"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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UpFromTheSkies
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:37 pm

All the "plot holes" and problems people are mentioning either have extremely obvious explanations or have already been addressed in the manga. It kinda makes me think people are deliberately looking for reasons not to like the manga, I'd like to hope that's not the case, but it seems that way.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jack Bz » Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:59 pm

UpFromTheSkies wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:34 pm
Jack Bz wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:24 pm This chapter left me wondering why Monaito didn't use the dragon balls to wish everyone back right after they were killed.

I have a feeling that he will try to use the dragon balls next chapter, but something will happen that will explain how the balls got separated.
Monaito and Granolah discuss this in chapter 69. Monaito sees the Dragon Balls as something very special that shouldn't be used outside the ritual they were intended for, and he also didn't want to kick out the Sugarians who had made the planet their home.
This makes sense for why they wouldn't use it now, but doesn't hold up for why he wouldn't use them right after the fact. At this point he doesn't even know or care about the sugarians.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:05 pm

The DBs were used at some point between the invasion and Granny's wish, if not they would've always been at Monaito's place. Unless he got rid of one of them so Granny wouldn't use them or know about it... I don't remember if Granola always knew about the DBs or how he learned about them.

edit: he already knew about them, Monaito said that he could never found the other one in 40 years. So either they used them for something after the invasion, or he just hid one away to prevent Granny from wishing for something stupid.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jack Bz » Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:10 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:05 pm The DBs were used at some point between the invasion and Granny's wish, if not they would've always been at Monaito's place. Unless he got rid of one of them so Granny wouldn't use them or know about it... I don't remember if Granola always knew about the DBs or how he learned about them.
I am thinking that Monaito got rid of the other ball so that Freeza/the Heetas wouldn't find both balls together. If he made a wish I'm not sure how he'd locate one of the balls again, and he has one in the present before the arc starts.

We know that Freeza and the Heetas won't find out about the dragon balls from Monaito as they were both unaware until decades later.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:30 pm

LightBing wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:29 pm Why wouldn't Monaito find a way of protecting Granolah from all the described above?
Why don't people in impoverished countries just move to more wealthy ones? Why don't people in bad positions just... go into good ones?!

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:18 pm

LightBing wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:41 am The Heeters appearance in the past is also somewhat forced, seems to be there to justify a whole of chapter of Gas vs Bardock; which is my prediction for the next chapter.
The Heeters' connection with the destruction of Granolah's planet had already been revealed at the beginning of the arc. First it was hinted when Granolah says they showed up to help rebuild Cereal, and in the next chapter Macki claims that they plotted the entire attack with Freeza. The only new thing we discovered in this chapter (if I'm not mistaken) is that this attack was not an isolated deal between the Heeters and Freeza, the group was actively part of these schemes with his empire and they worked for Freeza himself.

Even their presence on the planet at that time had already been hinted earlier when Gas mentions that Cereal brings back bad memories for him.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:44 pm

You know that Monaito didn't need to say the truth to Granolah for him not to work for the Heeters?
There's a million ways he could have gone about it instead of letting Granolah work for the people he would detest the most.

Saying nothing is awful and puts Granolah in danger all the same. If these people have no problem with mass-murder, why wouldn't they kill their employee if he failed or for greed? Is Monaito that naive or stupid?

This doesn't have to be black or white, shouldn't I expect Granolah's father figure to have some freaking arguments for him not to work for X people?

This paints Monaito in an awful light and that's why plot hole came to mind, because I doubt that's how Toyotarõ wants the character to be.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:59 pm

LightBing wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:44 pm You know that Monaito didn't need to say the truth to Granolah for him not to work for the Heeters?
There's a million ways he could have gone about it instead of letting Granolah work for the people he would detest the most.

Saying nothing is awful and puts Granolah in danger all the same. If these people have no problem with mass-murder, why wouldn't they kill their employee if he failed or for greed? Is Monaito that naive or stupid?

This doesn't have to be black or white, shouldn't I expect Granolah's father figure to have some freaking arguments for him not to work for X people?

This paints Monaito in an awful light and that's why plot hole came to mind, because I doubt that's how Toyotarõ wants the character to be.
But you do know there's still a big part of the story left to be told, right? we don't even know how Bardock got off the planet, why he never spilled the beans about Elecc, or how Monaito and Granola survived.

All of these points your bring up could, easily, and should, be addressed next month.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:43 pm

Jack Bz wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:59 pm
UpFromTheSkies wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:34 pm
Jack Bz wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:24 pm This chapter left me wondering why Monaito didn't use the dragon balls to wish everyone back right after they were killed.

I have a feeling that he will try to use the dragon balls next chapter, but something will happen that will explain how the balls got separated.
Monaito and Granolah discuss this in chapter 69. Monaito sees the Dragon Balls as something very special that shouldn't be used outside the ritual they were intended for, and he also didn't want to kick out the Sugarians who had made the planet their home.
This makes sense for why they wouldn't use it now, but doesn't hold up for why he wouldn't use them right after the fact. At this point he doesn't even know or care about the sugarians.
Because they're only meant to be used for a specific ritual. Monaito is devout to Namekian customs and traditions.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:45 pm

Granolah is a 50-year-old man, stubborn and hot headed. He openly told Monaito that he was going to take down Frieza and his goons, so regardless of his concerns I doubt the Namekian would be able to prevent Granolah from performing whatever job he wants. And knowing that, it seems especially a bad idea to tell about the Heeters knowing his nature.

Granolah is also a bounty hunter, so naturally he will always be in danger no matter what groups he works with anyway

On top of that, Monaito thinks that he ruined Granolah's life and that he was wrong for not telling truth before. So it's not like the story is painting him as someone who always made the right decisions

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:47 pm

LightBing wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:44 pm There's a million ways he could have gone about it instead of letting Granolah work for the people he would detest the most.for him not to work for X people?
Characters are allowed to be flawed.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:49 pm

If I had a nickel for every time an elderly Namekian regrets not doing something to stop a bad/evil thing from happening, I would have two nickels.
Which isn't much but it's weird it happened twice...
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:05 pm

The main thing I liked was Baby Kakarott in the incubation chapter looked just like Baby Goku in the anime when Grandpa Gohan found him. The device around his waist looks like a diaper. Toyotarou does love us after all.

Not sure how I feel about the chapter outside of that. DB does this genocide thing far too often for my tastes, especially for a work that doesn't have much to say about them. I did enjoy the character design and callbacks to the Bardock TV Special. So I'll keep it at that.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:07 pm

Mr Baggins wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:07 pm
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:17 am I think that's all fair enough and I agree with much of it, but I wasn't primarily trying to defend the TV special.
To be clear, I was just piggybacking off that part of your post because I've seen a lot of people mention it.

Not sure I'd agree with the notion that this chapter betrays Minus Bardock's character, especially given his surprised reaction to having saved three people he was supposed to murder, but I do think it all seems a bit pandering at the moment. Jury's still out for me.
Ah, okay, gotcha. I'm also willing to hear it out for now, but I found myself verbally saying "what the fuck" while reading the Bardock bits on the train. I'm quite used to reading dramatic twists on the train, but I've never had a WTF reaction that vocally until now. :lol:

Betrayal may be a strong word, but I guess I oughta explain my case. One of the main emotionally resonant beats in Minus and the movie is that Bardock, a career mass murderer, finally decides to save something rather than destroy it, for once in his life. While Gine says he's becoming nicer, there's no indication that he's done anything this selfless before. In my view, the premise that he's actually done this all before with some random Cerealian kid on the enemy side (with quite bad consequences for himself so far) kinda cheapens his big risk to save his own son. It's like making a prequel to Pulp Fiction and saying that Jules has already given the whole Ezekiel speech to another robber couple he spared in another café, years before the movie. Toriyama Bardock is ostensibly meant to be an average, unremarkable Saiyan footsoldier yet aside from that one panel in Minus, he's never been shown acting or doing anything remotely Saiyan-like.
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:17 am I think there is some merit in criticising a reimagining of a pre-existing character when they act in ways that betray the original work.
I'd wholeheartedly agree with that under almost any other circumstance, but in this case, it's Toriyama doing the revising. As the original creator, Dragon Ball is his baby and he understands it more than anyone. He alone has the right to change specific characters not conceived by him if they don't fit his interpretation in his story.

But even just preferentially speaking, I'm totally on board with Toriyama's direction of Bardock on principle. I've already said a lot about the TV special in this thread, and I have a whole slew of other problems I haven't even mentioned yet (including Bardock's characterization, or lack thereof, which I've touched on elsewhere). I won't pretend that Minus by itself is perfect by any means, but it sowed the seeds for what would become a movie I found emotionally impactful in a variety of ways that the original special could never dream of measuring up to, in my view.

With that said, I guess my point is that Toriyama's Bardock is a relatively blank slate in comparison to Toei's. The latter sits in a marred condition because of all the franchise's additions over the years, now akin to an old beat-up children's toy that's been chewed up by the family dog and dragged through the mud and back. The former is still relatively untainted on its own terms; the next chapter could screw everything up and totally undercut what even Minus/Broly tried to accomplish, but at least that's the first strike, ya know?
Oof... I wouldn't say Toei Bardock lacked personality or characterisation. That's a bit harsh IMO. The whole plot thread of him being the Saiyan Cassandra (again, faulty implementation with the psychic powers, but his knowledge leads to some great drama), trying and failing to warn his people of impending doom, was very, very solid. He bought into the Saiyans' barbaric devil-may-care lifestyle completely until he was forced to reason with them in the bar and finally saw them for what they were. IMO they did a great job of establishing his personality as being so jarringly opposite to his son's, with some shared DNA still being visible, such as his love for his comrades and his great battle smarts.

Toriyama's Bardock still owes quite a great deal to that version (being a great team player, his final resistance against Freeza going down the same way, etc) which I believe is the reason it's so difficult for fans of Toei's version to adjust themselves to the increasingly stark differences. It's not quite like Broly, where the differences are very immediately obvious and the similarities are expanded upon in ways fans of the original version could appreciate (though you still have some diehard DEEBEEZEE BRO-ly stans making Virgin vs. Chad memes at the new version's expense) :lol:

Evidently, some people still love Toriyama's take on Bardock, which is awesome. But I can definitely sympathise with those that aren't as keen on the direction they're going with his character.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:16 pm

Jack Bz wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:59 pm I don't care about TV special Bardock.

I just hate them painting this Bardock as a good person while he's in the middle of a genocide because he spared the main character of the arc. It's trite. It's not necessarily how Bardock acts, but the people reacting to him. Just minutes earlier he was helping commit genocide on cerealians and namekians, and 1 act of kindness later he's now being healed by Monaito. Vegeta is saying that Goku inherited his soft-hearted nature. Because he didn't kill any named characters, no one really cares, and more responsibility of the situation is being attached to the Heetas than was necessary.
Kinda how I'm feeling too. DB often does this genocide thing then just brushes it off as "oh well". I hope this is the last one of these we see in the franchise because powerful emotional stories can be told without resulting in this level of destruction.

As far as Bardock goes, yeah, the story is a little heavy handed with the hero treatment when only a few panels previously he was dutifully exterminating 2 races of people. The connection to his change of heart is with him seeing a child which reminds him of his own, but it all feels quite weak tbh. Logically, him and his people would have killed many children and their mothers to completely wipe out the Cerealians. It's not like they were all combatants.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheMikado » Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:44 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:49 pm If I had a nickel for every time an elderly Namekian regrets not doing something to stop a bad/evil thing from happening, I would have two nickels.
Which isn't much but it's weird it happened twice...
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Tai Lung » Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:34 pm

Jinto wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:18 pm Ah shit...Here we go again !

I like this chapter just for Raditz being in it.
Let's make something clear guys for the bazillionth time : """"""Bardock IS.NOT.A.GOOD.GUY""""""".
Did we read the same chapter ? It seems many of you just see Bardock saving some leftover and cry that he is portrayed as """""good!!!!"""", The guy and his squad just ANNIHILATED A POPULATION FOR GOD SAKE !

The nuance here is that instead of being a straight up "bad guy", he is a guy that is driven by instinct (kind of like a baby) and got "infected" by Gine personality .
Vegeta is wrong, Goku's "kindness" doesn't come from Bardock, it comes from Gine that "infected"Bardock.

My problem here is Bardock's look, he is drawn like a goofball Toyotaro-Goku instead of the more angry face in the special.
the mistake is not that bardock is good ... is that he went so hard saving a woman and 1 child when he could simply ignore them leaving they unconscious but out of battles and not get his hands dirty with them ...
that makes him inconsistent ... i have no problem bardock hesitating to kill them ... he is like a predator ... he does not kill children or mothers because there is no honor of warrior in that

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:45 pm

But the point is precisely that he's acting out of character. He himself acknowledges that.

Bardock doesn't act like that, he doesn't know why he's acting like that and is surprised with himself that he's going to the lengths he's going for people he don't care about.

It's Gine's and Goku's influence rubbing off on him and reawakening the measure of humanity that is present - but suppressed by their culture - in every saiyan.

It's really as simple as that.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:27 pm

I absolutely adored this chapter. Super's been on fire lately. Both this and the previous have been some of its best single months, I think.

Super interesting getting more of a peak at the nature of Freeza's (infamously and purposefully) vague business dealings, I think the balance with Bardock's character--still being an awful person complicit in his culture's warring and genocide, but moved just slightly enough by his wife's reaction and seeing his second son to have a moment of hesitation confronted with Muezli and Granolah--comes across well, and the wrinkle of Goku now knowing of him is intriguing as well. Like with the rest of the Planet Vegeta-era Saiyans, he's likely to feel no good will toward their actions, but he now understands he had a father who might have been better in other circumstances.

Chronologically, Bardock also becomes the first terrible person to wind up becoming slightly less terrible due to Goku's accidental influence, too.

Art-wise, I love the way Toyotaro draws the ozaru. A little nostalgic from their appearances in Victory Mission. Feels kind of wild to be seeing them in Super period. This is the first time they've shown up in manga continuity at all since, what, literally the Saiyan arc?

Very curious to see where everything's going, and I love that I have a reason to care about basically every character and what their motivations and interests are this arc.

Re: Monite and Granolah: I think it's fairly easy to assume that Monite kept the truth from Granolah to prevent him from having an active target for revenge. The Saiyans were an extinct boogeyman he could leave him with, and they both understood he stood no chance against Freeza back when Freeza was still alive, but the Heetas were an achievable target he probably would have killed himself going after. Not necessarily the right choice (it's debatable), but an understandable one to instead leave him with the unknown indignity of working for his mother's killers/orchestrators of his planet's genocide if it meant being able to let go and live a peaceful life. There was no undoing the past at that point regardless.

The most unbelievable thing about this chapter is that Bardock would actually give his name to Monite after knowingly disobeying orders. Seems like a pretty big liability.
Jack Bz wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:59 pm I don't care about TV special Bardock.

I just hate them painting this Bardock as a good person while he's in the middle of a genocide because he spared the main character of the arc. It's trite. It's not necessarily how Bardock acts, but the people reacting to him. Just minutes earlier he was helping commit genocide on cerealians and namekians, and 1 act of kindness later he's now being healed by Monaito. Vegeta is saying that Goku inherited his soft-hearted nature. Because he didn't kill any named characters, no one really cares, and more responsibility of the situation is being attached to the Heetas than was necessary.
Definitely a danger zone there, but I felt the chapter managed to avoid it.

The horror of the genocide is still present (I was actually surprised the panels with the Namekians made it to print--there are kids in that group; a lack of punch-pulling I wondered if V-Jump could get away with), and it doesn't shy away from Bardock and crew being part of it. Monite heals him, but it's only natural to feel sympathy for someone who goes out of their way to go against orders and save you. He recognizes the risky humanity of Bardock's one humane action in the midst of an inhumane scenario.

Narratively, it would probably work better if this were his last mission before the prologue to Broly, but we see him gleefully taking out at least one more planet in "Minus." That's fine too. He has a moment of unexpected emotion, but it doesn't mean he'd turned the page on his life and was ready to desert his whole culture. Especially when confronted with anyone but a mother and child who specifically remind him of having just seen his own family.

Bardock and Gine are both totally in hell though, for the record.
UpFromTheSkies wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:43 pm
Jack Bz wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:59 pm
UpFromTheSkies wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:34 pm
Monaito and Granolah discuss this in chapter 69. Monaito sees the Dragon Balls as something very special that shouldn't be used outside the ritual they were intended for, and he also didn't want to kick out the Sugarians who had made the planet their home.
This makes sense for why they wouldn't use it now, but doesn't hold up for why he wouldn't use them right after the fact. At this point he doesn't even know or care about the sugarians.
Because they're only meant to be used for a specific ritual. Monaito is devout to Namekian customs and traditions.
In addition, what would happen if he did use the Dragon Balls right after? The Heetas alert Freeza's army that everyone on the planet they'd cleared out had suddenly come to life again?

They'd just call in another extermination and the cat would be out of the bag about the Dragon Balls now. The only way he and Granolah kept living was to lie low and accept the sale to the Sugarians. A revival wish wouldn't have changed anything for them, given the reason they were targeted.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:21 am

I infer that a reason why Bardock was portrayed “too heroically” was because the backstory was provided by Monaito, who would view him more positively.
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