"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[batistabus]

Nice to see this thread pinned. I've been hoping for that for a while.

There was no teamwork in that arc until like the very end. I'm not even going to humor that idea.

The very moment before the ToP begins, Gohan says "First, let's stick together and cooperate to take them down...teamwork...teamwork...". The very next moment, Goku, Vegeta, Freeza, No. 17, and No. 18 take off. Magetta shows up and splits the remaining earthlings apart. That's when Kuririn and Tenshinhan get eliminated. The fact that teamwork is important, but something Universe 7 will struggle with because of the type of guys they are, is established right from the beginning.

Before the tournament even begins, Beerus tells them they need to work together. Universe 11 is the only team with all 10 members for a significant portion of the tournament specifically because of teamwork (Whis says it as they're taking down Berserk Kale). It is revealed that when Whis trained Goku and Vegeta together, he was tricking them into working on their teamwork. Etc. etc. etc. Perhaps you're only going off of the anime? Even so, the fact that there are 10 members per team fighting at once instead of just one-on-one battles should tell you something.

If Hitler's actions in Inglorious Bastards had saved countless lives and furthered the aims of the heroes then yes the film would have been validated Hitler's ideology. Much like ToP validated Freeza's.

That's an...interesting point of view. I'm not really even sure what you mean. They work with Freeza because there is a larger evil at play. It may acknowledge that Freeza is strong/smart/useful, but it doesn't in any way validate his ideals.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

Before the tournament even begins, Beerus tells them they need to work together. Universe 11 is the only team with all 10 members for a significant portion of the tournament specifically because of teamwork (Whis says it as they're taking down Berserk Kale). It is revealed that when Whis trained Goku and Vegeta together, he was tricking them into working on their teamwork. Etc. etc. etc. Perhaps you're only going off of the anime? Even so, the fact that there are 10 members per team fighting at once instead of just one-on-one battles should tell you something.

There is a difference between the stated morals/themes of a franchise and those actually depicted by the story. For example, according to all the speeches in Naruto the moral of the story is being more than what fate wanted you to be. The actual story of Naruto is about how your birth and family determine everything about you and how little hard work and self determination accomplish.

Likewise, the ToP is nominally about cooperation and teamwork. Power is stated to be insufficient. Then Hit gets clowned because strategy and cooperation don't mean dick in the actual story whatever the characters are saying.

That's an...interesting point of view. I'm not really even sure what you mean. They work with Freeza because there is a larger evil at play. It may acknowledge that Freeza is strong/smart/useful, but it doesn't in any way validate his ideals.

My point is that if a story depicts a philosophy or point of view as being incredibly successful and arguably contributing a great deal towards the heroes succeeding, then the story isn't actually criticizing the pov/philosophy. It's abundantly clear in ToP that Freeza had the right idea. Use people and then throw them aside. The only reason he wasn't the last man standing was because DB always gives the hero spot to Goku. Freeza (and Jiren) are the only ones who come out of it not looking like hypocrites.

Now, I'm not saying that was the writer's intention. The story's inconsistent enough that I;m inclined to think that a lot of its themes happened by accident. A bit like how the Buu Arc established that the next generation is fucking worthless and desperately needs the old one to keep everything from falling apart. But if the character's tell me one thing and the event's of the story tell me another, I'm gonna go with the event's of the story

[The Undying]

Does this tie back when he told them that they needed to get materials when his plan is realized? What could he possibly mean by that?

I've given that one some thought. I honestly don't have a clue. Amusingly, Moro's dialogue would suggest it's the materials that matter more to his "ideals" than the underlings themselves. This could lead somewhere interesting.

If there's one thing I have to give to the arc, Moro has become almost infinitely more intriguing as an antagonist than he was initially presented. He's not very different from Piccolo Daimao, but he works towards his ambitions in somewhat elusive ways and has (more recently) posed some fairly unique challenges to the heroes. I'm eager to see where Toyotaro takes him.

[Rakurai]

There is a difference between the stated morals/themes of a franchise and those actually depicted by the story. For example, according to all the speeches in Naruto the moral of the story is being more than what fate wanted you to be. The actual story of Naruto is about how your birth and family determine everything about you and how little hard work and self determination accomplish.

Naruto & Sasuke defied their fates of forever being in conflict, as guided by being the reincarnations of the brothers, & actually ended up cooperating. So in a way, it was still being more than what fate wanted them to be.

Naruto was still a hard worker irregardless of whether he was the 4th's son or not. Being the 4th's son just made his circumstances a little more complicated, but it doesn't negate the fact that he worked his ass off to make some gains (prior to the massive Six Paths powerup) & required the help of many others.

The themes of Naruto were for the most part, consistent. So I don't think that's a good example.

Likewise, the ToP is nominally about cooperation and teamwork. Power is stated to be insufficient. Then Hit gets clowned because strategy and cooperation don't mean dick in the actual story whatever the characters are saying.

Hit got clowned cause Goku refused to cooperate w/ him any longer. Perhaps the outcome would've been a little bit different if Goku had helped out, but then again Jiren was on a whole other level so likely more than just those two were needed. Going 1v1 against Jiren was absolutely the worst case scenario.

Jiren refusing to help his teammates in danger is what fucked him over in the end too.

And teamwork was what allowed U7 to win in the end.

That's simply not true.

I just didn't think it was worth doing, since this thread is constantly being posted in, constantly active, constantly receiving traffic, and it doesn't even seem like anyone ever had trouble finding it.

I went ahead and stickied it earlier since a few folks asked. *shrug emoticon here*

(Personally, I don't really see any value in a sticky thread, but folks historically seem to like them...)

Regardless, thanks for doing this!

[jplaya2023]

why can't goten and trunks get some serious character development and start to grow up and start defending the earth.

Let them go in the ROSAT for 4 days learn ssj2 and ssj3 and start to understand god ki and how to use it as gotenks

[LightBing]

This chapter is very telling of how this whole arc was poorly planned.

There's no build up for all these characters returning. Here we have them telling us and showing us their training, which we didn't saw.
Had we not wasted time in a bunch of Moro rematches which gave us nothing, maybe this whole conflict might have felt more whole.

It's a shame, I didn't dislike the chapter but overall it reeks of fan-service and mediocrity. Gohan's and Piccolo's teamwork is easily the highlight.

Goten and Trunks, with their personalities and abilities makes it unbelievable for the readers they wouldn't intervene. They can feel ki, we all read the Boo Arc...
If modern Dragon Ball is really that keen on removing them of the equation, at least have Bulma build a room which blocks ki, fill it full of toys and done, in-universe explanation for their removal.

Going forward, really just hoping for some highlights from Goku and Vegeta. Maybe this weak arc will realize the narrative of finally putting Vegeta and Goku on branching paths, instead of Super Saiyan transformation number 99 and beyond...

[GodVegetto91]

This chapter is very telling of how this whole arc was poorly planned.

There's no build up for all these characters returning. Here we have them telling us and showing us their training, which we didn't saw.
Had we not wasted time in a bunch of Moro rematches which gave us nothing, maybe this whole conflict might have felt more whole.

It's a shame, I didn't dislike the chapter but overall it reeks of fan-service and mediocrity. Gohan's and Piccolo's teamwork is easily the highlight.

Goten and Trunks, with their personalities and abilities makes it unbelievable for the readers they wouldn't intervene. They can feel ki, we all read the Boo Arc...
If modern Dragon Ball is really that keen on removing them of the equation, at least have Bulma build a room which blocks ki, fill it full of toys and done, in-universe explanation for their removal.

Going forward, really just hoping for some highlights from Goku and Vegeta. Maybe this weak arc will realize the narrative of finally putting Vegeta and Goku on branching paths, instead of Super Saiyan transformation number 99 and beyond...

Uhm, the transformation numbers ended with the beginning of Super. We got SSJ God, instead of SSJ4. We got SSGSS (SSJ Blue), instead of SSJ5. We got SSJ Blue Evolution, instead of SSJ6, We got Ultra Instinct, instead of SSJ7.

[Alruneia]

why can't goten and trunks get some serious character development and start to grow up and start defending the earth.

Let them go in the ROSAT for 4 days learn ssj2 and ssj3 and start to understand god ki and how to use it as gotenks

Goten and Trunks don't have to get massive powerups in order to be relevant. They're already strong and able to fight alongside the others when defending Earth. Toyotaro can already not use weakness as an excuse to not have them in the story (and he doesn't, instead he writes them out with the Monster Island copout). I do agree that they should grow up, but in order to do that, they first have to show up. Baby steps and all.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

There is a difference between the stated morals/themes of a franchise and those actually depicted by the story. For example, according to all the speeches in Naruto the moral of the story is being more than what fate wanted you to be. The actual story of Naruto is about how your birth and family determine everything about you and how little hard work and self determination accomplish.

Naruto & Sasuke defied their fates of forever being in conflict, as guided by being the reincarnations of the brothers, & actually ended up cooperating. So in a way, it was still being more than what fate wanted them to be.

Naruto was still a hard worker irregardless of whether he was the 4th's son or not. Being the 4th's son just made his circumstances a little more complicated, but it doesn't negate the fact that he worked his ass off to make some gains (prior to the massive Six Paths powerup) & required the help of many others.

The themes of Naruto were for the most part, consistent. So I don't think that's a good example.

They were still locked in combat up until the plot realized it needed to wrap itself up (some 400 episodes in fact.) Their lives were still dictated by literal prophecy as evidenced by the fact that besides that one detail they otherwise adhered completely to their predestined routes. And Naruto is not a hardworker. He was the laziest character in the series, never bothering to train his abilities and always needing someone else to figure out a work around for it. Compare him to Neji or Rock Lee or hell even Sakura, characters who had to work for their abilities without the benefit of magical plot device frogs.

Hit got clowned cause Goku refused to cooperate w/ him any longer. Perhaps the outcome would've been a little bit different if Goku had helped out, but then again Jiren was on a whole other level so likely more than just those two were needed. Going 1v1 against Jiren was absolutely the worst case scenario.

Jiren refusing to help his teammates in danger is what fucked him over in the end too.

And teamwork was what allowed U7 to win in the end.

What fucked Jiren in the end was that Goku got a new power up which threw a monkey wrench in his plans. If that hadn't happened, he would have walked over the remainder of Goku and Assorted Hanger-ons exactly as he had planned.

And my point on the ToP stands; its claims of being about strategy, teamwork, and skill were laughable. Everyone, every team that depended on those things, were completely clowned in the end. At best, streategy and teamwork made minimal contributions to the finale with only the two most physically powerful teams remaining. If stategy, teamwork, and skill were so important, why was every team structured around those things jobbed out? Because the Tournament of Power was about power.

[Kinokima]

I kind of agree that the Tournament of Power may have been about team work but the series did a poor job of thematically portraying it.

In the anime Goku does think about the contributions of his teammates (which is a rare thing I liked about the anime version) and there were a few moments where characters teamed up but overall it was such a wasted opportunity. You have all these characters who barely worked together before and the anime and manga could have made interesting team ups with the U7 team but instead only Goku really got to team up with everyone.


Like for example if you had one of the human characters teaming up with a more powerful character to see how they could benefit each other

Or even something like Piccolo/17 or Vegeta/Android 18 to show characters who fought in the past working together.


You could argue they did the latter with Freeza/Goku but it loses it for me since Freeza hasn’t changed at all and thus it’s just another Goku working with his enemy which has been done before and doesn’t add anything thematically to the idea of team work for me.

[Brojack]

That's simply not true.

Yet it obviously is. He's a moderator, three of the five stickied threads were his own, none of the more relevant and active threads were stickied.

He took advantage of his position to just sticky his own threads. Either that's exactly what happened or someone else happened to sticky his threads.

[VegettoEX]

I don’t think you realize, but you’re quoting and talking to one of the people that owns this website and approves what gets stickied! (Hey, that’s me!)

(Also, stickies totally aren't important or any kind of judgement on value as far as I’m concerned, and this off-topic conversation is donezo por favor!)

[Brojack]

Uhm, the transformation numbers ended with the beginning of Super. We got SSJ God, instead of SSJ4. We got SSGSS (SSJ Blue), instead of SSJ5. We got SSJ Blue Evolution, instead of SSJ6, We got Ultra Instinct, instead of SSJ7.

It's all the same thing. Super Saiyan God is just another Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan Blue is just another Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan Blue Evolution is just another Super Saiyan.

Ultra Instinct is the only thing that's different and even then not that much. It's still yet another form for a Saiyan with different hair and a power up. The gimmick supposedly being that it can't be touched because it moves automatically but as soon as Jiren hit him then it was just the same old thing.

It's all the same nonsense just without the number. There's a chance for this Spirit Control but I won't hold my breathe.

I don’t think you realize, but you’re quoting and talking to one of the people that owns this website and approves what gets stickied! (Hey, that’s me!)

That's irrelevant to what I said but whatever. Stop harrassing me.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

That's irrelevant to what I said but whatever. Stop harrassing me.

Replying back and argueing is not the same as harrassing, pick a dictionary and read the meaning of the word.

[Brojack]

That's irrelevant to what I said but whatever. Stop harrassing me.

Replying back and argueing is not the same as harrassing, pick a dictionary and read the meaning of the word.

Nah he was badgering me in another thread over something the other day too.

The word is also "arguing" not "argueing", something you would know if you ever actually bothered to look in a dictionary. See how that backfired on you? Mind your business next time.

[fleahop]

I really enjoyed this chapter. Only thing I'm slightly upset over is not being able to see the earthlings train but I have a suspicion why they didn't do that.

By the way, not everything they do is fanservice. There are characters in a story, those characters do things.

Also, if I had it my way I would imagine there would be a lot of complaints of "filler" so on and so forth.

I'm just saying we're being awfully negative after seeing a smart Piccolo and Gohan team up, new moves, on point characterizations, good art (imo), accurate and thought-out statements by the characters, and more. Let's lighten up.

[Rakurai]

They were still locked in combat up until the plot realized it needed to wrap itself up (some 400 episodes in fact.) Their lives were still dictated by literal prophecy as evidenced by the fact that besides that one detail they otherwise adhered completely to their predestined routes. And Naruto is not a hardworker. He was the laziest character in the series, never bothering to train his abilities and always needing someone else to figure out a work around for it. Compare him to Neji or Rock Lee or hell even Sakura, characters who had to work for their abilities without the benefit of magical plot device frogs.

What fucked Jiren in the end was that Goku got a new power up which threw a monkey wrench in his plans. If that hadn't happened, he would have walked over the remainder of Goku and Assorted Hanger-ons exactly as he had planned.

And my point on the ToP stands; its claims of being about strategy, teamwork, and skill were laughable. Everyone, every team that depended on those things, were completely clowned in the end. At best, streategy and teamwork made minimal contributions to the finale with only the two most physically powerful teams remaining. If stategy, teamwork, and skill were so important, why was every team structured around those things jobbed out? Because the Tournament of Power was about power.

Okay, I don't wanna get further into a Naruto discussion since that's off-topic so agree to disagree. But I'm more than welcome to continue anytime offline.

I didn't say individual strength/power wasn't an important factor. But teamwork was absolutely relevant as well, either for support or for remaining on site as long as possible.

There were many themes going on in that arc, one of which was definitely teamwork. We kept seeing it come back again & again. Even if it didn't necessarily triumph over monsters like Goku or Jiren, it absolutely helped tip scales against opponents who were weakening like Berserker Kale & Jiren, or allowed other universes to stay a little longer, like U6 (Cabba's sacrifice) & U7. Even the U9 trio were able to give Gohan trouble cause of their combo plays.

17 & Freeza's cunning strategy fooled Jiren & his universe & allowed U7 to win.

And Jiren's own arrogance proved to be his own downfall. The point driven in the manga is that if he had helped his teammates out, then things could've been much more different given all of the circumstances that happened.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

That's irrelevant to what I said but whatever. Stop harrassing me.

Replying back and argueing is not the same as harrassing, pick a dictionary and read the meaning of the word.

Nah he was badgering me in another thread over something the other day too.

The word is also "arguing" not "argueing", something you would know if you ever actually bothered to look in a dictionary. See how that backfired on you? Mind your business next time.

That's a little rude, man. I don't think anime is important enough to get pissy at each over. If there was a misunderstanding I don't see why you couldn't just correct them and move on.

There were many themes going on in that arc, one of which was definitely teamwork. We kept seeing it come back again & again. Even if it didn't necessarily triumph over monsters like Goku or Jiren, it absolutely helped tip scales against opponents who were weakening like Berserker Kale & Jiren, or allowed other universes to stay a little longer, like U6 (Cabba's sacrifice) & U7. Even the U9 trio were able to give Gohan trouble cause of their combo plays.

17 & Freeza's cunning strategy fooled Jiren & his universe & allowed U7 to win.

I'm sorry but, one or two instances of strategy making a nice supplement to raw strength doesn't really validate the idea that strategy was important during the ToP. At that point you might as well argue that strategy and teamwork were important in the fight against Freeza back on Namek because PIccolo held off Freeza long enough for Goku to finish the Genki Dama. Ultimately it didn't matter because that fight against Freeza was a test of strength much like how in the ToP strategy and teamwork ultimately did nothing to help anyone except a very small number of participants.

[Ronin]

I'm enjoying this for the most part. Doesn't feel like a continuation of canon, but more like an okay filler arc or movie. It's doing its job of entertaining me and that's all I can ask for. Still think there are some out of character moments and dialogue here and there, but it's not as bad as it was before. The plot twist with Merus was awesome. I thought Merus training Goku was another weird thing that didn't make sense at first, since that happened a lot in earlier DBS, but they actually managed to surprise me in a good way. All that weird nonsensical stuff in other arcs has helped me to enjoy this more and even get caught off guard with a plot twist.

I also like how Goku and Vegeta don't spend the entire time side-by-side with their bromance that they've been having for too long, though I think Vegeta's training could've been better. I don't know if going to Yardrat was a good idea, but maybe they have a secret technique Goku never heard about. We'll have to see how it pans out.

I don't think they know how to fit Goten and Trunks in the story either. They're the strongest ones on Earth right now after Gohan, they should definitely be part of the fight and even if they were told not to join, it's out of character for them to not sneak around and get involved. You'd think at this point, they wouldn't have a choice anyway given how it's like almost the entire Earth is under attack. Even Tien and Yamcha are fighting.

But overall, I am enjoying it. It's not one of my favorites, but I'll likely go back and read it again (as long as the ending isn't really bad). I'm totally okay if the manga continues with more arcs like this and maybe Toyotaro will keep improving.

[Brojack]

I'm enjoying this for the most part. Doesn't feel like a continuation of canon, but more like an okay filler arc or movie.

I think even that's being a bit kind. I've seen a lot of praise for this arc from fans and I have no idea what they're smoking. It's been terrible.

There's next to no worthwhile story involved here. Some goat wizard just randomly pops up, frees some bad guys and then goes around eating planets until he decides to go to Earth so the main characters have to band together to stop them.

Thats the actual plot. Any little kid could have come up with something like that.

Moro has no personality whatsoever, his gimmick of being a wizard just boils down to him being a ripoff of Cell and absorbing energy to get stronger. His character design is so bad that there's no way Toriyama could have done it. He's had no build up, he hasn't been explored, he just literally came out of nowhere.

The whole story is just recycled. They went and fought on Namek until it was destroyed again... couldn't even be bothered to create a new planet. Now they're fighting on Earth again when the story allowed the possibility to have other locations.

People are happy that the other characters are involved...doing what? They're doing nothing but fighting no name scrubs.

The fights have been forgettable. None of the new characters are interesting except at a push Merus whose gone now. Goku and Vegeta are gonna show up at the last minute to stop the main bad guy yet again.

This whole arc is pretty much just a recycled version of the Resurrection F movie. It's entirely shallow.