"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Sikat]

Ah yes, the people who claimed Super Boo absorbing Gohan gained him power which rivals SS3 Goku know more than what the manga itself says / shows.

Stop appealing to a false authority and use your eyes to see these are not the same:





You gain absolutely nothing by arguing just to argue.

[Brettjr25]

You should show some humility and just back down and admit you were wrong. Nothing is gained through intentional ignorance.

[Sikat]

You should show some humility and just back down and admit you were wrong. Nothing is gained through intentional ignorance.

^^^

[mute_proxy]

You should show some humility and just back down and admit you were wrong. Nothing is gained through intentional ignorance.

^^^

That was pointed towards you.

[Sikat]

You should show some humility and just back down and admit you were wrong. Nothing is gained through intentional ignorance.

^^^

That was pointed towards you.

Now you’re just being toxic.

[DiscountDabi]

^^^

That was pointed towards you.

Now you’re just being toxic.

Dude, The forms are expressly confirmed to be Blue Kaioken and Blue Evolution in V-Jump and we have litterally no reason to think otherwise. The fact that the Anime Design Shimmers like blue waxy disco ball does not change the fact that they are intended to be the same form for the different continuity.

Either Concede that fact or bring in actual evidence.

[Sikat]

Either Concede that fact or bring in actual evidence.

I posted evidence from both the manga and anime, you just keep ignoring it despite these being posts right above yours. At this point it’s clear you’re not here to have an honest discussion, and you will refuse to ever admit you’re wrong. So I’m going to walk away from this and let the moderation team handle you.

[Koitsukai]

First time I see somebody trying to disprove actual evidence based on... based on nothing really.

[Jack Bz]

They're not exactly the same thing, and but the point of the original post by pepd was that the manga has incorporated and adapted some previously anime only concepts into itself. Goku powers up in a similar principle to kaioken (which is even name dropped) while in blue form which starts to wreck his own body. Krillin even says "the kaioken? Now, after all this time?". If it does the same thing as kaioken, and is functionally the same including the wrecking of one's body, is it not fair to say that it's Toyo's interpretation of kaioken while using super Saiyan blue?

And Vegeta gets a new form that is an evolution of super Saiyan blue. The design is different, but functionally they're the same thing. I don't see much wiggle room with this one. Toyo was just free to use his own not ugly as hell design.

[kemuri07]

Completely disagree. The point of this fight is show the results of both Vegeta's and Goku's training. However, what makes this markedly different how much Beerus' training has clearly changed Vegeta's attitude. And that's apparent in how he holds himself, how he reacts to Granolah which is markedly different from how Vegeta has held himself in the past. This is absolutely storytelling via action rather than simply focusing on exposition to get us through.

Let me put it another way.

But "telling a story" is not just simply things that "progress the story." A fight scene tells us a story based on the combatants, the way the fight goes on, who wins, ect, ect. It doesn't necessarily have to have elements that push the along. There's a reason why people are reacting fairly strongly to this chapter. It's not just because of the fight choreography, because Super's action scenes have been pretty consistent throughout this arc. But it's the little details throughout this chapter that make it more than "just a fight scene," some of which you've already singled out in your own post.

Like I said before, this is a Vegeta showcase; whereas Goku handles the situation as per usual, Vegeta takes a dramatically different approach which is a result of his training with Beerus. This is not just "another fight," and I don't like this chapter simply because it revealed a new form (in fact it was something that I, myself, was growing weary of), I like it because of how Vegeta is directing this fight: It's telling me how he's changed and where the next chapter might go. That's storytelling. I am excited because this feels like potentially changing the dynamic of its characters.

The problem with your examples is that they're all being made with hindsight. Of course we know the effect of these key scenes because we all know what ends up happening. Super is an ongoing series: you could absolutely be proven right, and the next chapter could be a big ole nothing and we're back to square one, but I'm remaining optimistic.

[Sikat]

They're not exactly the same thing

Yeah, they have nothing in common.

And Vegeta gets a new form that is an evolution of super Saiyan blue.

It’s never called that. Instead it’s just stated to be “that blue form.”

[Kinokima]

They're not exactly the same thing

Yeah, they have nothing in common.

And Vegeta gets a new form that is an evolution of super Saiyan blue.

It’s never called that. Instead it’s just stated to be “that blue form.”

They are just called the same thing by V-Jump

But yeah other then that nothing in common

[Sikat]

They're not exactly the same thing

Yeah, they have nothing in common.

And Vegeta gets a new form that is an evolution of super Saiyan blue.

It’s never called that. Instead it’s just stated to be “that blue form.”

They are just called the same thing by V-Jump

But yeah other then that nothing in common

V-Jump interns are notorious for getting things wrong. In that same page they state SSB Vegerot has power which rivals Beerus - a statement which the author himself debunked years ago.

I guess the main issue here is what people value in terms of the truth.
Do you value the story itself, what your own eyes show you, and author statements... or a blurb from random V-Jump employees that created their own nickname for stuff in the manga?

[Jack Bz]

They're not exactly the same thing

Yeah, they have nothing in common.

And Vegeta gets a new form that is an evolution of super Saiyan blue.

It’s never called that. Instead it’s just stated to be “that blue form.”

It's straight up ridiculous to say they have nothing in common when kaioken is literally brought up by name. Like, in what ways are they even functionally different? It seems a lot more like kaioken than the anime even, which during the ToP acts more like a transformation with no draw backs.

Gohan refers to SSBe in the manga as "that's the super Saiyan blue form used at the tournament of power", differentiating it from super Saiyan blue used in other situations. So it is a form of super Saiyan blue. Super Saiyan blue evolved seems like the same concept to me and everyone else, especially when they're introduced at the same point in the story.

They're just Toyo's takes on them.

[Koitsukai]

Toyotaro never debunked Shin's statement, he literally said Shin could be right or wrong, that's hardly a debunk... I think you misread pretty much everything to fit your own pre-conceived notions to the point of denying official material.

[Jack Bz]

To be fair to Sikat, I've always agreed that these supplementary publications like V-Jump infographics and guidebooks should be taken with a grain of salt and aren't the arbiter of what's true in Dragon Ball. It is a good point that they have claimed things such Gohan Absorbed Boo being the same power as SSJ3 Goku, and everyone agreed to collectively ignore it. They will always be way less relevant than the story itself.

But I think it's very very clear that SSBe and SSB Kaioken have very direct adaptations by Toyo in the manga.

[emperior]

To be fair to Sikat, I've always agreed that these supplementary publications like V-Jump infographics and guidebooks should be taken with a grain of salt and aren't the arbiter of what's true in Dragon Ball. It is a good point that they have claimed things such Gohan Absorbed Boo being the same power as SSJ3 Goku, and everyone agreed to collectively ignore it. They will always be way less relevant than the story itself.

But I think it's very very clear that SSBe and SSB Kaioken have very direct adaptations by Toyo in the manga.

Maybe Vegeta’s evolved form does somewhat come from the anime, but Kaioken is quite different as it didn’t stick around. It was just a small plot point to show how desperate Goku was and how wrongly he was approaching the fight.

The evolved Blue was probably outlined by Toriyama, I think, but of course he gave no design and so Toyotaro was free to ignore the terrible anime design. He also ignored Trunks’ rage form and didn’t make Kale a full Broly clone.

[Koitsukai]

To be fair to Sikat, I've always agreed that these supplementary publications like V-Jump infographics and guidebooks should be taken with a grain of salt and aren't the arbiter of what's true in Dragon Ball. It is a good point that they have claimed things such Gohan Absorbed Boo being the same power as SSJ3 Goku, and everyone agreed to collectively ignore it. They will always be way less relevant than the story itself.

But I think it's very very clear that SSBe and SSB Kaioken have very direct adaptations by Toyo in the manga.

Sure, but these forms appeared in the actual manga first. BK gets a direct nod as it could get, and SSBE gets an aura and a power up, BK also gets a distinctive aura. The supplementary publication just "officially" names them, but we already knew how they were called.

I remember people dismissing them because "if it's from the anime then it's not cool", but they are what they are according to the manga itself. In this particular case, V-Jump supports what the manga provided.

[Jack Bz]

Maybe Vegeta’s evolved form does somewhat come from the anime, but Kaioken is quite different as it didn’t stick around. It was just a small plot point to show how desperate Goku was and how wrongly he was approaching the fight.

Yeah. They're used differently and it's a more logical and thematically coherent use in the manga in my opinion, but it is the same concept still.

The evolved Blue was probably outlined by Toriyama, I think, but of course he gave no design and so Toyotaro was free to ignore the terrible anime design. He also ignored Trunks’ rage form and didn’t make Kale a full Broly clone.

I have a hard time believing it was in Toriyama's outline because it doesn't make any appearance in the Broly film, so I don't really know why Toriyama would himself introduce a new form and then pretend it doesn't exist in his next story.

[Sikat]

But I think it's very very clear that SSBe and SSB Kaioken have very direct adaptations by Toyo in the manga.

No.

Goku never uses the technique Kaioken in the manga, and Vegeta’s SSB from the ToP is not the anime exclusive eyesore transformation.