"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by GoodboiRaditz » Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:02 pm

Ok so basically what's happened is that the heeters
having conversation about betraying frieza and
Bardock heard the whole thing and Heeters figured
out that Bardock heard the whole about thing and
then so they came up with a plan to wipe out the
entire race by telling a super saiyan legend to frieza
to make him anxious about saiyans so they won't be
exposed by a saiyan from telling frieza about the
heeters I’m starting to see patterns here.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Super Saiyan Swagger » Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:10 pm

The way Bardock was written in this chapter was consistent with how he was written in Broly and Minus. So if you're still complaining about Toriyama's take on the character after all these years, I don't really know what to tell you. This is Toriyama's Bardock.

Now, if you're upset with how they keep trying to involve him in the story just because of his popularity in the fandom? I can kinda understand that. I'm also hesitant when they decide to do stuff like that, but if it's done well then I'm fine with it. Despite it being a slowburn, I actually enjoyed this chapter.

It's nice seeing an invasion unfolding in detail (as fucked up as that sounds). I don't think we've seen something like this since the Namek arc. That shot of the Namekians getting rounded up and murdered was fucked up and I loved it. Nice reminder that the Saiyans and Freeza's army are a group of savages.

I hope we get some kind of explanation as to why Bardock decided to call Goku 'Kakarot'. He seemed to put some thought into the name. I also really liked that the meere sight of seeing Goku in the nursing capsule influenced him to save Granolah and his mother. What we've learned through Bardock both in this story and in Broly is that the smallest choices influenced by sympathy can create the most profound differences for the future.

I do wish that Toyotaro would pick up the pace, especially in a less action-y chapter like this one. We don't really need an entire page dedicated to a shot of Bardock or those panels that depict slow movement like zooming in on Granolah and his mother at the beginning. He does that a lot and it's starting to get a little irritating. He still hasn't matched Toriyama's snappiness, but he's definitely improving. I read through some of the earlier chapters of Super and goddamn he's gotten so much better.

Good chapter. I'm really enjoying this arc and it hasn't really stumbled (yet).

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by omaro34 » Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:21 pm

The pacing of this arc so far is rather slow. This entire chapter was a flashback and what preceded it was a fight that lasted one too many chapters.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:42 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:35 pm I think the only option at this point is to accept that this Bardock ain't the same guy from the TV special.
If the powers that be insist on his insertion, as they evidently have, I don't think he should be the same guy. For me, it's about the lesser evil... pun intended.

Minus, in isolation, isn't a compelling story or even much of a story at all. It's just lazy background exposition meant to explain what kind of person Bardock is and why Goku was sent to Earth, at least from Toriyama's perspective. Super's 2018 film would later rectify this by incorporating Minus into a larger story while tying it into that story's central message. People don't have to like this version of Bardock -- that 90's TV special certainly isn't going anywhere, if it's their cup of tea -- but within the framework of Super, he works well enough narratively.

Now let's look at additional stories. The only one featuring Toriyama's Bardock is this current DBS chapter, and it actually does a rather fine job of enhancing this version of the character rather than harming it. So far, anyway. Vegeta might claim that Goku's kindness "runs in the family", but the actual story tells you that it was Goku who influenced Bardock. I have my own reservations about how necessary it all seems, but at least it doesn't seriously undermine anything and stays true to that common thread of Goku unwittingly changing others.

The TV special is wildly inconsistent. It tries to supplement the Saiyan arc by making Bardock unremarkable, but then immediately shits on that premise within a single scene where characters explicitly talk about how remarkable he is. It wants to paint Bardock as this "tragic" figure, but then instantly backpedals on all of that by allowing him to see that his son will prevail against Freeza in the end. It's a triumphant victory, not a tragedy. Bardock's future sight doesn't enhance the story, it cheapens it. It devalues and strips away any irony the special might have gone for by providing Bardock with sweet relief in the end. As the (poorly phrased, to be honest) proverb goes, it wants to have its cake and eat it too.

Let's take another look at additional stories. Every single one featuring Toei's Bardock (Episode of Bardock, Heroes, etc.) has actively degraded that version of the character even further. Now he can go Super Saiyan and become responsible for the legend in the distant past! Now he can travel through time at will while wearing a goofy mask!

It's bonkers, man. Much as I think Bardock's appearances in Super should have lived and died with DBS: Broly, expounding on him rather than his "original" incarnation is the best approach you can possibly take at this point.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:34 am

I wouldn't pay much attention to Geets' comment, after all he is not the Emperor of Truth nor he has the whole deck of cards. He is just responding to a story that has Goku's dad doing stuff Goku tends to do: spare people. That it runs in the family is something you could say, after all, even if it's just an exception from Bardock's part. For a saiyan prince who only knew savage saiyans, I think it's fair.
The narrative is still the same, Goku was a wild child that was going to kill Son Gohan if it wasn't for that bump on the head. That won't change no matter how many bullshit background stories Toriyama gives Jor-El, I mean Bardock.

We still don't know for sure what made Bardock do what he did(sure, we are taken back to when he named Goku, but that moment also hints at a previous situation or something odd going on), it seems there's stuff still left to be revealed (maybe he killed a baby before meeting baby Goku?).
I'm taking this chapter as the first half of a two-parter, there should be a follow up to all the stuff dropped in this one, like Bardock eavesdropping Eleccs' scheme, and Gas feeling humiliated and holding a grudge 40 years later.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:32 am

Lord Beerus wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:04 pm Random and scattered thoughts of Chapter 77:

GOD...

....

....

....DAMNIT.


This chapter was exactly what I feared... and unnecessary crowbarring in of a character who has so been so divorced from his initial inception that it has a knock-on effect on how you may perceive the story.

I made my opinion(s) on how much I resent the revised romanticisation of Bardock's character and I stand by it:
By and large, defanging Goku's parentage by making Bardock a more "heroic" character rather than generic, nameless, nobody Saiyan who thought as little of Goku from the moment he was born -- no less like the rest of the Saiyans and Freeza armies who sent Goku away as a forgotten afterthought because he was considered expendable trash -- SO MUCH of the thematic punch of Goku's characterization for a good chunk of the entire story is watered down quite badly.

Goku's entire "Even the lowest class born can outdo an elite with hard work" speech to Vegeta -- which one of the most thematical powerful and defining moments, not just Goku's character, but for the series as a whole -- is also THOROUGHLY weakened in its nuance and its meaning if Goku isn't just some generic nobody amongst his people whom even his own father had thrown away and written off.

Bardock is a character that is not meant to be saving people. He's meant to be a nobody. A piece of shit. A space pirate in the purest form. That's the point. That's what makes the whole concept of Goku being the antithesis to his brutish, uncaring, bloodthirsty race work and what makes Goku an even more nuanced character than he appears to be. It's what makes the underlying theme of classism in the Saiyan arc so potent and relevant. It's what makes Goku accepting his heritage in the Freeza arc after Vegeta is killed by Freeza such a powerful and poignant character moment. It's what makes Goku entire journey as a martial artist on Earth so unique, given the circumstances. By crowbarring in story elements from Dragon Ball Minus, especially regarding how Bardock is written in that story... you lose all of that.
The icing on this shit cake was Vegeta's comment about how Goku's soft-hearted nature must run in the family. This really kneecaps the unique dichotomy Goku development had with his race. It now seems less like a case of pure luck and a wonderfully random set of circumstances that were responsible for Goku's unorthodox mental and physical growth, but more of an inevitability. Goku has become more of a character who has destined to be the kind-hearted martial artist that he is, rather than one who organically became one.

At least the Heeters are making some moves... I wonder what they'll wish for...

Overall thoughts... Bardock should have stayed dead.
ALL OF THIS.

I do think its a bit disingenuous for some people to dismiss all of this as "the whinings of fanboys." Normally I would agree, but straight up this chapter is bad. It is bad on a fundamental storytelling level that needlessly complicates shit for the sake of "loooooore." But you're absolutely on point about this retroactively shitting on "the entire point" of Goku's character development. Every time Super deems it necessary to retcon things it is almost usually for the worst. Either its pointless (Beerus being the one to get Freeza to blow up Planet Vegeta) or outright stupid (lol S-cells).

It's ironic that all of this is coming from a man who claims that Goku is not meant to be Superman; because oh boy they really trying hard to make him seem like Superman.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:17 am

Mr Baggins wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:42 pm
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:35 pm I think the only option at this point is to accept that this Bardock ain't the same guy from the TV special.
If the powers that be insist on his insertion, as they evidently have, I don't think he should be the same guy. For me, it's about the lesser evil... pun intended.

Minus, in isolation, isn't a compelling story or even much of a story at all. It's just lazy background exposition meant to explain what kind of person Bardock is and why Goku was sent to Earth, at least from Toriyama's perspective. Super's 2018 film would later rectify this by incorporating Minus into a larger story while tying it into that story's central message. People don't have to like this version of Bardock -- that 90's TV special certainly isn't going anywhere, if it's their cup of tea -- but within the framework of Super, he works well enough narratively.

Now let's look at additional stories. The only one featuring Toriyama's Bardock is this current DBS chapter, and it actually does a rather fine job of enhancing this version of the character rather than harming it. So far, anyway. Vegeta might claim that Goku's kindness "runs in the family", but the actual story tells you that it was Goku who influenced Bardock. I have my own reservations about how necessary it all seems, but at least it doesn't seriously undermine anything and stays true to that common thread of Goku unwittingly changing others.

The TV special is wildly inconsistent. It tries to supplement the Saiyan arc by making Bardock unremarkable, but then immediately shits on that premise within a single scene where characters explicitly talk about how remarkable he is. It wants to paint Bardock as this "tragic" figure, but then instantly backpedals on all of that by allowing him to see that his son will prevail against Freeza in the end. It's a triumphant victory, not a tragedy. Bardock's future sight doesn't enhance the story, it cheapens it. It devalues and strips away any irony the special might have gone for by providing Bardock with sweet relief in the end. As the (poorly phrased, to be honest) proverb goes, it wants to have its cake and eat it too.

Let's take another look at additional stories. Every single one featuring Toei's Bardock (Episode of Bardock, Heroes, etc.) has actively degraded that version of the character even further. Now he can go Super Saiyan and become responsible for the legend in the distant past! Now he can travel through time at will while wearing a goofy mask!

It's bonkers, man. Much as I think Bardock's appearances in Super should have lived and died with DBS: Broly, expounding on him rather than his "original" incarnation is the best approach you can possibly take at this point.
I think that's all fair enough and I agree with much of it, but I wasn't primarily trying to defend the TV special.

The clairvoyance bullshit was always the worst part of Toei's original Bardock. I vastly prefer the idea that Bardock was intelligent and observant enough to deduce Freeza's intentions from simple logical reasoning and a helping of gut instinct. The idea that Bardock would've been as clueless about the impending holocaust without some alien intervention is a fine one, but the execution, as you say, is lacklustre and cheapening. At the very least, I think some sense of tragedy was preserved as Toei Bardock was only given a glimpse of Kakarrot facing Freeza, but no hint at the fight's outcome, so he only got some small solace in death. If we get further into the overexposure of the character in Toei and Namco's expanded universe, the original Bardock has indeed been butchered beyond recognition.

Anyway, my main point was that this chapter may alienate fans of Toriyama's take on Bardock in some ways. There's no way around it, making him the saviour of Granola and Monaito as well as the guy who apparently fought and defeated Gas is a typical contrived Toei/Namco move to make the character seem more special and important than he really is. I get a feeling there's a bit of a double standard going on here with some takes. This probably wouldn't fly for a second in any non-Toriyama-approved spin-off.

The irony of Goku influencing Bardock even as a baby rather than vice versa is quite clever, I will say I like that detail.

Ya know... a part of me wonders if it might've been better if Toriyama gave his version of Goku's dad a different name entirely. Might that have solved most of the controversies? I think there is some merit in criticising a reimagining of a pre-existing character when they act in ways that betray the original work. In this case, I'd include Minus in that as well, as at least in Minus there were brief scenes of Bardock shitmixing some random aliens alongside Leek that felt somewhat consistent with an average Saiyan lifestyle, plus we got a clearer sense of his sheer unremarkability in Saiyan society.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Neo-Makaiōshin » Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:48 am

kemuri07 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:32 amEvery time Super deems it necessary to retcon things it is almost usually for the worst. Either its pointless (Beerus being the one to get Freeza to blow up Planet Vegeta) or outright stupid (lol S-cells).
S-cells have yet to be introduced in any form in Super, they have only been mentioned in Toriyama interviews.
Dragon Ball was always a kid series and fans should stop being in denial.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:03 am

Mr Baggins wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:56 pm If you've ever read Naruto, watch this become a classic Sasuke moment. :lol:
I only hate Naruto as intensely as I do because I used to love Naruto. Read it all as it was coming out. Chapter 436, the best chapter of that series, ruined the series by setting you up with questions that never got truly answered. But if not for that chapter I would've stopped reading after how that arc ended. :lol:
The Monkey King wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:34 pmYeah, silly me.
All you did was twist yourself into pretzels trying to justify the Bardock special's inclusion into Toriyama's dragonball. The special wasn't. I hate using the term "canon" because it's so nebulous and has lost practically all meaning within this fandom, but as far as the Dragonball Toriyama drew and wrote, the Bardock special is outside of that. He can like it, much like he'll say GT was a fun side adventure, that's all the Bardock special amounts to.

The Bardock Special is no more part of Toriyama's Dragonball than The Force Awakens is part of George Lucas' Star Wars.
There's a reason why Dragon Ball Kai
Because it's a cheap production trying to make itself seem like a worthwhile product separate from the original series.
Oh I'm sorry, I must have missed the part where Bardock actively tried to change the future in DB Minus... :roll:
You're absolutely right. My bad. I just assumed this discussion was ignoring the random futuresight psychic powers the special gave him in order to drag him from plot point to plot point instead of having his own agency do so. Yeah, sorry, this totally does away with that.

You won't see me complaining about that though.
Bardock having to share the same wretched, doomed fate as the species he so casually wiped out is a far more compelling narrative than any of the Nu-Bardock shit we've received since DB Minus.
I don't find that compelling though, brother brother. I don't find Bardock sharing the fate of a race we have no connection to as an audience all that thrilling or worthy of intensive thought. I WOULD find it worthy of thought if that race was more than just a plot device. I would certainly find it more worthy of thought if Bardock's crew was paid off to kill him in a back alley by Frieza. Why are these two scenarios more compelling to me? Because they would involve characters we have emotional investment in.

But this is getting into fanfiction territory, which is trite.
I read your "critique" and I'm not impressed in the slightestI.
That's too bad. I quite liked it.
Goku said "A low class warrior can surpass an elite if he works hard enough"

Nothing about Bardock's power level in the Special contradicts this, he was a low class warrior, who survived some suicide missions by the skin of his teeth, got a bunch on zenkais and got stronger... He was a low class warrior who worked hard for his power level... what's the issue??


The issue is if Goku's father could do it, then it becomes a blood trait. Class is inherited. If Goku's father can match up to King Vegeta, then Goku's father is as strong as the two strongest saiyans in their history, which is patently absurd for what the Saiyan arc presents.

Contrary to what the fandom might think or espouse, Goku is the main character of Dragonball and this is his story. He defied the shackles of his race like no one had before and proved that a low-class nothing like him who his race would throw away can be the best of them. Having a super prodigious father who did the same thing takes away from what makes Goku special.
Where's Radditz's 10,000 plus power level then??
This is the issue. If Raditz had it in his genes to be able to be as strong as King Vegeta and can't do it, that means it's not Saiyan society that's flawed: it's Raditz the individual that's flawed. The conflict of the first arc of "Z" is that Saiyan society is brutal, and operates a caste system—all bad.

Also, curious how you quote so many things Toriyama said but choose to ignore him saying Bardock would never be able to be anything but a low-class warrior.
Meanwhile Goku has supposedly 'inherited' his kind heart from Bardock. I guess Goku's good nature was just DESTINY and nothing to do with a bump on the head. Bravo Toriyama :lol:
No, that's poor reasoning on your part. Kindness is a trait saiyan society despises. Even Vegeta, who has developed considerably since the Saiyan arc, still scoffs when he says Goku inherited some softness. If anything, inheriting some sense of mercy makes Goku even more alien to his race, and more in opposition to what Vegeta and the saiyans represented in the Saiyan arc.

But ignoring all that, I find it goddamn bizarre how literal this fandom takes everything. How do you measure kindness? You can't. You can measure power level. Vegeta was just saying shit based on what he heard from this story. This is just him giving his analysis..
In DBS Broly he's sent with a melodramatic Superman-esque spiel and told NOT to look at the moon by his caring parents. The story of the saiyan saga is made into a joke, Goku's kind nature is supposed to contrast to the nature of his race as we witness the callous actions of Radditz, Nappa and Vegeta, but how are we supposed to take this seriously when his parents were just a couple of softies?
I feel like my unimpressive post more than sufficiently goes into this, and why it works better for the Saiyan arc, so I won't bother rehashing all that here.

But also, a few pages back I said other things.

Don't cling to a tv special you like so much that you reject what the original author wants to do. Or cling the fuck to it; it's your life. No amount of "retconning" will remove the tv special from existence; it'll always be there, dawg. But while you rewatch that, I'll be over here looking at what Toriyama deems to be the better story, and as far as I'm concerned, he's right.
Yuji wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:55 pm. Realizing the Saiyans were individuals and not a barbaric tribe of programmed robots probably helps.
I hope this isn't it. Vegeta isn't some lame neoliberal. He understands systems.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:41 am

So Monaito knew about the Heeters connection with the murder of their people and failed to mention this to Granolah?
Did they not talk business or something, otherwise this is a glaring plot hole.

The Heeters appearance in the past is also somewhat forced, seems to be there to justify a whole of chapter of Gas vs Bardock; which is my prediction for the next chapter.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:05 pm

LightBing wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:41 am Did they not talk business or something, otherwise this is a glaring plot hole.
I wish people didn't look at stories this way. CinemaSins and other such channels have rotted story analysis to this level.

Instead of jumping to the "this is a plothole" conclusion, why not look at the characters? Why would Monaito tell an emotionally unstable, angry man that the super powerful galactic warlords who wouldn't hesitate to kill him are actually the ones who killed his mom?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:07 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:17 am I think that's all fair enough and I agree with much of it, but I wasn't primarily trying to defend the TV special.
To be clear, I was just piggybacking off that part of your post because I've seen a lot of people mention it.

Not sure I'd agree with the notion that this chapter betrays Minus Bardock's character, especially given his surprised reaction to having saved three people he was supposed to murder, but I do think it all seems a bit pandering at the moment. Jury's still out for me.
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:17 am I think there is some merit in criticising a reimagining of a pre-existing character when they act in ways that betray the original work.
I'd wholeheartedly agree with that under almost any other circumstance, but in this case, it's Toriyama doing the revising. As the original creator, Dragon Ball is his baby and he understands it more than anyone. He alone has the right to change specific characters not conceived by him if they don't fit his interpretation in his story.

But even just preferentially speaking, I'm totally on board with Toriyama's direction of Bardock on principle. I've already said a lot about the TV special in this thread, and I have a whole slew of other problems I haven't even mentioned yet (including Bardock's characterization, or lack thereof, which I've touched on elsewhere). I won't pretend that Minus by itself is perfect by any means, but it sowed the seeds for what would become a movie I found emotionally impactful in a variety of ways that the original special could never dream of measuring up to, in my view.

With that said, I guess my point is that Toriyama's Bardock is a relatively blank slate in comparison to Toei's. The latter sits in a marred condition because of all the franchise's additions over the years, now akin to an old beat-up children's toy that's been chewed up by the family dog and dragged through the mud and back. The former is still relatively untainted on its own terms; the next chapter could screw everything up and totally undercut what even Minus/Broly tried to accomplish, but at least that's the first strike, ya know?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jinto » Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:18 pm

Ah shit...Here we go again !

I like this chapter just for Raditz being in it.
Let's make something clear guys for the bazillionth time : """"""Bardock IS.NOT.A.GOOD.GUY""""""".
Did we read the same chapter ? It seems many of you just see Bardock saving some leftover and cry that he is portrayed as """""good!!!!"""", The guy and his squad just ANNIHILATED A POPULATION FOR GOD SAKE !

The nuance here is that instead of being a straight up "bad guy", he is a guy that is driven by instinct (kind of like a baby) and got "infected" by Gine personality .
Vegeta is wrong, Goku's "kindness" doesn't come from Bardock, it comes from Gine that "infected"Bardock.

My problem here is Bardock's look, he is drawn like a goofball Toyotaro-Goku instead of the more angry face in the special.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:29 pm

TKA wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:05 pm
LightBing wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:41 am Did they not talk business or something, otherwise this is a glaring plot hole.
I wish people didn't look at stories this way. CinemaSins and other such channels have rotted story analysis to this level.

Instead of jumping to the "this is a plothole" conclusion, why not look at the characters? Why would Monaito tell an emotionally unstable, angry man that the super powerful galactic warlords who wouldn't hesitate to kill him are actually the ones who killed his mom?
Why wouldn't Monaito find a way of protecting Granolah from all the described above?
Allowing him to work under such people is putting him in danger. Besides how gross the situation is, working for the people who personally killed his mother and their race.
This reveal is justification for Granolah to turn on Monaito.

I didn't consider your scenario because of all the poison attached.

Also dial back the condescending tone. If my analysis is flawed or superficial your second paragraph would be enough for some perspective. The first just makes not want to engage, my opinion is not filtered after watching exterior opinions if that was the implication by naming these channels.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:30 pm

LightBing wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:41 am So Monaito knew about the Heeters connection with the murder of their people and failed to mention this to Granolah?
Did they not talk business or something, otherwise this is a glaring plot hole.

The Heeters appearance in the past is also somewhat forced, seems to be there to justify a whole of chapter of Gas vs Bardock; which is my prediction for the next chapter.
I'm guessing he feared he'd go nuts and try to kill them while being much weaker than them. He's a hothead, he learned about the DBs, and went and became the strongest that same day.
If he learned that his "employers" killed his mother, he'd definitely go after them, and it seems they've been dealing with Elecc for a long time now, probably for all of Granny's life.

My prediction is this will all tie up to the saiyan extinction.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jack Bz » Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:24 pm

This chapter left me wondering why Monaito didn't use the dragon balls to wish everyone back right after they were killed.

I have a feeling that he will try to use the dragon balls next chapter, but something will happen that will explain how the balls got separated.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:29 pm

LightBing wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:41 am So Monaito knew about the Heeters connection with the murder of their people and failed to mention this to Granolah?
Did they not talk business or something, otherwise this is a glaring plot hole.

The Heeters appearance in the past is also somewhat forced, seems to be there to justify a whole of chapter of Gas vs Bardock; which is my prediction for the next chapter.
It's not a plot hole, Monaito didn't want Granolah to run off and get himself killed seeking revenge. He's already denounced the idea of revenge to Granolah, and warned him that having power is going to attract trouble. Monaito just wants to live in peace and not have any more of his friends die.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:34 pm

Remember guys, it's not a plot hole if the rest of the story is empty
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Rest in Peace, Toriyama-san

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:34 pm

Jack Bz wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:24 pm This chapter left me wondering why Monaito didn't use the dragon balls to wish everyone back right after they were killed.

I have a feeling that he will try to use the dragon balls next chapter, but something will happen that will explain how the balls got separated.
Monaito and Granolah discuss this in chapter 69. Monaito sees the Dragon Balls as something very special that shouldn't be used outside the ritual they were intended for, and he also didn't want to kick out the Sugarians who had made the planet their home.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:35 pm

Jack Bz wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:24 pm This chapter left me wondering why Monaito didn't use the dragon balls to wish everyone back right after they were killed.

I have a feeling that he will try to use the dragon balls next chapter, but something will happen that will explain how the balls got separated.
I had a similar question, but the planet is about to get swarmed with Freeza forces, Freeza himself, Sugarians, and they are about to re-build the planet, so probably it's not safe to use them so soon.

Probably they got left alone by the time it was already too late to revive them, there's only a 1-year window to revive people IIRC, with these DBs maybe that isn't the case, or there's even a smaller window.

If the DBs got turned into stone and Monaito had to renew them later, it would've been better I think. But we need to wait for the second half of this flashback. There's a lot yet to be answered.

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