"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Grimlock]

Likewise, the Frieza thing with Gotenks effectively means that whole scene in the Res F arc canonically didn't take place. Gregory's whole existence in Super's anime (along with his complaining about his death in the cell saga) also contradicts his complete lack of existence and placement during those events in the manga.

Plus yknow, all the other stuff I pointed out in the post up there and the stuff about Toyotaro sticking closer to the original draft (by what's clearly miles)

And then there is the lack of a mention to Tarble, something both Toei and Toyotaro did.

I don't think all this is merely a matter of just "that whole scene in the Res F arc", it is precisely stuff like these that creates multiple continuities. It isn't like "hey, this is what we should consider up until the moment Freeza sees Gotenks, then we stop taking that moment into consideration, then we are back to consider what comes after". This is actually more confusing, and less likely to be the case.

[batistabus]

We're really doing this again, huh? I think there should be a "Dragon Ball Super: Canon Discussion" thread because I'm sick of seeing this here, but it's something people apparently are very interested in discussing.

That display from the manga, the one that refers to the DBS manga as the "official sequel" to the DB manga, obviously isn't meant to be a religious text saying what is canon in Dragon Ball. The only thing important to take away from it is the "official sequel" tidbit. Dragon Ball is first and foremost a manga series by Akira Toriyama. Nobody would say that the DB/DBZ/DBKai anime is more canon than the manga (or even equally canon), they are adaptations of the manga. That is not the case with DBS, but we'll get into that.

Okay, so if we're saying that canon=whatever is closer to Toriyama, let's go there. Following that logic, the most canon thing of Super would be Toriyama's outlines and the Resurrection F script. That's great, but his outlines are not official Shueisha products. The only one that has been released is the Resurrection F script, which the RoF film doesn't fully follow, and even Toriyama describes as a "memo". Despite these being the most "purely Toriyama", they still have influence from others, such as the concepts of BoG, the idea to reintroduce Trunks for the Future Trunks arc, etc.

Next, we have adaptations of Toriyama's outlines that he was directly involved in overseeing. The manga (UP TO the Galactic Patrol Prisoner arc), the films, and even the "Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!" special (and Ooishi's manga) belong in this category. As to which is """more canon""", you could make an argument either way. I might be inclinded to put the manga above the films because Toriyama actually contributed drawings and script changes to the manga, because Toyotaro is Toriyama's "chosen successor" (unlike writers at Toei), and because Dragon Ball is a MANGA SERIES first and foremost (OFFICIAL SEQUEL). The actual events of RoF and DBS Broly aren't told in the manga, but they are established in the manga as having had taken place and are heavily referenced.

On the other hand, the films seem to minimally deviate from what we understand to likely be Toriyama's outline, and Iyoku (head of the Dragon Ball Room) directly corresponded with Toriyama during this process. Fortunately, the manga doesn't tend to cover the same material that the films do, so for the most part, there's room for both of them.

After that, we have the Galactic Patrol Prisoner arc. Toriyama is heavily involved, but Toyotaro is also heavily involved. Again, if canon=Toriyama, Toyotaro's influence therefore diminishes it. However, Toriyama's direct oversight puts it above what follows.

Finally, there is the anime. The anime loosely follows Toriyama's script with almost no input from Toriyama. The two things we've ever heard about Toriyama concerning the anime up until this point is that he wasn't happy with its quality, and that he made them transfer Jiren's personality to Toppo. The DBS anime has not affected any of the products listed above. Despite its popularity, Dragon Ball anime has always been removed from Toriyama's input (he is not an animator, nor director, nor producer), and that is still the case.

...

So, looking above, if you want to value Toriyama, that's what makes the most sense to me. If I'm being honest, it's stupid and overly complicated to put too much stock into something like that, but there is no consistent DBS product in a single medium. If you're going to make that argument, it's going to be messy. Believe what you want, but I think it's completely silly to put the anime over anything when it comes to what is most legitimate, or what is most close to Toriyama's mind. And if your view of the anime as "most canon" hinges on the fact that it is most complete, but it doesn't end up adapting DBS Broly (which is looking like it'll be the case), then what?

[HeroR]

Anyway, it's not like Toyotaro is somehow immune to stuff only seen in Toei. Let us not forget that in his continuity, kid Vegeta had bangs, just like in the anime. Despite kid Vegeta not sporting them in Movie 14 and Dragon Ball Minus that were released just a couple of years prior to the chapter. It's very explicit, if you ask me.

I'm not saying that exactly, but Vegeta's hairstyle changing at one is certainly a less egregious example compared to anything I pointed out.

Likewise, the Frieza thing with Gotenks effectively means that whole scene in the Res F arc canonically didn't take place. Gregory's whole existence in Super's anime (along with his complaining about his death in the cell saga) also contradicts his complete lack of existence and placement during those events in the manga.

Plus yknow, all the other stuff I pointed out in the post up there and the stuff about Toyotaro sticking closer to the original draft (by what's clearly miles)

Lol it's pretty laughable people still considering the manga canon it skipped the Broly story skipped the ResF story and not to mention it's serialised in the minor magazine and monthly and the manga isn't even considered by the marketing department as the main product, that is much more damning than some mural.

One Piece Strong World is a movie canon to the manga, yet it's not covered in One Piece's manga. I don't get why people use that of all things as an argument.

Actually, it isn't. Shiki and his backstory are canon, but the events of the actually movie are not. Which is how you have Zoro being in top shape in the movie, but barely able to move properly in the series proper in that timeframe.

[Rakurai]

It uses only scenes and panels directly from the manga, and even skips the Resurrection F arc.

Woah, woah. Hold up. So I guess now we're literally decreeing a movie that Toriyama wrote non canon, because it was left out of the all mighty, can do no wrong mural???

Or, maybe, you all are taking the mural a bit too literally.

No, we are decreeing that on the manga timeline, the DBS manga is the official continuity/history of the original manga, or canonical as a lot of fans would like to put it. In the context of the DB manga, DBS manga is the canonical sequel. I didn't say anything about the Toei films.

We are not speculating anything further than that, although by logical reasoning the DBS manga adapts the RoF film into its continuity based on Toyotarou's promotional RoF manga. This is still just fan speculation, however.

The mural was used for both the DB North American tour and the DBS Broly promotion on the Tokyo Skytree. These were very important events for marketing and advertisement of the DB franchise, especially when it came to promoting the Broly film.



So yes, the mural is to be taken seriously since this is something that Shueisha put out for two important promotional events. And it is the most recent thing that we have for any discussion in canon.

[Rakurai]

We're really doing this again, huh? I think there should be a "Dragon Ball Super: Canon Discussion" thread because I'm sick of seeing this here, but it's something people apparently are very interested in discussing.

That display from the manga, the one that refers to the DBS manga as the "official sequel" to the DB manga, obviously isn't meant to be a religious text saying what is canon in Dragon Ball. The only thing important to take away from it is the "official sequel" tidbit. Dragon Ball is first and foremost a manga series by Akira Toriyama. Nobody would say that the DB/DBZ/DBKai anime is more canon than the manga (or even equally canon), they are adaptations of the manga. That is not the case with DBS, but we'll get into that.

Okay, so if we're saying that canon=whatever is closer to Toriyama, let's go there. Following that logic, the most canon thing of Super would be Toriyama's outlines and the Resurrection F script. That's great, but his outlines are not official Shueisha products. The only one that has been released is the Resurrection F script, which the RoF film doesn't fully follow, and even Toriyama describes as a "memo". Despite these being the most "purely Toriyama", they still have influence from others, such as the concepts of BoG, the idea to reintroduce Trunks for the Future Trunks arc, etc.

Next, we have adaptations of Toriyama's outlines that he was directly involved in overseeing. The manga (UP TO the Galactic Patrol Prisoner arc), the films, and even the "Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!" special (and Ooishi's manga) belong in this category. As to which is """more canon""", you could make an argument either way. I might be inclinded to put the manga above the films because Toriyama actually contributed drawings and script changes to the manga, because Toyotaro is Toriyama's "chosen successor" (unlike writers at Toei), and because Dragon Ball is a MANGA SERIES first and foremost (OFFICIAL SEQUEL). The actual events of RoF and DBS Broly aren't told in the manga, but they are established in the manga as having had taken place and are heavily referenced.

On the other hand, the films seem to minimally deviate from what we understand to likely be Toriyama's outline, and Iyoku (head of the Dragon Ball Room) directly corresponded with Toriyama during this process. Fortunately, the manga doesn't tend to cover the same material that the films do, so for the most part, there's room for both of them.

After that, we have the Galactic Patrol Prisoner arc. Toriyama is heavily involved, but Toyotaro is also heavily involved. Again, if canon=Toriyama, Toyotaro's influence therefore diminishes it. However, Toriyama's direct oversight puts it above what follows.

Finally, there is the anime. The anime loosely follows Toriyama's script with almost no input from Toriyama. The two things we've ever heard about Toriyama concerning the anime up until this point is that he wasn't happy with its quality, and that he made them transfer Jiren's personality to Toppo. The DBS anime has not affected any of the products listed above. Despite its popularity, Dragon Ball anime has always been removed from Toriyama's input (he is not an animator, nor director, nor producer), and that is still the case.

...

So, looking above, if you want to value Toriyama, that's what makes the most sense to me. If I'm being honest, it's stupid and overly complicated to put too much stock into something like that, but there is no consistent DBS product in a single medium. If you're going to make that argument, it's going to be messy. Believe what you want, but I think it's completely silly to put the anime over anything when it comes to what is most legitimate, or what is most close to Toriyama's mind. And if your view of the anime as "most canon" hinges on the fact that it is most complete, but it doesn't end up adapting DBS Broly (which is looking like it'll be the case), then what?

Despite my own opinions about the canonicity of the anime and manga, I think this is one of the most reasonable responses written so far.

[mfwlegend3]

The Namekuseijin book

Please stop.

[Alruneia]

We're really doing this again, huh? I think there should be a "Dragon Ball Super: Canon Discussion" thread because I'm sick of seeing this here, but it's something people apparently are very interested in discussing.

At this point it seems like some people are just stirring the pot. Maybe a thread would be nice, but it's also very late for it now, since it's a discussion that's been going for years. And since it's been going for so long, many people have already fully made up their minds, so it's not a matter of having an intellectual discourse with the intent to come to a conclusion on what's canon or not, it's just a verbal sparring session that leads nowhere.

The Namekuseijin book

Please stop.

What's the matter? Not a fan of gratuitous Japanese?

[Grimlock]

Please stop.

Stop what?

[Noitsnothim]

I don't know who posted the theory that the Merus is actually The Grand Priest but I think you're onto something I checked the manga for Whis and Vados and noticed their eyebrows are shaded in black while the grand priest aren't and if you look at Merus's eyebrows his aren't black either but white just like the grand priest

[Xell]

Please stop.

Stop what?

Nan desu ka?

Namekkuseijin are sugoi.. However! My favourite Doragon Borru Zetto character is Torankusu

[Grimlock]

I have no reason to use American terms. Firstly because I'm not an American myself. Secondly, this website is all about the Japanese side of the franchise (well, even if it isn't, I'd still use Japanese terms, influenced by my own dub). I'll keep it to English only English words.

I'm the one who should be asking you all to stop using pathetic terms such as "Kid Boo", "Mystic Gohan", "Adult Gohan" (referring to a freaking 16-year-old teenager) and many more stupidities. But I don't, so please don't ask me to stop using the correct words and terms.

[JulieYBM]

Imagine being some weeb who calls God by 'Kami' and actually calls comics and cartoons by 'manga and anime'.

[mfwlegend3]

Use whatever you like. Just know it makes you look like an absolute try hard who thinks by using "Japanese terms" it somehow makes you a cut above the rest. It's also extremely cringe worthy. Elitists are and can be just as bad as the dub fans they rant about.

[Grimlock]

If anything, it's the Americans who think their dub is the only one what all the rest of the world should be looking at what makes you cut above the rest. "Namekian" is an American term used only in English territories, not in Japanese and even less in my dub. It is indeed cringe worthy to impose your own stuff to everyone else, like you're doing.

You should take a step back and reevaluate your own terms (such as the ones I provided above) and accept other realities, like the English dub not being the only one that exists and that should be the only one used.

[mfwlegend3]

Not once has anyone in this thread mentioned the dub, nor has anyone defended the names they've used. Resorting to a boogeyman isn't a good look. But I digress.

[Grimlock]

If it's not dub, why should I use "Namekian" then?

[Dbzfan94]

If it's not dub, why should I use "Namekian" then?

You use Saiyan, right? So Namekian is the same. It's not an English dub thing.

[Grimlock]

Unfortunately, yes. "Saiyan" is my only exception, I got used to it a very long time ago. And yes, it is an English dub.

[RagnoKaito]

About Moro arc, please, read the FULL interview posted recently

What have you talked about with Toriyama-sensei when the “Galactic Patrol Prisoner Saga” began?

Toyotaro: When I met Toriyama-sensei, I was really surprised by the original idea of the original author. I was convinced that it would be a good story for each other and so I was able to get started. It will be revealed in the future, so I can't tell you more ... But I'm looking forward to seeing the secrets of the newly appearing characters that you can't imagine unless you're Mr. Toriyama.

Naturally, Toyotaro teaming-up with Toriyama for this arc, BUT this arc is still a Toriyama's idea, like the characters. Indeed, what Toyotaro did about Moro and Merus, is just the DESIGN, like most of the Hakaishin in the ToP arc for example. Also the 80% of the character in the ToP arc was made by Toyotaro or Toei, cuz Toriyama only worked on the (few) main characters of the saga.

[Miracles]

About Moro arc, please, read the FULL interview posted recently

What have you talked about with Toriyama-sensei when the “Galactic Patrol Prisoner Saga” began?

Toyotaro: When I met Toriyama-sensei, I was really surprised by the original idea of the original author. I was convinced that it would be a good story for each other and so I was able to get started. It will be revealed in the future, so I can't tell you more ... But I'm looking forward to seeing the secrets of the newly appearing characters that you can't imagine unless you're Mr. Toriyama.

Naturally, Toyotaro teaming-up with Toriyama for this arc, BUT this arc is still a Toriyama's idea, like the characters. Indeed, what Toyotaro did about Moro and Merus, is just the DESIGN, like most of the Hakaishin in the ToP arc for example. Also the 80% of the character in the ToP arc was made by Toyotaro or Toei, cuz Toriyama only worked on the (few) main characters of the saga.

Ah, so this arc is a Toriyama idea. What's with all the fanfic about it being Toyotaro's story?