"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by VegettoEX » Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:17 pm

Young-Jah wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:08 pm When will chapter 76 comes out.
The Dragon Ball Super manga is serialized in Shueisha's V-Jump magazine, which is a monthly publication. It is released on the 21st of each month, barring a Sunday or holiday, in which case it gets moved up to the next available day (which isn't itself a Sunday or a holiday).

The November 2021 issue of V-Jump will be released September 21, 2021.

For quite some time now, Shueisha and their partners (namely Viz) have been releasing their official international translations digitally timed to the exact midnight release in Japan, which generally means 10 or 11 a.m. eastern time (depending on daylight saving) the day "before" the magazine hits shelves in Japan.

This means the next chapter will be available Monday, September 20, at 11:00 a.m. eastern time.

(In the week leading up to a chapter's release, the official Japanese Dragon Ball website shares several pages of the storyboards/drafts for a chapter. These are generally removed from the website by the time the chapter formally releases. It is Shueisha's attempt at controlling the narrative around a chapter's release and combating the piracy/leaks that generally occur during that time.)
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Young-Jah » Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:54 pm

VegettoEX wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:17 pm
Young-Jah wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:08 pm When will chapter 76 comes out.
The Dragon Ball Super manga is serialized in Shueisha's V-Jump magazine, which is a monthly publication. It is released on the 21st of each month, barring a Sunday or holiday, in which case it gets moved up to the next available day (which isn't itself a Sunday or a holiday).

The November 2021 issue of V-Jump will be released September 21, 2021.

For quite some time now, Shueisha and their partners (namely Viz) have been releasing their official international translations digitally timed to the exact midnight release in Japan, which generally means 10 or 11 a.m. eastern time (depending on daylight saving) the day "before" the magazine hits shelves in Japan.

This means the next chapter will be available Monday, September 20, at 11:00 a.m. eastern time.

(In the week leading up to a chapter's release, the official Japanese Dragon Ball website shares several pages of the storyboards/drafts for a chapter. These are generally removed from the website by the time the chapter formally releases. It is Shueisha's attempt at controlling the narrative around a chapter's release and combating the piracy/leaks that generally occur during that time.)
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Sun Sep 12, 2021 1:23 pm

I'd like to return to the question of Vegeta, Ultra Ego and connection with the abilities of the Gods of Destruction, to make a suggestion (which I'd also like to flesh out in a proper topic of its own at some point, when I find the time and energy):

The connection is to be found in the tenets of Daoism, and its notion of realisation of the True Self by means of alignment with one's Innate Nature - in so doing, one becomes whole, and entirely natural and spontaneous, realising one's own virtue - De, in Chinese (meaning 'virtue' not in the sense of 'moral excellence', but rather 'power' or 'capacity', like a herbalist may refer to the 'virtues' of a particular plant). A being whose existence is truly aligned with De is a being who will act spontaneously in the most fitting manner for a particular situation, because they are acting in a way consonant with their own proper inner nature, which is itself a product of the Dao.

"Dao preceded Heaven and Earth. It unifies the many threads. It is the development of things, and the emergence of Nature. Without form, it contains all vastness. Its transformative energy precedes the formation of Heaven and Earth. Nothing can see its form; none can know its name. It is called Divine Power." (Guiguzi)

The Dao is the ultimate ground of being; an organic but Divine cosmic nullity that serves as the root of All things and the awesome power of which creates, nurtures and supports all that exists - Dao is the unitary, divine cosmic principle of which De is the concrete expression in the particular, specific innate natures of the myriad things that ground their being in the Dao). To become truly one's own self, a unitary being who realises one's own De and acts in accord with it, aligns with the Dao and its limitless power; one acts spontaneously from one's true nature.

For Human Beings, their True Nature is qing (Silence, Tranquility, Stillness), which explains why those things stand behind Ultra Instinct for Son Goku (who, despite his Saiyan biology, is by sentiment and training an Earthling - in addition, these characteristics have a deep affinity with the Dao as a whole anyway, which could sustain a whole discussion of its own), but Vegeta is by sentiment and training a Saiyan Warrior; his True Nature is that of combat, the joy therefrom, and the strength it gives. He only activates Ultra Ego when he enters his "Happy place" of true battle for its own sake without diversion, because this is when he is most truly himself. His current state is one that spontaneously arises (as he notes when he says "A God of Destruction taught me...that power derived solely from instinct...is unbounded", and "This power is my own. This battle has awakened it for the first time. This innate power within me"), and produces a constant welling up of Divine Power.

The connection with Beerus and the Gods of Destruction specifically is twofold:
  • Firstly, Beerus's teachings connect on the level of realising one's own True, Innate Nature. As a God of Destruction, Beerus thinks about Destruction all the time, as he notes in Chapter 69. This alignment with his De is the ground of his own Divine Power, and the connection of De with Dao means that this power is the power of the All - "That's why there's no limit to my power". He expounds on the joy Destruction gives him in Chapter 70 - to align his true nature with his virtue like this is what he's teaching Vegeta.
  • Secondly, Beerus also mentions in Chapter 70 that the use of destruction is what makes him "turn something into nothing", which itself releases massive power. I believe the literal line is "We turn 1 into a 0", which sounds to me like a direct reference and a counter-movement of a well-known Daoist precept:

    "The Number One of Dao was born.
    A dyad from this monad formed.
    The dyad next a triad made;
    The triad bred the myriad,
    Each holding Yang
    and held by Yin,
    Whose powers' balanced interaction
    Brings all Ten Thousand to fruition."
    (Dao De Jing 42).

    So, 0 begets 1, 1 begets 2, 2 begets 3, and 3 begets 10,000 (that is, all the things that populate existence). All the things that exist therefore find their root in the formless Dao, which holds the abundant power of spontaneous generation of all things. Therefore Beerus and other Gods of Destruction, when they use Hakai, move in reverse along this same process to make 1 into 0 - this means their technique is a path directly back to the Dao, which is the thing that generates all this power (this also provides a clear and direct linkage to Beerus's statement that "Before Creation comes Destruction" - turning things back to '0' via Destruction will spontaneously produce a new '1' from the Dao in due course).
So, for the TL;DR, Vegeta's Divine Power in Ultra Ego is the power of his Innate De, which is the active and particular aspect in Nature of the general, hidden cosmic principle of Dao, and Dao is the power that Gods of Destruction move back towards and access when they use their own Hakai power, hence the connection both to Destruction per se and to Beerus's own personal proclivities (his own De).

Welp, there it is. Maybe I've made some error, or future material will make this interpretation look wrongheaded, but I thought I'd throw it out there to contribute to the discussion of what Toyotarou and Toriyama might be going for in this arc particularly - I feel like this idea is strengthened when one interprets Vegeta's and Goku's forms as fundamentally opposed but also complementary with each other (as I noted in a previous post, like a Taijitu - 'Yin-Yang').

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by jd55513 » Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:00 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 1:23 pm I'd like to return to the question of Vegeta, Ultra Ego and connection with the abilities of the Gods of Destruction, to make a suggestion (which I'd also like to flesh out in a proper topic of its own at some point, when I find the time and energy):

The connection is to be found in the tenets of Daoism, and its notion of realisation of the True Self by means of alignment with one's Innate Nature - in so doing, one becomes whole, and entirely natural and spontaneous, realising one's own virtue - De, in Chinese (meaning 'virtue' not in the sense of 'moral excellence', but rather 'power' or 'capacity', like a herbalist may refer to the 'virtues' of a particular plant). A being whose existence is truly aligned with De is a being who will act spontaneously in the most fitting manner for a particular situation, because they are acting in a way consonant with their own proper inner nature, which is itself a product of the Dao.

"Dao preceded Heaven and Earth. It unifies the many threads. It is the development of things, and the emergence of Nature. Without form, it contains all vastness. Its transformative energy precedes the formation of Heaven and Earth. Nothing can see its form; none can know its name. It is called Divine Power." (Guiguzi)

The Dao is the ultimate ground of being; an organic but Divine cosmic nullity that serves as the root of All things and the awesome power of which creates, nurtures and supports all that exists - Dao is the unitary, divine cosmic principle of which De is the concrete expression in the particular, specific innate natures of the myriad things that ground their being in the Dao). To become truly one's own self, a unitary being who realises one's own De and acts in accord with it, aligns with the Dao and its limitless power; one acts spontaneously from one's true nature.

For Human Beings, their True Nature is qing (Silence, Tranquility, Stillness), which explains why those things stand behind Ultra Instinct for Son Goku (who, despite his Saiyan biology, is by sentiment and training an Earthling - in addition, these characteristics have a deep affinity with the Dao as a whole anyway, which could sustain a whole discussion of its own), but Vegeta is by sentiment and training a Saiyan Warrior; his True Nature is that of combat, the joy therefrom, and the strength it gives. He only activates Ultra Ego when he enters his "Happy place" of true battle for its own sake without diversion, because this is when he is most truly himself. His current state is one that spontaneously arises (as he notes when he says "A God of Destruction taught me...that power derived solely from instinct...is unbounded", and "This power is my own. This battle has awakened it for the first time. This innate power within me"), and produces a constant welling up of Divine Power.

The connection with Beerus and the Gods of Destruction specifically is twofold:
  • Firstly, Beerus's teachings connect on the level of realising one's own True, Innate Nature. As a God of Destruction, Beerus thinks about Destruction all the time, as he notes in Chapter 69. This alignment with his De is the ground of his own Divine Power, and the connection of De with Dao means that this power is the power of the All - "That's why there's no limit to my power". He expounds on the joy Destruction gives him in Chapter 70 - to align his true nature with his virtue like this is what he's teaching Vegeta.
  • Secondly, Beerus also mentions in Chapter 70 that the use of destruction is what makes him "turn something into nothing", which itself releases massive power. I believe the literal line is "We turn 1 into a 0", which sounds to me like a direct reference and a counter-movement of a well-known Daoist precept:

    "The Number One of Dao was born.
    A dyad from this monad formed.
    The dyad next a triad made;
    The triad bred the myriad,
    Each holding Yang
    and held by Yin,
    Whose powers' balanced interaction
    Brings all Ten Thousand to fruition."
    (Dao De Jing 42).

    So, 0 begets 1, 1 begets 2, 2 begets 3, and 3 begets 10,000 (that is, all the things that populate existence). All the things that exist therefore find their root in the formless Dao, which holds the abundant power of spontaneous generation of all things. Therefore Beerus and other Gods of Destruction, when they use Hakai, move in reverse along this same process to make 1 into 0 - this means their technique is a path directly back to the Dao, which is the thing that generates all this power (this also provides a clear and direct linkage to Beerus's statement that "Before Creation comes Destruction" - turning things back to '0' via Destruction will spontaneously produce a new '1' from the Dao in due course).
So, for the TL;DR, Vegeta's Divine Power in Ultra Ego is the power of his Innate De, which is the active and particular aspect in Nature of the general, hidden cosmic principle of Dao, and Dao is the power that Gods of Destruction move back towards and access when they use their own Hakai power, hence the connection both to Destruction per se and to Beerus's own personal proclivities (his own De).

Welp, there it is. Maybe I've made some error, or future material will make this interpretation look wrongheaded, but I thought I'd throw it out there to contribute to the discussion of what Toyotarou and Toriyama might be going for in this arc particularly - I feel like this idea is strengthened when one interprets Vegeta's and Goku's forms as fundamentally opposed but also complementary with each other (as I noted in a previous post, like a Taijitu - 'Yin-Yang').

Amazing post!

I actually attempted to make a analysis of Ultra Ego, in a similar vain, to the Philosophical references of Ultra Instinct.

I mainly used Buddhism but yes perhaps the Dao is a little more closer in target to Vegeta.

I do have similar research on this as well, but you explained it perfectly!!
I used Mushi-Dukugo and Fudōshin as my attempts at explaining the forms, but I believe this might be even better!

Here's the video if your interested!

https://youtu.be/WWHe7iNlH64

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Xeogran » Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:14 am


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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Noitsnothim » Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:26 am

Xeogran wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:14 am
He still has the other Senzu...don't count him out just yet

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jiren The Alpha » Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:59 am

Thats weird, i only see a drawing of the letter L :?:

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:08 pm

"Wow, this battle was so lame, Vegeta didn't fight until he was forced back into his base form and hardly able to stand back up. Gosh, that new transformation was such plot armor. So much for Granolah being the strongest in the universe!"

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:42 pm

Vegeta still has his senzu and could potentially unlock mastered ultra ego, so it's not over yet. If he loses, hopefuly the fan base isn't too hard on Toyo over it, he's a big Dragon Ball fan and genuinely has a lot of love and respect for the franchise, and he's trying to do his best with Toriyama's guidance.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:40 pm

Xeogran wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:14 am
"Who decides fate it is I!"

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Alruneia » Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:22 pm

Drafts. They show more or less what you'd expect, I guess? Personally I just hope this isn't hinting at the beginning of yet another large phase of this same one fight...
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ZodiacBeast » Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:18 pm

Alruneia wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:22 pm Drafts. They show more or less what you'd expect, I guess? Personally I just hope this isn't hinting at the beginning of yet another large phase of this same one fight...
Yeah, definitely hope that Goku coming back for Round 2 makes Granollah decide to end the fight, at which point the Heeters make their move or something. The fight between the three wasn't bad, but I feel like we should move on.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:41 am

I'm definitely ready to move on. Vegeta looks kinda rad in the armor-less leotard though. I'm hoping he goes back to his Buu arc outfit soon or a similar armor-less look.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:09 am

Geets will probably force himself to keep fighting like he usually does.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Xeogran » Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:22 am

PurestEvil wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:09 am Geets will probably force himself to keep fighting like he usually does.
I can only see this ending with an interruption now. Or their blasts collide and somehow will make both of them faint for a period of time, and we finally change the perspective to other characters.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:52 am

"Don't die, Vegeta"
[no response from Vegeta]
[surprised look from Goku]

It could certainly be a red herring. Or foreshadowing.

Part of me hopes that Vegeta does die here. I want to see if he gets sent to Heaven or Hell. He put up a great fight, and I wouldn't mind watching him fall to Granolah. The Cerealian DBs don't have a recharge period, so even if Heata makes a wish soon, Vegeta can easily get revived by the end of the arc.

(If Heata does get the wish, and Elec was especially smart, maybe Gas and Maki could catch the DBs before they fly away?)

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:26 am

batistabus wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:52 am "Don't die, Vegeta"
[no response from Vegeta]
[surprised look from Goku]

It could certainly be a red herring. Or foreshadowing.

Part of me hopes that Vegeta does die here. I want to see if he gets sent to Heaven or Hell. He put up a great fight, and I wouldn't mind watching him fall to Granolah. The Cerealian DBs don't have a recharge period, so even if Heata makes a wish soon, Vegeta can easily get revived by the end of the arc.
I mean, Vegeta dying would be quite a shock and would complicate this situation even further, but I wouldn’t hold my breath on it
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by jd55513 » Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:51 am

As for the "shocking and dormant revelation" being advertised on the Official DB website.
It's either the wish secrets(Granolah having UI and Hakai) Bardock, or Cerealieans being similar to Saiyans.

Only things I can think of right now, but this revelation has to relate to the title of the chapter("the fate of the Saiyans" and the context(them fighting).

Crackpot theory.
The double red eyes is a reference to the Saiyan Great apes, because perhaps Granolah is indeed a Saiyan hybrid 😂

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:43 pm

jd55513 wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:51 am Crackpot theory.
The double red eyes is a reference to the Saiyan Great apes, because perhaps Granolah is indeed a Saiyan hybrid 😂
That...is so outlandish that it might actually work...
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Alruneia » Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:24 pm

batistabus wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:52 am "Don't die, Vegeta"
[no response from Vegeta]
[surprised look from Goku]

It could certainly be a red herring. Or foreshadowing.

Part of me hopes that Vegeta does die here. I want to see if he gets sent to Heaven or Hell. He put up a great fight, and I wouldn't mind watching him fall to Granolah. The Cerealian DBs don't have a recharge period, so even if Heata makes a wish soon, Vegeta can easily get revived by the end of the arc.
They wouldn't dare. They totally, absolutely would not dare, Super has a history of playing things pretty safe and this would be the exact opposite of that. With that said... I'm honestly for it. It would be extremely unexpected for Super, which I think would be refreshing at this point. It has to be done for the sake of the story and not just for shock value, though.
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