"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Cipher]

It off topic, but given we are getting more color chapters, is there anyway to read them online or do you have to buy them physically

They’re only available digitally, and only from Japanese e-bookstores (Kindle store, manga apps, etc.). Some may require proxy addresses, but you can work around that to get them outside of Japan, if you don’t mind them being in Japanese.

Shueisha has a number of such digital-only colored lines for manga. Getting print releases a la DB is the exception, and even that may only have happened because they kind of pre-dated the overall initiative.

The digital colored volumes are currently coming out once a month, but at this rate they’ll catch up, and then probably trail the ongoing print black and white releases by just a bit.

Goku had to do the same thing to use Kaioken. I'm not going to keep going deep into all this. It's been pointed out countless times how much Toyo has stolen ideas from every other arc/saga in the series and from other shows/manga. Even so far as copying imagery from the games. I'm sure everyone recalls the crater formed when Merus-Moro clashed with PUI Goku.

Oh come on.

[MCDaveG]

I have to share my positivity here about this chapter... I had a problem with Moro’s last form and the techniques lately, but I have enjoyed the Merus’ character arc and the connection with Goku, where Goku to me felt and feels like the Goku of old.
I was kinda conflicted about the Senzu being repeated again, but as everyone said about Goku being true to his character, it’s right.

Also, Goku is not a hero in a western sense, but he is actually this accidental, or let’s call him, Wuxia hero. He isn’t selfless, but he has this strong warrior code. He craves challenge, doesn’t kill needlesly unless he has to, because he likes and respects strong opponents and is fair about the fights... starting with his line that he’s not sure about SSJGod as he didn’t aqcuire it himself... he also cares about his fights not getting his friends or the place he fights on, in the crosshairs. And that’s how I like Dragon Ball since beginning, tackling this Wuxia themes and tough Goku is a fool and pretty much, not that socially smart, he’s kind, fair and fighter with a strong morality about it.
I liked this chapter in it’s finalized form and I am again excited about this arc, as it nears end and I am curious about the ending of this all.

[Kinokima]

I think one of my biggest disconnects about Goku being excited about Moro’s strength is Moro is actually NOT a strong opponent. Goku himself brings it up in this chapter when he lectures Moro for never training

I understand Goku’s character being excited by an evil opponent who is actually a strong warrior but that is not Moro. Moro has never fought with his own strength and has only fought with the strength of others. What is there to get excited about?

Even Goku saying Moro is the strongest opponent he ever fought is objectively false. Moro would be nothing without all the power he stole. I guess it depends on how you look at it but I don’t see why Goku would be impressed by Moro’s power in the way he was Freeza or Vegeta for example. The argument seems to be that if Moro trained he would be much stronger, maybe so but you could say that about any Opponent.

I like the theme of earning your power vs stolen power this arc has going for it. But using this arc & this villain to show that Goku sometimes spares opponents doesn’t really work for me.

[BWri]

I think one of my biggest disconnects about Goku being excited about Moro’s strength is Moro is actually NOT a strong opponent. Goku himself brings it up in this chapter when he lectures Moro for never training

I understand Goku’s character being excited by an evil opponent who is actually a strong warrior but that is not Moro. Moro has never fought with his own strength and has only fought with the strength of others. What is there to get excited about?

Yeah, that's the disconnect. Moro not only doesn't rely on his own power, but to get the power he has requires killing people by the millions and ... let's be honest billions. Goku's actions just do not make sense in this chapter no matter how you look at it. Moro is not rival material.

[LightBing]

I reinforce the sentiment. Remove the "magic" from Moro and there's nothing worthwhile for Goku to consider maintaining him for his own satisfaction.

Piccolo, Vegeta and Freeza at the time were ceilings, from his knowledge the only potential challengers. Something which justifies the potential repercussions.
Currently Goku has: Jiren, Hit, Vegeta, Beerus and Broly. Besides all the Hakaishins and Angels he can go challenge if necessary.

I really think it was done for reference sake, this whole chapter really.

[Xeogran]

Moro has never fought with his own strength and has only fought with the strength of others. What is there to get excited about?

Because Genki Dama is a thing and Goku also uses it to get a powered up sphere by the Planet and it's Citizens, yet nobody called him out for that either.

Therefore it's fair game for Moro, who has such a technique as well. Yeah he feds his body with it, but it's same thing.

[Kinokima]

Moro has never fought with his own strength and has only fought with the strength of others. What is there to get excited about?

Because Genki Dama is a thing and Goku also uses it to get a powered up sphere by the Planet and it's Citizens, yet nobody called him out for that either.

Therefore it's fair game for Moro, who has such a technique as well. Yeah he feds his body with it, but it's same thing.

I think that’s a bit of a reach. That’s only one technique Goku uses & usually as a last resort. His entire arsenal isn’t about stealing energy from others like Moro’s is.

For the most part people and planets are unharmed after Goku uses the Spirit Bomb. At the end of the Buu saga everyone was a bit exhausted since so much was needed but they weren’t detrimentally harmed . And also Goku didn’t take, he asked. The energy is freely given not stolen.

[Rebel Instinct]

I think one of my biggest disconnects about Goku being excited about Moro’s strength is Moro is actually NOT a strong opponent. Goku himself brings it up in this chapter when he lectures Moro for never training

I understand Goku’s character being excited by an evil opponent who is actually a strong warrior but that is not Moro. Moro has never fought with his own strength and has only fought with the strength of others. What is there to get excited about?

Even Goku saying Moro is the strongest opponent he ever fought is objectively false. Moro would be nothing without all the power he stole. I guess it depends on how you look at it but I don’t see why Goku would be impressed by Moro’s power in the way he was Freeza or Vegeta for example. The argument seems to be that if Moro trained he would be much stronger, maybe so but you could say that about any Opponent.

I like the theme of earning your power vs stolen power this arc has going for it. But using this arc & this villain to show that Goku sometimes spares opponents doesn’t really work for me.

Yeah, that's the disconnect. Moro not only doesn't rely on his own power, but to get the power he has requires killing people by the millions and ... let's be honest billions. Goku's actions just do not make sense in this chapter no matter how you look at it. Moro is not rival material.

I reinforce the sentiment. Remove the "magic" from Moro and there's nothing worthwhile for Goku to consider maintaining him for his own satisfaction.

Goku's little conversation with Moro about the latter being the toughest/strongest he's ever met actually illustrates several things about Moro's potential and why Goku would be interested in him as an opponent.

For one, Goku isn't thrilled about Moro's stolen power as such, he's marveling at Moro's fighting potential were he to actually train his body and gain power the right way. Think about it: Moro's body was so naturally powerful that it could not only contain, but harness and utilize power that could outstrip Ultra Instinct -Sign-. Unlike Saganbo, whose body couldn't handle even a fraction of Moro's power before falling apart, Moro could naturally and easily contain all that stolen power on his own with no need to train his body to contain it. Stolen power or no, without a single day of training under his belt, Moro's physical body was able to withstand fighting against and even exceed a form of Ultra Instinct. It took literal Angel power to finally reach Moro's limit. That's insane! Frieza back on Namek, whose untrained body could hold its own against the might of a Super Saiyan, was able to train for merely a few months and he was able to surpass the power of the Gods. With an untrained body that could stand up to the power of Ultra Instinct, what kind of heights could he achieve if he trained for his power like Frieza did?

To be clear, Goku admonishes Moro for how he went about acquiring his power - Goku directly says as much in the latest chapter while talking with Moro. What Goku sees is that Moro has the potential to be something incredible if he were to actually put in the work and acquired that insane amount of power on his own without stealing it from others. Moro always had that potential in him to reach the heights he current sits at, but rather than work for it, he instead opted to steal his way to the top. This disappoints Goku greatly. but he can't help but see what an amazing opponent Moro could be if things were somehow different. It's not hard to see why Goku would be interested in keeping someone with such unimaginable potential around. It's just that Moro had no intention of ever doing things the right way and that's why Goku resigned himself to killing Moro. The only thing that made him hesitate was seeing all that potential go to waste.

[Xeogran]

I think that’s a bit of a reach. That’s only one technique Goku uses & usually as a last resort. His entire arsenal isn’t about stealing energy from others like Moro’s is.

Yeah, but that is Goku's choice to make. He could use it at the beginning of a fight if he wanted to. Moro's entire arsenal also isn't about stealing energy, but he just starts with it. He is a villain after all.

[Kinokima]

I think that’s a bit of a reach. That’s only one technique Goku uses & usually as a last resort. His entire arsenal isn’t about stealing energy from others like Moro’s is.

Yeah, but that is Goku's choice to make. He could use it at the beginning of a fight if he wanted to. Moro's entire arsenal also isn't about stealing energy, but he just starts with it. He is a villain after all.

Except his entire arsenal IS about stealing energy and taking from others. That’s pretty much all he has done the entire arc.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

I think that’s a bit of a reach. That’s only one technique Goku uses & usually as a last resort. His entire arsenal isn’t about stealing energy from others like Moro’s is.

Yeah, but that is Goku's choice to make. He could use it at the beginning of a fight if he wanted to. Moro's entire arsenal also isn't about stealing energy, but he just starts with it. He is a villain after all.

Except his entire arsenal IS about stealing energy and taking from others. That’s pretty much all he has done the entire arc.

The only thing Moro didn't steal was his original skill set(as far as we know). Moro isn't a warrior, he's a parasitic plague that will destroy life in Universe 7 until only he remains.

[Kinokima]

I think one of my biggest disconnects about Goku being excited about Moro’s strength is Moro is actually NOT a strong opponent. Goku himself brings it up in this chapter when he lectures Moro for never training

I understand Goku’s character being excited by an evil opponent who is actually a strong warrior but that is not Moro. Moro has never fought with his own strength and has only fought with the strength of others. What is there to get excited about?

Even Goku saying Moro is the strongest opponent he ever fought is objectively false. Moro would be nothing without all the power he stole. I guess it depends on how you look at it but I don’t see why Goku would be impressed by Moro’s power in the way he was Freeza or Vegeta for example. The argument seems to be that if Moro trained he would be much stronger, maybe so but you could say that about any Opponent.

I like the theme of earning your power vs stolen power this arc has going for it. But using this arc & this villain to show that Goku sometimes spares opponents doesn’t really work for me.

Yeah, that's the disconnect. Moro not only doesn't rely on his own power, but to get the power he has requires killing people by the millions and ... let's be honest billions. Goku's actions just do not make sense in this chapter no matter how you look at it. Moro is not rival material.

I reinforce the sentiment. Remove the "magic" from Moro and there's nothing worthwhile for Goku to consider maintaining him for his own satisfaction.

Goku's little conversation with Moro about the latter being the toughest/strongest he's ever met actually illustrates several things about Moro's potential and why Goku would be interested in him as an opponent.

For one, Goku isn't thrilled about Moro's stolen power as such, he's marveling at Moro's fighting potential were he to actually train his body and gain power the right way. Think about it: Moro's body was so naturally powerful that it could not only contain, but harness and utilize power that could outstrip Ultra Instinct -Sign-. Unlike Saganbo, whose body couldn't handle even a fraction of Moro's power before falling apart, Moro could naturally and easily contain all that stolen power on his own with no need to train his body to contain it. Stolen power or no, without a single day of training under his belt, Moro's physical body was able to withstand fighting against and even exceed a form of Ultra Instinct. It took literal Angel power to finally reach Moro's limit. That's insane! Frieza back on Namek, whose untrained body could hold its own against the might of a Super Saiyan, was able to train for merely a few months and he was able to surpass the power of the Gods. With an untrained body that could stand up to the power of Ultra Instinct, what kind of heights could he achieve if he trained for his power like Frieza did?

To be clear, Goku admonishes Moro for how he went about acquiring his power - Goku directly says as much in the latest chapter while talking with Moro. What Goku sees is that Moro has the potential to be something incredible if he were to actually put in the work and acquired that insane amount of power on his own without stealing it from others. Moro always had that potential in him to reach the heights he current sits at, but rather than work for it, he instead opted to steal his way to the top. This disappoints Goku greatly. but he can't help but see what an amazing opponent Moro could be if things were somehow different. It's not hard to see why Goku would be interested in keeping someone with such unimaginable potential around. It's just that Moro had no intention of ever doing things the right way and that's why Goku resigned himself to killing Moro. The only thing that made him hesitate was seeing all that potential go to waste.

See I am not buying it. He couldn’t withstand UI because he is not an amazing opponent. And without his magic he would have been easily beaten

I understand what Goku said to him about training and that he isn’t admiring Moro for stealing power. But the arc is also contradictory to have Goku admire Moro as a strong opponent when he’s not shown to be in anyway.

The whole premise is that Moro has great potential but that’s just what we are told not shown. Characters like Jiren & Broly should have even greater potential for growth than Moro.


There is literally nothing that I see that Goku should be impressed with Moro by. The story is telling me that Goku sees potential but my point is after all we’ve seen of Moro that premise doesn’t work for me.

I’m fine with Goku lecturing Moro about training. I am not fine with Goku being like you are the strongest opponent I ever fought. That sounds like a joke to me.

[Mister_Popo]

I think one of my biggest disconnects about Goku being excited about Moro’s strength is Moro is actually NOT a strong opponent. Goku himself brings it up in this chapter when he lectures Moro for never training

I understand Goku’s character being excited by an evil opponent who is actually a strong warrior but that is not Moro. Moro has never fought with his own strength and has only fought with the strength of others. What is there to get excited about?

Even Goku saying Moro is the strongest opponent he ever fought is objectively false. Moro would be nothing without all the power he stole. I guess it depends on how you look at it but I don’t see why Goku would be impressed by Moro’s power in the way he was Freeza or Vegeta for example. The argument seems to be that if Moro trained he would be much stronger, maybe so but you could say that about any Opponent.

I like the theme of earning your power vs stolen power this arc has going for it. But using this arc & this villain to show that Goku sometimes spares opponents doesn’t really work for me.

What you call that 'disconnect' is actually why it's well written.
It's an ironic situation, with thorough understanding of Gokus character.

It appears to be, when taken literal Moro is 'Gokus strongest challenge' and 'Goku wants to redeem Moro and talk him into prison'.

But there is actually more going on 'behind the scenes' here: Moro is no longer able to put up a challenge for Goku. First and foremost he wants to fight him when he's at his strongest, because he knows of the damage he received during his fight with Merus. That's Gokus honour as a martial artist.

But moreover and that's where the irony kicks in: he could potentially become Gokus strongest challenge, if he would train. If he combines training with magic, he may be able to fight on pair with MUI Goku.
If Moro is not dead he could return one day to put up a more descent challenge. That idea excites Goku.
Otherwise, why wouldn't he simply nuke him right away, if he poses that kind of a threat?
From that perspective, it's how Goku is: he is fair and does not want to kill his opponents if not needed (like how a lot of classic superheroes are), but actually his 'ego' brings the earth and the entire universe in danger.
Unintended ... But it gives Moro a chance to come up with another plan or trick, which was the case.

I can understand the criticism why the overarching storyline of the Moro arc is rather generic and has some (maybe too many) boring chapters. Zamasus arc was in that aspect a better story with a more refined and original plotstructure.
But the characterization, unexpected turns of events are dialogues are actually pretty descent in this chapter.

[Magnificent Ponta]

But the arc is also contradictory to have Goku admire Moro as a strong opponent when he’s not shown to be in anyway.

Just as a point of order - even imprisoned for 10 million years, starving to death and with his magic power inhibited, Moro was still quite easily stronger than SSjG Vegeta. I'd call that pretty strong.

With respect to him stealing the power he needs - yes, that's true, but that's why he's a villain, and it's why Goku gets the opportunity to judge him for it when he says that he'd probably be stronger still if he had trained instead. But the fact that his power is his power, and that it was much stronger than everyone else was at its height, is pretty much undeniable.

[TheSaiyanGod]

I mean if it did fall in the lava the story would be over and we wouldn't be having this convo.
If it's on a tiny island surrounded by a literal moat of lava that'd be silly but more of the earth is still not lava then is so it's no implausible to me.

It's not right by his feet conveniently, he had to suck it in from far away with his TK, so it feels somewhat 'earned'.

If spirit fission or something else clever ends the threat I'm fine with it. As long as they don't get bailed out by yet another Whis rewind or everyone dies and Namekian/Super DB's restore everything then I'm fine with whatever else.

Its not really that far away, maybe only 20 feet at the most. Its egregious that Goku let him pull it in when it was so close. Guess that Ultra Instinct failed in stopping the villain's plan. There also should be the issue of the air around lava already being burning hot but fate apparently has other plans, enough so that even a discarded limb can withstand the superheated area just fine.
That's Toyo's writing for you.

Goku didn't know that Moro's fallen hand had a copy of Merus' powers, why would he try to do something when Moro wasn't even able to touch Goku?

But doesn't Moro still have Vegeta's Spirit Split thingy? that on top of UI and being a planet would make splitting Vegito/Gogeta a walk on the park

The abilities copied by Moro after he merged with 73 were sealed by Merus. Apparently the only power left was what he copied from Merus before

It's all still completely uninteresting, repetitive and rote. One thing that was particularly so was Goku saying Moro is the strongest guy he's ever fought. Jiren beat Ultra Instinct in the manga. But even ignoring that plot detail, why do we need Moro to be the strongest foe ever? The arc doesn't need that and it adds nothing to the story of worth. It's just there because "that's what Dragonball does, I guess".

Please end this already.

Jiren just outlasted Goku, who not only did not have complete control over the Ultra Instinct (body untrained to support this power), but his body was taking a toll on him for it. But Jiren was not physically as strong as Goku in that form. Angel Moro is literally said to be as strong as current UI Goku (much stronger than in ToP, able to handle the UI much better), so it is natural that he is the strongest enemy faced by Goku

[Kinokima]

But the arc is also contradictory to have Goku admire Moro as a strong opponent when he’s not shown to be in anyway.

Just as a point of order - even imprisoned for 10 million years, starving to death and with his magic power inhibited, Moro was still quite easily stronger than SSjG Vegeta. I'd call that pretty strong.

With respect to him stealing the power he needs - yes, that's true, but that's why he's a villain, and it's why Goku gets the opportunity to judge him for it when he says that he'd probably be stronger still if he had trained instead. But the fact that his power is his power, and that it was much stronger than everyone else was at its height, is pretty much undeniable.

Broly is shown to also be able to fight SSG and he is never formally trained. He also gets stronger on his own as he fights. Moro was stealing the planets’ and Vegeta’s energy as they fought

You are saying Moro’s power was stronger than everyone at its height. Moro was always stronger than everyone from stealing energy.


I don’t have a problem with Moro stealing energy as a villain. My issue is with Moro impressing Goku when he really shouldn’t.

[Rebel Instinct]

Broly is shown to also be able to fight SSG and he is never formally trained. He also gets stronger on his own as he fights. Moro was stealing the planets’ and Vegeta’s energy as they fought

You are saying Moro’s power was stronger than everyone at its height. Moro was always stronger than everyone from stealing energy.


I don’t have a problem with Moro stealing energy as a villain. My issue is with Moro impressing Goku when he really shouldn’t.

Moro's body can easily handle power on the caliber of Ultra Instinct -Sign- without needing to so much as lift a finger to train for it. This is Moro's natural limit without having to train, grow, or hone himself at any point. He didn't need training, transformations, mutant genes, cyborg modifications or any extraneous circumstances to make his body capable of containing that power (even consuming 7-3 was just Moro re-acquiring the power he could already handle). This is his Namek Frieza-esque default limit - and it's nearly Angel tier. Energy is energy, it doesn't matter where it came from. What matters is the vessel that contains that energy. The impressive part is the fact that Moro's body can handle it naturally like it's no big deal.

With a bare minimum default body that can contain power comparable to Ultra Instinct with no training, Moro could go train by himself on a random planet for a few months like Frieza did and likely become stronger than any other being in the universe without needing to steal energy from anyone. This is the potential that impresses Goku - not the stolen energy.

It doesn't matter if you "buy it" that Moro's potential is so high. It's a fact that it is. It took Goku decades of grueling training to reach the level he's at right now. The same goes for someone like Jiren, who spent his entire life training to get where he is. Moro's body can sustain that same level of power (or higher) by default. Zero training and it took consuming an Angel's power for him reach his natural born limit. Training could dramatically expand that already insane natural limit. If you don't see why that impresses Goku, I don't know what to tell you. I can't explain it any better than that.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Moro was stealing the planets’ and Vegeta’s energy as they fought

True enough, but by the time Vegeta went SSjB, Moro hadn't taken any of that energy for himself; he'd just used it to fuel his attacks. So Moro was always that strong, even at his extreme weakest, and it's kind of debatable as to whether Vegeta had lost all that much power by then - he could, after all, still activate and use SSjB without issue at this point.

I don’t have a problem with Moro stealing energy as a villain. My issue is with Moro impressing Goku when he really shouldn’t.

I'm not sure I see why Goku shouldn't be impressed with that power, if it's the greatest he's seen so far. Sure, the means by which it is acquired is reprehensible, and apparently second-best to the methods Goku advocates, but is there really any arguing with the power itself?

[Kinokima]

Broly is shown to also be able to fight SSG and he is never formally trained. He also gets stronger on his own as he fights. Moro was stealing the planets’ and Vegeta’s energy as they fought

You are saying Moro’s power was stronger than everyone at its height. Moro was always stronger than everyone from stealing energy.


I don’t have a problem with Moro stealing energy as a villain. My issue is with Moro impressing Goku when he really shouldn’t.

Moro's body can easily handle power on the caliber of Ultra Instinct -Sign- without needing to so much as lift a finger to train for it. This is Moro's natural limit without having to train, grow, or hone himself at any point. He didn't need training, transformations, mutant genes, cyborg modifications or any extraneous circumstances to make his body capable of containing that power (even consuming 7-3 was just Moro re-acquiring the power he could already handle). This is his Namek Frieza-esque default limit - and it's nearly Angel tier. Energy is energy, it doesn't matter where it came from. What matters is the vessel that contains that energy. The impressive part is the fact that Moro's body can handle it naturally like it's no big deal.

With a bare minimum default body that can contain power comparable to Ultra Instinct with no training, Moro could go train by himself on a random planet for a few months like Frieza did and likely become stronger than any other being in the universe without needing to steal energy from anyone. This is the potential that impresses Goku - not the stolen energy.

It doesn't matter if you "buy it" that Moro's potential is so high. It's a fact that it is. It took Goku decades of grueling training to reach the level he's at right now. The same goes for someone like Jiren, who spent his entire life training to get where he is. Moro's body can sustain that same level of power (or higher) by default. Zero training and it took consuming an Angel's power for him reach his natural born limit. Training could dramatically expand that already insane natural limit. If you don't see why that impresses Goku, I don't know what to tell you. I can't explain it any better than that.

Moro is NOT able to easily contain UI that is why he had to find a new body Earth to contain it. That was the whole point of the ending of the chapter

When Vegeta separated all the energy he stole from the planets and lives he went back to his weak self until he absorbed 7:3. Obviously it was the absorption of 7:3 that made him that strong not any natural ability.

Every time we see Moro get stronger it’s because he has taken power from something else.


Also in the very early chapter when Goku is searching for Moro’s Ki he literally says Moro’s Chi is not that strong but it’s made up of countless lives screaming

Merus then says that Moro’s very energy is a Mass of Slaughtered Souls. This concept was introduced before Vegeta and Goku even started fighting Moro so his so called “ base power” is still made up of the souls of others.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Moro is NOT able to easy contain UI that is why he had to find a new body Earth to contain it. That was the whole point of the ending of the chapter

Rebel Instinct did not say that Moro could contain Ultra Instinct - he said Moro contained and wielded a power high enough to beat Omen easily, without training for it or doing much of anything by way of preparation. If he can be that powerful with no effort, imagine how powerful he could be if he put the work in.