Moro with merus powers did not achieve it ... and that the same vegeta could realize it before him ... it is a huge setback ... if they want goku to have weaknesses because they didn't just make it take longer to get the UID it's basically the same error as SSB in FNF
You got the order wrong, Tai. It was in the manga that Jiren bested MUI Goku fair and square.

And it's just like you said, Goku was surprised. Granolah pretty much waited for this opportunity, implying that otherwise he couldn't pull off that takedown. It's a way to keep UI still overpowered as a concept, but defeatable by exploiting it's inherent weaknessess (although to be fair, it's Goku's weakness rather than the technique - his body just can't handle it for long).
that I remember goku in the manga he lost because he could not maintain the transformation ... since it was increasingly difficult to concentrate and loses it, it was then that jiren hit him
In the anime ... jiren managed to give him some blows however it was not enough to defeat him ... goku just ran out of time ...

that .. if Moro with the power of merus could not understand why granolah yes .. shouldn't he be able to feel his presence or hear the air move?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DiscountDabi » Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:52 pm

I see people confused as to how Granolah has all of these different Abilities from tons of other fighters. Simply put, you have to remember exactly what Granolah wished for and what the Dragon Said he would do.

Granloah Says as his wish "Turn me into the Greatest Warrior in the Universe".

Before Toronbo grants the wish, he says this "I am able to Multiply your Current Strenght by Condensing any and all power you could have accumulated in your lifetime"

Given these two statements we have proper context for the Power given to Granloah Via the Wish. The key part of the Wish Granloah asked for was to become the Greatest Warrior in the Universe. A great warrior is not only definded by Strenght but skill and technique aswell. It would make sense that the Greatest Warrior in the Universe would possess the Greatest Technique's In the Universe as well such as the Hakai as he has already demonstrated along side things like Tiens Multiform Technique and Moro's Magical Techniques.

This is also backed up by the Means in which Granloah gains this power. The Dragon Says that he will Give Granloah any and all power he could have Accumulated in his lifetime. Which is inline with what we have been shown so far.

Now, given the way the wish was worded it seems his powerup and gain in technique's only apply's to Universe 7 so I wouldn't expect to see him whip out Timeskip or Any Technique's we saw from the Tournament of Power outside of the Universe 7 team.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:25 am

Miracles wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:21 pm
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:18 pm Despite acquiring this power, Granolah doesn't sound like he's taking Freeza lightly. He needs all of his power intact for that battle.

Looking back at Gas, he was told to stand down when he tried to fight Granolah. Later, Elec told him that he probably could've won, but states it wasn't worth the risk. He then tells Gas he's the only one in the family who has the potential to surpass Freeza. They have the data on the Saiyans, which is why they're confident the pair could handle Granolah.

Are they overestimating Freeza here? Or do they know something about Freeza that we don't?
Vegeta in the Broly arc's reason for training includes the threat of Freeza too. We all know whenever Freeza shows up he gets boosted to the necessary standard of the plot. As you stated, Eleec and Gas are concerned about Freeza as is Granolah. It is not an overestimation but a reality Freeza is always a threat.
He did last an hour solo against Broly when neither Goku or Vegeta could. I really hope he's got something new up his sleeve and not just pure power. We're a few arcs removed from that, but it's noteworthy. The ki control he was developing in the anime seemed pretty interesting, so hopefully we get that sort of development in the manga.
DiscountDabi wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:52 pm I see people confused as to how Granolah has all of these different Abilities from tons of other fighters. Simply put, you have to remember exactly what Granolah wished for and what the Dragon Said he would do.
...
Now, given the way the wish was worded it seems his powerup and gain in technique's only apply's to Universe 7 so I wouldn't expect to see him whip out Timeskip or Any Technique's we saw from the Tournament of Power outside of the Universe 7 team.
The explanation is appreciated. The concept just wasn't clicking with me. It still comes off too vague for my liking but it's there. This does present a problem for future story arcs though, especially when it comes to universe 7 characters. If a character from a future U7 arc uses a really useful technique, something Granolah should've used to win then it undermines Granolah's wish, because theoretically he would have acquired the technique in his theoretical 200+ year lifetime. Hopefully this is used as an excuse to get out of Universe 7!

Then what about visitors from other universes and timelines? He could have theoretically trained with them as well. What if he made the wish before the ToP? Could he have theoretically trained with each fighter and learned their techniques? What is really the limit to this wish? Should there be any with something this vague?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:16 am

DiscountDabi wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:52 pm I see people confused as to how Granolah has all of these different Abilities from tons of other fighters. Simply put, you have to remember exactly what Granolah wished for and what the Dragon Said he would do.

Granloah Says as his wish "Turn me into the Greatest Warrior in the Universe".

Before Toronbo grants the wish, he says this "I am able to Multiply your Current Strenght by Condensing any and all power you could have accumulated in your lifetime"

Given these two statements we have proper context for the Power given to Granloah Via the Wish. The key part of the Wish Granloah asked for was to become the Greatest Warrior in the Universe. A great warrior is not only definded by Strenght but skill and technique aswell. It would make sense that the Greatest Warrior in the Universe would possess the Greatest Technique's In the Universe as well such as the Hakai as he has already demonstrated along side things like Tiens Multiform Technique and Moro's Magical Techniques.

This is also backed up by the Means in which Granloah gains this power. The Dragon Says that he will Give Granloah any and all power he could have Accumulated in his lifetime. Which is inline with what we have been shown so far.

Now, given the way the wish was worded it seems his powerup and gain in technique's only apply's to Universe 7 so I wouldn't expect to see him whip out Timeskip or Any Technique's we saw from the Tournament of Power outside of the Universe 7 team.


Granolah having all these moves isn’t the problem for me. The problem is the wish he made doesn’t feel like a real cost for all these powers.


I love Monkey Paw wishes but this is just a real boring one

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:41 am

theherodjl wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:18 pm It couldn't be worse since Goku lasted with UI Sign longer than he did with MUI in his fights thus far. As Goku showed in the latest chapter and at the beginning of the arc as well, when he decides to use his energy all willy nilly, MUI lasts only a minute or so. Goku managed to last at least a little longer than that against Moro using UI Sign.
Goku had no problem mantaining Ultra Instinct in this chapter and it wasn't even said that his performance had dropped drastically or anything. Granolah just took advantage of the very first crack in the technique's precision to find an opening. He's probably the only one able to notice the accuracy decreasing so subtly anyway.

Goku also says in the chapter that he would need to use Full Power UI to defeat Granolah, so I don't think Sign would work things out here. The Silver Haired form was used to finish off the enemy, as Whis said it should, Goku just couldn't predict he was a clone

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