"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[PurestEvil]

Hold on...
The reason why the heeters got the attention of Bardock was because Granolah yelled in horror after seeing the saiyan. If he hadn't woken up and subsequently blown their cover, they would not have encountered the heeters, who wouldn't have shot Muezli if they went away.

Granolah is partially responsible for Granolah's death...that is gonna be quite the epiphany if he recognizes it...

[emperior]

I wonder what the Heeter's wish will be. Elec has stated over and over again he isn't interested in brute force. He considers Intel power, and all his moves in this arc has been exactly that. Manipulation. He even had a chance to send Granolah after Freeza and refused to do it. I don't think it'll be as simple as making Gas the strongest. Then again, this is Toyotaro

I just imagine something lame as:
- Able to travel during space and time, so he can spam infinite wishes over time then make Gas eternal and finally using his lifespan (infinite) to break his limits

I don't think that Gas would renounce to his life just to be stronger than anything else.

Moreover I just notice that:
- Monaito was just a bit stronger than Kurinin in the 23th Budokai Tenkaichi with a PL of 213 (but weaker than Kami).
- Gas was probably beaten by Bardock who was probably towards his potential (around 10.000). So, basically over this 40 years surely he was a prodigy but nothing special compared to Frieza's trusted henchmen. This means that the other three were not so exceptional, even if in the present time Maki and Oil seem to be really good fighters.
- Elec is the weakest but the smartest of his gang?

Bardock was a 2.000 power level at best.

Gas just sucked and got a whole lot better in 40 years.

[JulieYBM]

Well, what does Elec need that he doesn't already have? Elec's trade is selling planets...but would he want to just have every planet easy to steal?

Maybe he wants more planets to steal? Insuring ghat he will have work for years to come?

[kemuri07]

But in Minus he's still committing genocide. The idea that this was the moment his softness took effect doesn't work.

This is just exists because someone wanted to insert Bardock into the story. Monaito randomly survived the genocide, no reason for Granolah and his mom to do the same, there's no necessity to justify them being spared/saved in the story.

Because Bardock didn't become a good guy because of that action. This ''softness'' only took effect at that particular moment because the situation reminded him of Gine and Goku. He spared them both for selfish reasons. Toyo even mirrored the moment Muezli shoots Bardock with the moment Gine points at him in the flashbkack.

Despite that, I think this chapter could do more to paint Bardock as a genuinely asshole who just did something good out of caprice. We know he was part of the massacre of all those people, but he isn't shown killing anyone, probably so as not to make him look too bad for the audience. I think it got a weird middle ground because even in Toriyama's view we know that Bardock is only slightly better than other Saiyans, but he's still a mass murderer, and I don't think that here he's supposed to be showed as much different (because he's literally part of all this mess) despite that good action, but he ended up not looking that bad

That's my point. Even his first appearance in this chapter shows him remarkably chill. I'd even say that stance he takes when Granolah's mother spots him is damn near heroic. and yeah it goes out of its way to avoid showing Bardock killing anyone.

I've been thinking about it, and I think the problem here is that this flashback is too short. The implication here is that, since he's returned from wherever, that because he first sets his eyes on his son, that this is the reason why he decides to spare Granaloh and his mother. On paper that's not the worst thing. But in execution? I don't buy it. I don't buy that a warrior who casually engages in genocide would show mercy to three individuals...then go and risk his own survival by attacking his employers knowing full well it'll bring the wrath of Freeza on his neck. It doesn't track.

How I would have done it: Granolah's mother is already dead. Killed by a blast or whatever. Granolah himself, distraught and terrified, hides in the abandoned building. Bardock thinks he sees something and decides to check for any survivors. He sees Granolah, huddled in a corner. He walks up has his palm raised, ready to blast him. Just then..Granolah stares at him tears in his eyes. Bardock, uncharacteristically, hesitates.. Something about him reminds him of his own son.

Which is just enough for Granolah to run away. Bardock could still easily kill the boy....but he just doesn't. And he walks away.

To me that's a much better way highlighting that what Bardock did was an impulsive decision, without resorting to making him softer.

This chapter sloppy in a way that I felt the rest of Super manages to avoid. I'm not some guy who gets bent all out of shape on what is or isn't canon--I just want a good story. And I think its massively disappointing that this is where this arc leads to. And its doing that thing a lot of long running series (particularly comic books) do is go back and make everything connect with everything. Rather than the storytelling doing the groundwork to make you care, it does rely on fanservice to do the heavy lifting. And that is lazy.

[PurestEvil]

I honestly think I would see this chapter better if Bardock was the one who killed Flayk. Would have given him a badass entrance and a greyer morality

[omaro34]

Those grunts that Bardock fought in the TV special, the same ones that killed his crew made a cameo in this chapter if I'm not mistaken.

[Magnificent Ponta]

I dunno, I quite like the fact that, despite Vegeta's assumption that Goku gets something of his character from his father, the story actually makes clear that Bardock is the one being challenged and changed in an unexpected (and in this case, undesired) way by Goku, even without Goku consciously doing anything to make that happen - that is, just like Goku has done with so many other characters in Dragon Ball, to varying degrees. There's just something about him that makes people confront themselves, even against their previous inclinations, and there always has been.

While it's not some amazing thing that makes the Chapter anything really special, I do think it's a neat little extra variation on something that's well-established in Dragon Ball as a whole, and which has continued to be highlighted as relevant as recently as the previous arc (and which ties in further with Bardock's decision in Minus and Broly). I enjoyed that.

[Koitsukai]

Those grunts that Bardock fought in the TV special, the same ones that killed his crew made a cameo in this chapter if I'm not mistaken.

Yeah, I knew I've seen them before, they are Dodoria's crew, I thought they were on Namek lol. Another nod at the TV special from Toyo.

[omaro34]

Those grunts that Bardock fought in the TV special, the same ones that killed his crew made a cameo in this chapter if I'm not mistaken.

Yeah, I knew I've seen them before, they are Dodoria's crew, I thought they were on Namek lol. Another nod at the TV special from Toyo.

They were indeed Dodoria's crew. Looks like non-cannon material influences canon material, haha.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liG91qNLAmg

[OLKv3]

Well, what does Elec need that he doesn't already have? Elec's trade is selling planets...but would he want to just have every planet easy to steal?

Maybe he wants more planets to steal? Insuring ghat he will have work for years to come?

Freeza revived and took over again, so Elec wants him and Granolah out of the picture so he can maintain his rule

[PurestEvil]

Those grunts that Bardock fought in the TV special, the same ones that killed his crew made a cameo in this chapter if I'm not mistaken.

[Captain Awesome]

The redemption arc no one asked for.

Ugh.

[kemuri07]

I dunno, I quite like the fact that, despite Vegeta's assumption that Goku gets something of his character from his father, the story actually makes clear that Bardock is the one being challenged and changed in an unexpected (and in this case, undesired) way by Goku, even without Goku consciously doing anything to make that happen - that is, just like Goku has done with so many other characters in Dragon Ball, to varying degrees. There's just something about him that makes people confront themselves, even against their previous inclinations, and there always has been.

While it's not some amazing thing that makes the Chapter anything really special, I do think it's a neat little extra variation on something that's well-established in Dragon Ball as a whole, and which has continued to be highlighted as relevant as recently as the previous arc (and which ties in further with Bardock's decision in Minus and Broly). I enjoyed that.

I think thats' a pretty decent reading; maybe that's what they were going for.

I just have an issue with the execution.

[Lord Beerus]

Random and scattered thoughts of Chapter 77:

GOD...

....

....

....DAMNIT.

This chapter was exactly what I feared... and unnecessary crowbarring in of a character who has so been so divorced from his initial inception that it has a knock-on effect on how you may perceive the story.

I made my opinion(s) on how much I resent the revised romanticisation of Bardock's character and I stand by it:

By and large, defanging Goku's parentage by making Bardock a more "heroic" character rather than generic, nameless, nobody Saiyan who thought as little of Goku from the moment he was born -- no less like the rest of the Saiyans and Freeza armies who sent Goku away as a forgotten afterthought because he was considered expendable trash -- SO MUCH of the thematic punch of Goku's characterization for a good chunk of the entire story is watered down quite badly.

Goku's entire "Even the lowest class born can outdo an elite with hard work" speech to Vegeta -- which one of the most thematical powerful and defining moments, not just Goku's character, but for the series as a whole -- is also THOROUGHLY weakened in its nuance and its meaning if Goku isn't just some generic nobody amongst his people whom even his own father had thrown away and written off.

Bardock is a character that is not meant to be saving people. He's meant to be a nobody. A piece of shit. A space pirate in the purest form. That's the point. That's what makes the whole concept of Goku being the antithesis to his brutish, uncaring, bloodthirsty race work and what makes Goku an even more nuanced character than he appears to be. It's what makes the underlying theme of classism in the Saiyan arc so potent and relevant. It's what makes Goku accepting his heritage in the Freeza arc after Vegeta is killed by Freeza such a powerful and poignant character moment. It's what makes Goku entire journey as a martial artist on Earth so unique, given the circumstances. By crowbarring in story elements from Dragon Ball Minus, especially regarding how Bardock is written in that story... you lose all of that.

The icing on this shit cake was Vegeta's comment about how Goku's soft-hearted nature must run in the family. This really kneecaps the unique dichotomy Goku development had with his race. It now seems less like a case of pure luck and a wonderfully random set of circumstances that were responsible for Goku's unorthodox mental and physical growth, but more of an inevitability. Goku has become more of a character who has destined to be the kind-hearted martial artist that he is, rather than one who organically became one.

At least the Heeters are making some moves... I wonder what they'll wish for...

Overall thoughts... Bardock should have stayed dead.

[Koitsukai]

On a second read, I've enjoyed it a little more. It seems what triggers Bardock could be seeing a mother caring for her son, which made him remember the moment he met and named his son, a situation portrayed in a way that seems there might be more to it. Maybe a previous situation that made him appreciate his newborn a little more than usual? if Gine is surprised, I'm surprised.

I wonder why the Heata's secret plan was never revealed by Bardock? maybe he promised to keep his mouth shut and not kill Gas in order to save Granny, and Elecc instead "hired" Granola and they shook hands. Bardock keeps his mouth shut, Elecc tells Freeza the saiyans are plotting something. End of saiyans.

From what I've heard, Toyo has always liked Bardock, so I don't think he'll miss the chance of drawing Bardock in a fight with a character he came up with, at least for a few panels or flashbacks from Gas, who is still a mistery.

[Grimlock]

It now seems less like a case of pure luck and a wonderfully random set of circumstances that were responsible for Goku's unorthodox mental and physical growth, but more of an inevitability. Goku has become more of a character who has destined to be the kind-hearted martial artist that he is, rather than one who organically became one.

Overall thoughts... Bardock should have stayed dead.

The subtitle for Dragon Ball Minus is "The Departure of the Fated Child", isn't it? The signs, or better yet, the actual words were there. Spoken/written for seven years now.

Why blaming/pointing fingers at Bardock, though? If the biggest problem here is how this affects Goku, then it must be said that Toei has never established Goku to be a "fated child" (even after Bardock's supposed death), all of this come from a single man. Unless you want to argue that Bardock becoming Super Saiyan somehow also establishes Goku as a "fated child". If that's the case, then I do have to wonder if Yamoshi's kids (if he had any) were also destined to become Super Saiyan (and if that was the case, I doubt Super Saiyan would become a legend, you'd have two or more capable of transforming...). Unless you prefer to ignore Yamoshi stuff since it hasn't appeared in the series yet, that is... My point would be that the way Bardock is written is irrelevant, Goku could still be this different entity by circumstances and they could continue to use Bardock character without affecting Goku in this sense.

[FortuneSSJ]

-Chapter 77-

I guess Bardock sparing some people is okay, as long as it's made clear he still did the evil stuff the saiyans were supposed to do.

Vegeta comment about Goku's soft heart was unnecessary though. At this point he didn't need to hit his head to become a good person. Where Raditz's bad side comes from then?! Gine?!

It's funny when it's Toyotaro's turn to come up with a story (Moro arc) as a fan and someone who cares he tries his best to not retcon anything, while with Toriyama is usually - "How many retcons I'm gonna do in this movie/arc?!"

The flashback was long as I wanted and doesn't seem to be ended yet. We still don't know what happened to Gas in that night. Bardock defeat him seems obvious, but I want to see how humiliating it was for him to still think about that.

[Ziegander]

The crocodile tears here are so delicious.

How pissed are you all going to be when the next time we see Bardock, in the flashback Gas has from 40 years ago, he enters the False Super Saiyan state in order to overcome Gas' superior battle power? Can't wait for all of the salt.

[Totamo]

tori is the king of inconsistency but bardock is the one thing he won't go back on.

[LoganForkHands73]

Random and scattered thoughts of Chapter 77:

GOD...DAMMIT

This chapter was exactly what I feared... and unnecessary crowbarring in of a character who has so been so divorced from his initial inception that it has a knock-on effect on how you may perceive the story.

I made my opinion(s) on how much I resent the revised romanticisation of Bardock's character and I stand by it:

By and large, defanging Goku's parentage by making Bardock a more "heroic" character rather than generic, nameless, nobody Saiyan who thought as little of Goku from the moment he was born -- no less like the rest of the Saiyans and Freeza armies who sent Goku away as a forgotten afterthought because he was considered expendable trash -- SO MUCH of the thematic punch of Goku's characterization for a good chunk of the entire story is watered down quite badly.

Goku's entire "Even the lowest class born can outdo an elite with hard work" speech to Vegeta -- which one of the most thematical powerful and defining moments, not just Goku's character, but for the series as a whole -- is also THOROUGHLY weakened in its nuance and its meaning if Goku isn't just some generic nobody amongst his people whom even his own father had thrown away and written off.

Bardock is a character that is not meant to be saving people. He's meant to be a nobody. A piece of shit. A space pirate in the purest form. That's the point. That's what makes the whole concept of Goku being the antithesis to his brutish, uncaring, bloodthirsty race work and what makes Goku an even more nuanced character than he appears to be. It's what makes the underlying theme of classism in the Saiyan arc so potent and relevant. It's what makes Goku accepting his heritage in the Freeza arc after Vegeta is killed by Freeza such a powerful and poignant character moment. It's what makes Goku entire journey as a martial artist on Earth so unique, given the circumstances. By crowbarring in story elements from Dragon Ball Minus, especially regarding how Bardock is written in that story... you lose all of that.

The icing on this shit cake was Vegeta's comment about how Goku's soft-hearted nature must run in the family. This really kneecaps the unique dichotomy Goku development had with his race. It now seems less like a case of pure luck and a wonderfully random set of circumstances that were responsible for Goku's unorthodox mental and physical growth, but more of an inevitability. Goku has become more of a character who has destined to be the kind-hearted martial artist that he is, rather than one who organically became one.

At least the Heeters are making some moves... I wonder what they'll wish for...

Overall thoughts... Bardock should have stayed dead.

Bit dramatic but I gotta say, I'm with you on this one.

Part of Bardock's appeal on a superficial level is the cognitive dissonance of the fact that this evil murdering space pirate has the face and voice of our beloved protagonist. But when Bardock gets that dramatic doorway entrance in this chapter, decades of instinctive knowledge of the storytelling guidebooks tell you that this guy must be heroic and trustworthy. I was almost hoping that Toyotaro would subvert the trope somewhat and have him at least attempt to attack Granola and Muzeli before eventually relenting. But no, it's all played painfully straight. Bardock's presented as a fullblown saviour. It almost feels like Toyotaro is scared to defile Goku's pure image by showing his identical father's dark side, but that doesn't make sense considering he gave us an entire arc about an evil Goku doppelganger only a few years ago...

I'm glad that my overall prediction of Bardock merely getting a flash of conscience so he can sleep at night came true, rather than something dumb like him being Muzeli's secret baby-daddy (apologies for seeding that idea in the thread, guiltyyy). Bardock seeing his own family in the Cerealians felt almost too obvious and hamfisted, but it at least makes sense. They just go way, way too far with it here. Bardock wondering aloud why he's going to such extreme lengths to save a bunch of strangers feels like more of a meta commentary on why he's suddenly being forced to act so OOC rather than an organic development. Seeing him in that cloak felt like something out of Dragon Ball Heroes. We also have Monaito acting like he's known both Muzeli and Bardock for years rather than a few minutes. All a bit trite and rushed if you ask me.

I think the only option at this point is to accept that this Bardock ain't the same guy from the TV special. However, this chapter does more to undermine the events of Minus than anything else. There, Bardock is still portrayed as a planet-ravaging asshole when he's on the job and his one selfless act to save his son is meant to be a shocking development. But apparently, he's been going around risking his neck to save random kids for ages.