"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:34 pm

DevilKing99 wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:39 pmThis arc is going is to take two years to be finished like the Moro arc. And I will be surprised if anybody cares about any of the villains of this arc besides Granola, hell just look at the Saganbo gang, first hype then nobody cared about them, Saganboo is stronger than Gohan and 17 working together and nobody cares about him at all. I am almost 90% positive the Heata gang is going to end up the same.
Elec has more characterization in like three pages than Saganbo does in three volumes, though.

Was anyone ever excited to see more of the Saganbo gang? I genuinely don't remember any reactions to that effect. Seems like most people just accepted their role as goons for the arc.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Mon Jan 25, 2021 9:02 pm

Yuji wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:41 pm Either way, I feel like Toyoatou's writing has always been iffy on Piccolo. His line in the U6 arc referring to himself as "Piccolo Daimao" seems distinctly at odds with post-God fusion Piccolo's personality. I'm aware that the intent is to give a powerful one liner and curb the previously placed doubts about Piccolo's performance in the match against Frost, but he could have said something much more adequate instead: calling attention to his identity as the nameless Namekian, son of Katats; or his status as a being containing both God and demon. While I wouldn't call it character regression necessarily, it is a bit odd he would just forget he's part God too.
People always point to this line to suggest Toyotaro doesn't understand how to write certain characters, but I don't agree. The line works for the following reasons:

-Piccolo get no respect this arc, and there are multiple punch-lines at his expense. It's a tong-in-cheek way of him reflecting on how far he's fallen.
-Frost doesn't get what the big deal is about fighting a Namekian. You addressed this, but being the reincarnation of Piccolo Daimao is more relevant to the Piccolo we know than the alternatives.
-There are kids experiencing DB for the first time through the Super manga. They need to know why Piccolo is special, too. This might entice someone to go back and read the original work, or at least use Google to gather a better appreciation.
-Piccolo doesn't evoke Daimao in the same way he did before combining with God. He's not renouncing his allies or his reformed nature. He's acknowledging the fact without any added baggage, which is totally reasonable.
-At worst, it's unintrusive fanservice. This line gets more attention than it should.
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 6:15 pm There's been some rather confusing things thrown around in this thread lately, namely this resurgence in hope that Super Saiyan 4 will make a return... I have no idea where this came from or why everybody's so into it all of a sudden.
Mostly wishful thinking. People have decided that this is a remake of the Baby arc, and people really want that form to be "canon". Super Saiyan 4 is an "alternate path" to power in that it follows Oozaru instead of Super Saiyan, but we've already had the Super version of that in DBS Broly.
DiscountDabi wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 5:41 pm It really is a shame that this isn't an official figure because I would buy this in a heartbeat.
Really cool!

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Jan 25, 2021 9:55 pm

Elec not being the strongest but having the brightest personality already adds a layer of depth I wasn't expecting. Now, there's always the chance that Elec will reveal himself to be stronger than he seems or the story can shift to his younger sibling taking back their agency.

Now, maybe just, like...develop dynamics between the Heatas and the side characters so that the inevitable fights don't put us to sleep? Pretty please?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by goku the krump dancer » Tue Jan 26, 2021 1:52 am

Yeah Moro's "crew" came off as nothing more than grunts for the other heroes to eventually beat up from jump street. These guys feel like a bigger deal than them already.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by MCDaveG » Tue Jan 26, 2021 4:35 am

Draconic wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 4:09 pm It's a wonder how the guy who designed Moro, Merus, the Galactic Prisoners, 7-3 Moro and the Heeters also designed Granola.

He showed potential with the Gods of Destruction, even though only one is truly great (Liquir), but Granola is on another level.
I liked the designs of Gods of Destruction and Kaioshin, but to me, Granola is kinda in uncanny territory as he looks more like a Dragon Quest character design from design sheet... But Merus, whomever designed him, looked kinda cool and his bowl cut was well made in comparison to Gohan, who really looks lame.

This is nice video on Toriyama's designs, which reminds us that sometimes, immersed in Dragon Ball, we forget that this guy is really active still.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWLmazJE4aE

I do really admire him since knowing how the weekly schedule was and combined with it, he did bunch of other stuff as well.
Doing Dragon Ball weekly + Dragon Quest designs, plus sheets to anime, plus one shots sometimes... that's a load of stuff.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DestructoDisc » Tue Jan 26, 2021 10:11 am

Moro's gang felt like most of the ToP characters. Irrelevant fodders with no personality only there to get beaten up by the heroes. These new guys already have way more personality than they do, except the fat guy, he sucks for now.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Tue Jan 26, 2021 12:01 pm

DestructoDisc wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 10:11 am Moro's gang felt like most of the ToP characters. Irrelevant fodders with no personality only there to get beaten up by the heroes. These new guys already have way more personality than they do, except the fat guy, he sucks for now.
The muscle trope for the group. Hope he is not an idiot, although his design seems to imply he has a small brain (if we compare with past brutes).
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Tue Jan 26, 2021 1:22 pm

Grand Marshal 1 wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 12:01 pm
DestructoDisc wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 10:11 am Moro's gang felt like most of the ToP characters. Irrelevant fodders with no personality only there to get beaten up by the heroes. These new guys already have way more personality than they do, except the fat guy, he sucks for now.
The muscle trope for the group. Hope he is not an idiot, although his design seems to imply he has a small brain (if we compare with past brutes).
I got the impression that there was a fairly typical Toriyama subversion going on there, given that Elec hands OG73-I to him for analytical work; it's not much to hang that on, admittedly, but it's the sense it gave me.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by FortuneSSJ » Tue Jan 26, 2021 1:23 pm


Disappointed that Granolah's right eye seems to be red. because eyes with special powers being red has been overused.

Off the top of my head some examples are Kurta Clan from Hunter x Hunter, Uchiha Clan from Naruto, Mukuro from Katekyo Hitman Reborn. Lelouch from Code Geass, Noctis from Final Fantasy 15...

Golden would've be the best choice for me.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Tue Jan 26, 2021 1:33 pm

FortuneSSJ wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 1:23 pm

Disappointed that Granolah's right eye seems to be red. because eyes with special powers being red has been overused.

Off the top of my head some examples are Kurta Clan from Hunter x Hunter, Uchiha Clan from Naruto, Mukuro from Katekyo Hitman Reborn. Lelouch from Code Geass, Noctis from Final Fantasy 15...

Golden would've be the best choice for me.
I saw a French news article declare it to be "bronze", which might be an accurate indication of the intention here; I could get behind that (metallic colours, and all that), but we'd need a clearer example.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Tue Jan 26, 2021 1:44 pm

While I anticipate Freeza to be involved in this arc, I very much doubt he will die. This doesn't seem like the end point for his story, but rather the start, or perhaps more appropriately, the continuation of his last. Freeza's return as the emperor of evil serves as a soft reboot for the universal scale and mythos which has always been very Freeza-centric but had been stuck, in terms of battle powers, in the Namek arc. As everything revolved around Freeza, it would break suspension of disbelief if random aliens showed up stronger than him outside of notable in-universe exceptions such as Broly (this is a problem many fans had with GT for example) or ancient evils (Buu, Moro). Whenever aliens are introduced, their power is always presented on a Namek arc scale: Tagoma and Shisami compared to Zarbon and Dodoria, the galactic Patrol compared to the Freeza force and the Saiyans, the Saganbo gang being fodder to the likes of kid Trunks without the aid of Moro's magic, so on.

While expanding the lore by focusing on how different factions struggled for power following Freeza's demise (bounty hunters, bandit gangs, the old Freeza force, militias and the Galactic Patrol), the stage has been set now with Freeza's revival for the return of the old Namek arc status quo with Freeza and his force at the top with all other factions below; only this time, the world has been expanded much more and we're privy to the universe's inhabitants outside of Freeza's empire. This does exactly the same thing the Namek arc did: establish Freeza as the benchmark and the standard for which aliens in the universe can strive for. Only now, since Freeza's strength functions on a Godly scale, it is not unbelievable to think that aliens can now, through training or some other method, pose a threat to Goku & others, who had left the old Namek arc scale in the dust long ago; time has moved on not only for them, but for the rest of the universe as well (so they, too, should be able to get stronger), and it's because Freeza is so much stronger now dwarfing any possible alien who may have surpassed him from long ago, that we no longer need to use the old Namek scale. In essence, Freeza's return provides a new universal battle tier system thanks to his position in the lore.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Jan 26, 2021 4:26 pm

What is certain is that Frieza will be involved with Broly somehow, because at the end of the Broly movie he said he'd take control of him and unleash him on the Saiyans.

Frieza admitted he alone stands no chance against the Saiyans (this pretty much means that his potential is fully capped), hence why he's going after Broly to turn him into his servant.

The set-up has been established. What's frightening to think about is that, if Frieza manages to fully take control of Broly (maybe through some weird magical substance or virus), then he might not stop at the Saiyans. Broly is such an hax character, in like one morning he went from fodder to SSB Fusion level. What if Frieza forced Broly to train even harder then unleashed him on the Gods? Remember how he wanted to dethrone the Gods? He's a fool, but he might be thinking about it. And he could involve Broly in his stupid crazy schemes.

He might even try to have Broly's two friends killed in front of him, just as he did with Paragus. That will certainly make him stronger through rage. I think people are forgetting that Frieza is a psychopath monster and 100% intends to return to his evil ways. He might have been presented in a heroic light in the ToP arc, but that was the past. Abusing Broly and turning him into a living weapon sounds like something Frieza would love to do.

Either way, Frieza is playing with fire and will regret it dearly.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Tue Jan 26, 2021 4:53 pm

It’s even possible that Freeza has already hired Broly, who knows.

But Freeza’s potential is not capped. He just realized that him alone against Goku and Vegeta, who can also fuse, is going to be hard. Maybe he has found Broly and has trained with him?
We still have no idea how strong he’s gotten. But in both anime and manga he actually managed to catch up to mastered SSB Goku (who also trained 3 years in the room of time) when he was dead, so it’s clear that he’s still got room to grow.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Alruneia » Tue Jan 26, 2021 5:16 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 1:33 pm
Image
I saw a French news article declare it to be "bronze", which might be an accurate indication of the intention here; I could get behind that (metallic colours, and all that), but we'd need a clearer example.
It does actually remind me of copper a bit. His right eye has a colour similar to pure copper, and his hair has a colour similar to weathered copper (which you can see on for example the Statue of Liberty). Could be a coincidence, could be a source of inspiration. I don't know.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by jd55513 » Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:11 pm

I think frieza has gone through interesting character development since he was first introduced. When we first saw him. He was self absorbed, and thought he was above all else. After his defeat at the hands of Super Saiyan Son Goku. Something changed. Although he was vile and filled with selfish thoughts of singular revenge. He decided to seriously train, a first for him! Then when he was defeated by Trunks and killed. He began to mediate and do image training while in Hell. After losing again to Son Goku. He continued his training, and during the events of the Tournament of Power, he decided to help Goku at times, replaying his debt. Then during the events of Broly. He no longer wished for Immortality, he is interested in training and understands that it is a pointless and selfish wish.
Son Goku has changed him for the better. He is now more, a martial artist and interested in his own development and spiritual enlightenment.
I don't think he should die, but it would be interested to see him handed defeat by another race of beings, other than Saiyans.
I'm curious to see what kind of training he has done, and what his plans may be after meeting Granola.
To put it simply, Son Goku has a quirk for bringing out the best in people regardless of their nature, good or bad. Goku is like a Bodhisattva that use universal compassion to help others reach enlightenment (in the sense of Eastern Philosophy and Martial Arts).
Because again, Dragon Ball is story about Son Goku and his spiritual enlightenment.
Frieza is still a dark and scheming guy, however you also might want to consider the notions of evil, in Buddhism.
It's a phenomenalogical effect caused by self aware entities. It manifest from dukkha or suffering
In regards to Metaphysics and Ethics, it is night and day on concepts of Gods and Evil.
There is no ultimate good or evil in Eastern philosophy. There is only relative good and evil. "All undertakings are beset with imperfections, as fire with smoke" (Gita 18.48).
In Daoism, you have the Cosmic Yin and Yang. Which is Dialectical monism, also known as dualistic monism. This is not to be confused with just monism(the idea that reality is built on things of a material substance, like atomism). This is a special case of ontology (study of being) where the forces represent themselves, as perceptions in the realm of the minds, not substantive nature. It's also merely an illusion like Buddhism.

In Daoism, they practice "wu wei" and forms of partaking in Dao(or Tao) there is human dao, natural dao and great dao.

Evil in the East is not a "substance" in a monist point of view. It does not have matter associated with it.
However, I remember in Shintoism, there is a struggle and balancing of kegare ("pollution" or "impurity"), while ensuring harae ("purity").

In the West, from a theological point of view, St. Augustine viewed evil as a "privation of good" he didn't believe Evil was created since that would deconstruct the presumption that a God was perfect in the sense of omnipotent, all good, and omniscient.

Also in the West, people tend to believe in a concept in Theodicy called the "vale of soul making". This would be the explaination for the problem of evil. That is, the existence of evil as a phenomenological effect, that motivates and breeds self cultivation of behavior and harmonious virtues in mortals.

The reason I added the stuff about evil and Godhood, is that people always struggle with coming to terms of why don't Whis or the Kaioshins or the other Gods, actually intervene. This is a struggle that parallels actual history in theology and is across cultures.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by goku the krump dancer » Tue Jan 26, 2021 10:33 pm

I don't think Freeza has any idea where Planet Vampa is. Even if he could get to him, he'd have no way of convincing Broly to join him since Broly has been made aware that Freeza can't be trusted to some degree and even if he didn't catch on himself, he has Cheelai and Lemon giving him the 411.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Wed Jan 27, 2021 3:26 am

goku the krump dancer wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 10:33 pm I don't think Freeza has any idea where Planet Vampa is. Even if he could get to him, he'd have no way of convincing Broly to join him since Broly has been made aware that Freeza can't be trusted to some degree and even if he didn't catch on himself, he has Cheelai and Lemon giving him the 411.
If Freeza went to Vampa in “peace” with his army besides him then he would have great bargaining power over Broly and his friends. Do not forget that he’s also a very good manipulator and has a lot of resources. He might come up with a good tactic to convince Broly to join him and it wouldn’t feel unnatural.

Though I actually believe it would make more sense if the Broly trio keeps on being a neutral/separate force, but happen to also join the battle with Granola somehow.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Jan 27, 2021 5:17 am

I mean, if Paragus as a lonely Saiyan could create a device to bind Broly to his will, I'm sure Frieza could get one thanks to the countless scientists and engineers who work for him.

When Frieza said he'd find Broly and use him against the Saiyans... obviously he didn't mean that he's going to "recruit" him. Does Frieza look like the guy who'd ask Broly "Hey Broly, would you like to join my army?"

No he wouldn't, because he's evil. He'd just show up on Vampa (if he can find it, but he has many forces that can scour the universe for its location) and then use whatever evil artifact he's found to take control of Broly.

Without Broly's consent. That's kind of the point of evil artifacts like Paragus'.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Wed Jan 27, 2021 8:43 pm

You’re all overestimating how effective the shock collar is. Unless that collar is as powerful as Gogeta is, the reason it kept Broly in check was because he deeply cared for his father and was obedient to him.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Wed Jan 27, 2021 8:48 pm

Minor note, but I guess this issue confirms that Goku in the manga continuity definitely doesn't have a crippling fear of needles, seeing as he has no problem holding the Oracle Fish down to give him an injection. Toyotaro does sometimes crib from anime-only ideas but I guess he's over that now.

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