"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:05 pm

There's a cameo of a Freeza army member also, I think it was the one that fucked up Kattatsu's spaceship on Namek when Gohan and Krilin landed there.

Wait, no, I don't think it was that guy, but I've seen that fella before.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:06 pm

batistabus wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:44 am Despite what Vegeta says, Goku is not soft because of Bardock. Bardock a soft because of Goku.
Yeah, I am pretty sure Vegeta's line about kindness "running in the family" was just a witty quip and not a serious deduction.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:07 pm

TKA wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:02 pm And Vegeta knowing who Bardock is makes sense since he was on the same squad as Raditz for half of his half.
We also know from Minus that Bardock knew Prince Vegeta’s personality, which implies they may have been on a mission together at least once.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:09 pm

What a forced insertion of Bardock into the story. :thumbdown:

Why did Bardock randomly spared those two? What about all the other children and mothers, Cerulians and Namekians? Why is it implied having Goku softened him up? Raditz was born before even showing up in the the panel, what changed?

This is grabbing Minus Bardock trait of having some connection to his sons and turning it up to 1000%.

That line about Bardock's kindness rubbing of Goku is wrong. Goku pre-head injury is a little monster and the manga tells us that. That line is cheesy and trying to retcon Goku's far more interesting origin.

Let's see how Goku reacts to these developments and if this fan-service has actual value to the story besides forcing Granolah to stop, which could have been done in a number of different, more organic ways. Like demonstrating Goku saved the Universe a couple of times, certainly that would convince the vengeful Cerulian.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:13 pm

The Monkey King wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:03 pm OG-Bardock's story was a tragedy of a futile attempt to change the future, karma coming back to haunt the saiyan race, the conspiracy of Freeza's intention to wipe out the saiyans was told much better, with Dadoria slaughtering Bardock's crew and other saiyans not believing Bardock when he tried to warn them, leading him to face off against Freeza alone, creating one of the most iconic scenes in Dragon Ball history.

But no, now we're left with a space pirate turned tsundere, who simply had a 'hunch' that the complete genocide of his race might take place.

We've had a great story effectively replaced by a boring one, as a Dragon Ball fan I really do hate this.
It's shallow critique like this that will force me to defend the current Bardock, even though I have no strong feelings about him.

First of all, none of this is a retcon. Toriyama didn't write the Bardock special. It was never part of his Dragonball.

Secondly, none of the narrative bits you've mentioned were done away with. I'd argue that Frieza's eradication of the saiyans in this new version is better, since they make a point to mention that he actually called them all back to the planet, whereas in the special saiyans could be all over the universe when he destroys Vegeta.

But I digress. Don't cling too dearly to the past. Hypothetically, even if this version sucks ass, you can still go watch the Special any time you want. It will literally always be there. If you want me to go more in depth about why the special sucks compared to what we have now, click my sig. I'd rather not rehash all those points again.
Last edited by TKA on Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:15 pm

LightBing wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:09 pm
Why is it implied having Goku softened him up? Raditz was born before even showing up in the the panel, what changed?
I think Goku must have reminded Bardock of someone. And maybe that someone was also called Kakarot, which is why he had no hesitation when coming up with a name on the spot?

As it is, the naming scene was a bit pointless so maybe there’s more to it. Maybe.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:18 pm

TKA wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:13 pmI'd argue that Frieza's eradication of the saiyans in this new version is better, since they make a point to mention that he actually called them all back to the planet, whereas in the special saiyans could be all over the universe when he destroys Vegeta.
If that's your reasoning, then it's not that much better. As it's said that not all Saiyans will manage to go back in one month time. So there can be more Saiyans out there, only less if comparared to the TV Special.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:18 pm

TKA wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:02 pm I like Bardock's characterization. He isn't thinking any of this through and is acting on just emotion. At one point he's even chastising himself for going out of his way to help people out of sentimentality. It shows that he's still a bad dude, who has done a lot of bad stuff, but because this one thing reminds him of something personal, he can put all that aside and help. It's sorta like how every right-wing politician goes "I used to hate gay people until I had a gay son." Bardock wouldn't do this for anyone; he's doing it because these specific people reminded him of his wife and kid.
I don't think that analogy fits in this context. Those right-wing politicians only say they like gay people after their kid came out because of the social pressures and stress of denouncing your child (as a public figure, that is). The Saiyan society in the time of the flashback was still pretty brutish and genocidal, and we don't have any clues to infer that Bardock is not the only Saiyan who did such a thing.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Brettjr25 » Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:20 pm

TKA wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:13 pm
The Monkey King wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:03 pm OG-Bardock's story was a tragedy of a futile attempt to change the future, karma coming back to haunt the saiyan race, the conspiracy of Freeza's intention to wipe out the saiyans was told much better, with Dadoria slaughtering Bardock's crew and other saiyans not believing Bardock when he tried to warn them, leading him to face off against Freeza alone, creating one of the most iconic scenes in Dragon Ball history.

But no, now we're left with a space pirate turned tsundere, who simply had a 'hunch' that the complete genocide of his race might take place.

We've had a great story effectively replaced by a boring one, as a Dragon Ball fan I really do hate this.
It's shallow critique like this that will force me to defend the current Bardock, even though I have no strong feelings about him.

First of all, none of this is a retcon. Toriyama didn't write the Bardock special. It was never part of his Dragonball.

Secondly, none of the narrative bits you've mentioned were done away with. I'd argue that Frieza's eradication of the saiyans in this new version is better, since they make a point to mention that he actually called them all back to the planet, whereas in the special saiyans could be all over the universe when he destroys Vegeta.

But I digress. Don't cling to dearly to the past. Hypothetically, even if this version sucks ass, you can still go watch the Special any time you want. It will literally always be there. If you want me to go more in depth about why the special sucks compared to what we have now, click my sig. I'd rather not rehash all those points again.
Shallow?! His opinion was anything but that! People need to stop slinging insults to discredit opinions just because they dont like them. It's why online is such trash. "I disagree with this so lets sling some mud!" I loved reading his opinion and not only did it express why he thought it was better than the new version clearly and well thought out but also gave insight into the original Bardock special.


...Anyway. I'm glad we got some of those brutal shots on the panel of nameks (even) kids being ruthless executed. Reminding people that Freeza was a hitler level threat as seen in the original Dragon Ball instead of a sneaky, snarky, rival type as seen in Super. Hey Whis, thanks for bringing him back to life I guess.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:22 pm

There are a few nods at different Bardocks, right?

-Cloaked Bardock reminded me of SDBH and such where he is a more mysterious figure.
-His left shoulder injury, including his armour getting broken, reminded me of the TV Special.
-Having some Freeza "soldiers" around after the fight, after he all alone reminded me of Dodoria's ambush.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:23 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:18 pm
I don't think that analogy fits in this context. Those right-wing politicians only say they like gay people after their kid came out because of the social pressures and stress of denouncing your child (as a public figure, that is).
That’s a weird reading of that.

The point I’m making is the mere exposure effect. When they have queer children, they come to see the humanity in them. This doesn’t just happen with politicians; it also happens with various religious fundamentalists. Its also well documented with KKK members who have been deradicalized by being friends with black people.

Having personal experience with something makes you more disposed to liking that thing. This situation reminding Bardock of his partner and son is why he’s acting this way. It shocks even him.
Brettjr25 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:20 pmShallow?! His opinion was anything but that! People need to stop slinging insults to discredit opinions just because they dont like them. It's why online is such trash. "I disagree with this so lets sling some mud!" I loved reading his opinion and not only did it express why he thought it was better than the new version clearly and well thought out but also gave insight into the original Bardock special.
Shallow, yes, because I find these to be surface level critiques that have to ignore a lot of the incongruities and contrivances of the original Special in order to work. “Shallow” is a descriptor, not an insult.
Grimlock wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:18 pm If that's your reasoning, then it's not that much better. As it's said that not all Saiyans will manage to go back in one month time. So there can be more Saiyans out there, only less if comparared to the TV Special.
No, that’s not my reasoning. That’s just what happened in the story. The plot is the least interesting aspect of any story, as it’s just the ABCs of what happened. That’s all that is.

My reasoning, the thematic substance of the new version, it far outclasses whatever the fuck the tv special from 30 years ago was trying to say.
Last edited by TKA on Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:26 pm

LightBing wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:09 pm Why did Bardock randomly spared those two? What about all the other children and mothers, Cerulians and Namekians?
To be fair, the chapter answers these questions. Bardock was going to kill everyone (including children and mothers) until he was specifically exposed to a mother holding her child, which reminded him of Gine and Kakarot.

That was probably the part I enjoyed most because it actually preserves the character and even explains why he becomes the way he does in Minus/Broly. There's a common theme in Dragon Ball of Goku rubbing off on people, and it's fully adhered to here in a small, indirect way.

It's fine in isolation; I just fail to see how any of this stuff relates to the arc's themes. Maybe next month's chapter will make that clearer.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by OrangeBanana » Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:29 pm

Alright I'll be honest without having more information about how this entire Bardock thing will tie into future events makes any commentary on it pretty mute at this moment. HOWEVER I'll contradict myself immediately and say that this is some godawful tier story telling, I dunno but personally having maybe a random saiyan save Granola and his mother as well as Monito would have made for a better twist at least for me. I get it that we already know Bardock in canon wasn't like the other saiyans but like others mentioned it is kinda weird to see a person who kills a bunch of people decide in the moment to spare a mother and her child, feels pretty forced.

But like I mentioned at the start its pointless to discuss this point in the story if we don't know where it leads. Other things about the chapter were good like the panelling and art, Toyotarou has gotten amazingly good at capturing certain emotions in panels as of late so I hope this continues forward.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by eledoremassis02 » Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:31 pm

Thought it was ok. Bardock is in line with ''toriyama bardock''. The one thing I did not like was Bardock not knowing how pregnancy works. Goku's like that because he's stunted from living alone (and up to a certain point, thats a tretch too)

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:33 pm

TKA wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:23 pmNo, that’s not my reasoning. That’s just what happened in the story. The plot is the least interesting aspect of any story, as it’s just the ABCs of what happened. That’s all that is.

My reasoning, the thematic substance of the new version, it far outclasses whatever the fuck the tv special from 30 years ago was trying to say.
Yeah, sorry. "Reasoning" wasn't the right word here. I just wanted to point out that while the TV Special implies a number of Saiyans could be anywhere when Freeza destroyed the planet, Dragon Ball Minus also implies that, but to a less extent given the amount of time Saiyans had to come back to the planet, but they also said that not everyone will manage to arrive on the planet within one month.

(We also see two other Saiyans with Nappa, Raditz and Vegeta in Movie 1. Who knows if they had children of their own).
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:36 pm

Anyway, if you think this takes away from the "tragedy" of Bardock, then you probably have a murky understanding of what a tragedy in literature is.

Bardock in the tv special is a tragic character because when he starts to make the change to be a better person, he dies. He never gets to reap the benefits of his change because his past catches up to him.

We know how this Bardock meets his end. He dies a low-class Saiyan with the rest of his race, but the tragedy is different. This Bardock cares about his family, and his tragedy is that he will never get to be with them. He will never get to see his sons grow, nor raise them with his wife.

Where the tv special fails is it gives Bardock solace because he gets to see the future. He gets to see that his son kills Frieza. He dies laughing because his sacrifice now meant something. The special ends on a hopeful note in that regard. This Bardock gets no such solace. He fucking dies knowing he'll never get to raise his son.

The only way the tragedy of Bardock will get ruined is if he shows up as a force ghost and gets to talk to Goku. That would undermine it.

(Also, your Super Saiyan Bardocks, and your Time Breaker Bardocks already shit on the tv special's ending, but for much shallower reasons. That ship has sailed over a decade ago.)
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:45 pm

Broli film: "What if Bardock was becoming disillusioned with the Saiyan way just as the planet was destroyed?"
Granola arc: "What was leading Bardock to become disillusioned with the Saiyan way?"

Well, clearly we got some hints at that here. It's a consistent characterization and actually interesting to see unfold. It's too bad how it centers women less as having their own stories and more as being tools for the development of men, though. I guess if Toriyama actually commits and gives Bardock an outright mommy fetish it'd at least be self-aware.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:53 pm

emperior wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:15 pm
LightBing wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:09 pm
Why is it implied having Goku softened him up? Raditz was born before even showing up in the the panel, what changed?
I think Goku must have reminded Bardock of someone. And maybe that someone was also called Kakarot, which is why he had no hesitation when coming up with a name on the spot?

As it is, the naming scene was a bit pointless so maybe there’s more to it. Maybe.
I think there's no point. It just for us to see Goku being named.
Mr Baggins wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:26 pm
LightBing wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:09 pm Why did Bardock randomly spared those two? What about all the other children and mothers, Cerulians and Namekians?
To be fair, the chapter answers these questions. Bardock was going to kill everyone (including children and mothers) until he was specifically exposed to a mother holding her child, which reminded him of Gine and Kakarot.

That was probably the part I enjoyed most because it actually preserves the character and even explains why he becomes the way he does in Minus/Broly. There's a common theme in Dragon Ball of Goku rubbing off on people, and it's fully adhered to here in a small, indirect way.

It's fine in isolation; I just fail to see how any of this stuff relates to the arc's themes. Maybe next month's chapter will make that clearer.
But in Minus he's still committing genocide. The idea that this was the moment his softness took effect doesn't work.

This is just exists because someone wanted to insert Bardock into the story. Monaito randomly survived the genocide, no reason for Granolah and his mom to do the same, there's no necessity to justify them being spared/saved in the story.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:54 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:45 pm Well, clearly we got some hints at that here. It's a consistent characterization and actually interesting to see unfold. It's too bad how it centers women less as having their own stories and more as being tools for the development of men, though. I guess if Toriyama actually commits and gives Bardock an outright mommy fetish it'd at least be self-aware.
To be fair, the flashback was told from Monaito's account, who was more concerned about telling Granolah about the Saiyan who saved him than his mother (due to the urgency of the situation).
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:58 pm

Forgot to mention but I didn't like that we don't see the Saiyans transforming into Oozaru. It's like they left the space pods as Oozarus already.

Anyway, it seems one of the Cerelians has a name, "Flayk" or something... You guys wanna bet that this guy is Granolah's father? :think:
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