"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Magnificent Ponta]

I think it's actually more of a stretch to claim all of those similarities in tandem, especially given their specificity, are purely coincidental.

However, I'm not claiming coincidence - I'm claiming that much of what is perceived to be direct derivation is in fact a pretty basic configuration of well-worn 'Dragon Ballish' elements that the franchise regularly uses as its 'stock-in-trade'. One doesn't need to posit connection to a specific antecedent character to explain broadly similar features.

Which is also why all the specific features you mention also have a number of otherwise unrelated (or not obviously related) exponents:

• The facial markings naturally have their first exponent in Freeza (as far as I can recall), but lots of unironically straightforward 'edgy/cool' Dragon Ball antagonists have these features, particularly once one moves beyond the main storyline. OG73-I is probably drawn from rejected concept art for Shiirasu/Sealas, a Toyotarou design (credit to DragonWukong, I think, for mentioning that way back when) - Moro's new facial features accommodate to that more human look. Which is, as I've said, simply a logical process without necessary reference to Cell.
• Characters using other characters' abilities has always been a staple of Dragon Ball, and it's been a feature for antagonists from Tenshinhan onwards. Why does Cell get a proprietary claim as the derivation for a feature that was seen before him and crops up a number of times?
• The 'absorption' connection is fairly tenuous - Moro quite literally eats things, whether the ki of others or OG73-I. You yourself mentioned that presentation makes a big difference - how differently does this have to be presented to not really be a salient comparison?
• The reveal panels are fairly typical of transformation reveals generally. Freeza's fourth form is pretty similar, too. Moving beyond villains, even the first depictions of the SSj forms aren't very different from this type of panel. Which is why I question its overall significance, as it emerges as something of a stylistic commonplace. Why is this more obviously an 'I want to reference Cell' beat than just a generic 'I want to showcase the new transformation in a way that new transformations are usually shown in Dragon Ball' beat?

Even when combined and re-combined, I just don't think that minor similarities like this, diffuse and recurrent throughout the series as they are, do enough to bolster claims of derivation from Cell specifically. And the overall design certainly doesn't. I mean, if I were to posit, "Toyotarou, like lots of creators related to the Dragon Ball franchise, agrees with Kondo's general sense of what looks cool and wants it in his work", that would explain what people are seeing just as capably as what it is they claim to see, from a design perspective, wouldn't it? Driving for a concrete connection to what seems a less-than-secure reference when you poke at it just seems to be overreach, to me. But I'm happy to give way to yourself and LoganForkHands73 after this post, having said my piece.

The question of whether or not it was intentional derivation (and I severely doubt it wasn't, seeing as Toyble is a bigger Dragon Ball nerd than most people here and the arc is full of homages) shouldn't really matter that much since we can't know for certain Toyotaro's, or any artist's intentions anyway. We can only interpret what's presented to us.

Sure, but that's kind of the issue I've been driving at, isn't it? The fandom is predisposed to make this specific set of interpretations, irrespective of how deliberately constructed the similarity is. And I think they've mostly been fishing up a red herring, is all.

But just because he is the only inspiration Toyotaro has publicly admitted to doesn't mean he's the only inspiration period. I think there's sprinklings of most Dragon Ball villains in Moro.

For sure, that's not an unreasonable position to take, in theory. I just think it's a lot more limited than people are disposed to see, and the reason I've picked on the fan identification of Cell as an inspiration (albeit, as you say, from that point on) is because beyond the face (which is mostly just a fairly standard Toriyama-style villain face constructed from some generic face bits, really), assertions of 'derivation' from Cell specifically seem very flimsy to me.

I see a misunderstanding from my own poor wording about gaining techniques, I should've made it clearer that's not what Cell did. Stealing Piccolo's regeneration kind of brings a circularity to it all, since both Cell and Moro stole from Piccolo (though the original Demon King never demonstrated the ability). If you can take some solace in Moro stealing from both another villain and another villain who stole from that other villain, I guess...

This particular bit was less a case of misunderstanding your casual reference to where the ability comes from, and more me seizing on a case-in-point of how easy it is for people to say stuff like this as though it's evidence of a derivative connection. For you, it may be a mere infelicity of wording, but in this very topic there have been people who have forcefully tried to say this is a way in which Moro is a Cell rip-off, from this point. Which is a misidentification - they both take the inspiration from elsewhere, independently (not coincidentally, but also not clearly with reference to each other). Which also serves as a convenient little example of my overall argument, which is why I wanted to point at it.

Regardless of faulty Dragon Ball memory or Moro being/not being a pastiche of all Dragon Ball villains, can we not all agree that once Moro absorbed 7-3, that's all his power was about?

I don't disagree, exactly - but I think looking at, and talking about, why that decision was probably made (to push a new variant of the overarching arc theme) and to what extent that may have been successful in achieving its aim (even if one grants, as you say, that it also had negative impact on the momentum of the story) is the more interesting thing, personally.

[The Undying]

One doesn't need to posit connection to a specific antecedent character to explain broadly similar features.

Sure, but that's why I'm focusing on the broader presentation of the form. To rephrase, you can pick apart each feature I mentioned separately - I don't necessarily agree with all of your bulletpoints outlined there, but you can certainly do so - and you can moreover do it with confirmed sources of inspiration if you're willing to be reductive enough in distilling it. But you can alternatively sum them into a composite and get a picture that looks an awful lot like Cell, arguably moreso than other antagonists. The similarities may not amount to much on their own, but it adds up in a way that makes the comparison itself feel warranted and near immediately noticeable.

Just to briefly respond to your point about the panel composition, I can't recall a single other villain/form 'reveal' as similar to 7-3 Moro's appearance as Perfect Cell's. The vertical rock on the side, overall texturing and character design bleeding over the edge of the panel (again, in tandem) is too on-the-nose for me. Bootenks comes the closest, but it's not quite the same. It's something I think you'd have to chalk up to coincidence to dispute, and personally, I just don't buy it. You're welcome to correct me if there's another panel you think I might be overlooking.

Ultimately, I'll echo what LoganForkHands said: I don't know if the discussion as a whole matters that much because a lot of us (myself included, I'll happily admit) are speculating about Toyotaro's intentions without him actually confirming anything. As obvious as it might seem to me and several others, I'd have to be careful to avoid parading it as some fact. All I can say is if the subject of 7-3 Moro ever comes up in an interview broaching his conception, I'm willing to bet real currency that he's going to mention Cell.

Could make for an amusing wager. Feel free to quote me with a sassy gif if I turn out to be wrong.

[LoganForkHands73]

I think it's actually more of a stretch to claim all of those similarities in tandem, especially given their specificity, are purely coincidental.

However, I'm not claiming coincidence - I'm claiming that much of what is perceived to be direct derivation is in fact a pretty basic configuration of well-worn 'Dragon Ballish' elements that the franchise regularly uses as its 'stock-in-trade'. One doesn't need to posit connection to a specific antecedent character to explain broadly similar features.

Which is also why all the specific features you mention also have a number of otherwise unrelated (or not obviously related) exponents:

The main "Dragon Ballish" element that lead to the comparisons between Moro and Cell was the "main antagonist absorbs/devours (I don't know why you're arguing semantics on that point either, they both lead to the same end in this fantastical instance -- I don't become a sandwich after eating one) a mechanical being, becomes more humanoid and gains a substantial power boost" narrative beat, a beat that Cell really did innovate for Dragon Ball. No other antagonist did that prior to Cell. Hence, it's perfectly valid to say, "Hmm, that's a bit like Cell, innit?"

Getting to the antagonist power-copying department, it's not as pervasive throughout Dragon Ball (prior to Cell's introduction) as you're making it out to be. Tenshinhan copied the Kamehameha once from pure observation to demonstrate his natural talent as a martial artist, and never showed it again. After that, the protagonists demonstrate a similar aptitude for mimicking the techniques of others through the same method, but as far as I recall no other villain does it again until Cell. Cell's mimicry was encoded into his very genetic programming. Moro has all of Seven-Three's stolen moves "programmed" into him after absorbing the artificial convict. With the way it's presented as a downloadable program rather than a learned skill from observation, I'd argue it very much is Cell's ass being ridden here.

Like Undying said, the marriage of all these elements feels like too much to be a quirk of convergent evolution, as you seem to be getting at, especially considering Toyotaro's own love for the source material. It's not like Toyotaro doesn't know that Toriyama also created a pure evil villain who absorbs an android to transform, has everyone else's moves, etc. so I find it hard to believe that they ended up at this incredibly mirrorable point with the two characters simply by "following the tropes".

The question of whether or not it was intentional derivation (and I severely doubt it wasn't, seeing as Toyble is a bigger Dragon Ball nerd than most people here and the arc is full of homages) shouldn't really matter that much since we can't know for certain Toyotaro's, or any artist's intentions anyway. We can only interpret what's presented to us.

Sure, but that's kind of the issue I've been driving at, isn't it? The fandom is predisposed to make this specific set of interpretations, irrespective of how deliberately constructed the similarity is. And I think they've mostly been fishing up a red herring, is all.

Your second sentence illustrates what I was getting at. The fandom makes this set of interpretations because there is evidence for it in this case, and there is no way of definitively telling the 'deliberation' in the way the similarities are constructed one way or the other. 'Death of the Author', and all that. If Toyotaro came out with an interview saying outright that he was partly inspired by Cell (and by extension Piccolo, Freeza, Majin Buu, etc.) with the way Moro was developed over the course of the arc, would you change your mind?

I think I'll throw in the towel here too, I've said my piece as you have yours, it's been a decent discussion.

[SupremeKai25]

I was thinking, we constantly see that Moro is a pure evil monster who wants to destroy everything, but what IS Moro exactly? I mean, he's obviously not a God, and if he were some kind of demon or programmed monster like Buu and Cell we would know, so is he really just a mortal? If so, why would the Gods create a mortal species that can literally devour all life in existence... it seems like an awful idea (then again, most Gods are clearly dumb). Or did the ability to devour worlds come later, from another source? Or was Moro perhaps good once?

Again, why is it that the arc is almost over and we STILL HAVE NO IDEA WHO THE MAIN VILLAIN IS.

[GodVegetto91]

I was thinking, we constantly see that Moro is a pure evil monster who wants to destroy everything, but what IS Moro exactly? I mean, he's obviously not a God, and if he were some kind of demon or programmed monster like Buu and Cell we would know, so is he really just a mortal? If so, why would the Gods create a mortal species that can literally devour all life in existence... it seems like an awful idea (then again, most Gods are clearly dumb). Or did the ability to devour worlds come later, from another source? Or was Moro perhaps good once?

Again, why is it that the arc is almost over and we STILL HAVE NO IDEA WHO THE MAIN VILLAIN IS.

There is no in-universe explanation for this. Only an out-of-universe one:

“The writers wanted him to exist the way he turned out to be, so they created him.”

[Mister_Popo]

I was thinking, we constantly see that Moro is a pure evil monster who wants to destroy everything, but what IS Moro exactly? I mean, he's obviously not a God, and if he were some kind of demon or programmed monster like Buu and Cell we would know, so is he really just a mortal? If so, why would the Gods create a mortal species that can literally devour all life in existence... it seems like an awful idea (then again, most Gods are clearly dumb). Or did the ability to devour worlds come later, from another source? Or was Moro perhaps good once?

Again, why is it that the arc is almost over and we STILL HAVE NO IDEA WHO THE MAIN VILLAIN IS.

That's the part that should somehow be extended in the animated adaptation.
This could easily be integrated by means of an extended retrospect to the past when Moro first plagued Universe 7, untill his defeat by Grand Supreme Kai.
Even if adapted in movie format, an extended prologue can easily be integrated in order to give more meaning to the character.

[MCDaveG]

Am I the only one who actually liked the goat design of Moro the most?
I thought that it was original and looked nice, more like when Piccolo Daimao was thrown in the mix during the original run, being a really unique take on demon back at that time.

And sure, he doesn't look like Cell (who by the way was a great design as well), just the bleak face he received after absorbing the robot, which I think was really crappy design-wise. Like someone doing DB inspired fanart for a new villain being an amalgamation of the cheapest DB designs. It's just some of the latest Toriyama/Toyotaro design look so bleak compared to the original run, as all the characters in there were greatly and uniquely designed - Piccolo, Freeza, Cell and Buu is really genious in how simple he is. Also, lot of the new alien races look just like blobs in different shapes since Episode of Bardock.

Did Toriyama made full circle and went back to Dragon Quest's Slime?

[Dragon Wukong]

It's actually much more likely that Moro's similarities with Sealas are deliberate, rather than any similarities with Cell. It would make much more sense too, given that Sealas is the first time Toyotaro was tasked with making a main villain for a Dragon Ball game. The similarities become much more evident, especially when one considers how Ahms and Seven-Three effectively serve the same function, with their ability to copy the powers of opponents, and then get absorbed by the main antagonist for their power.

At that point, one might argue that Sealas is somehow derivative of Cell I guess? But even that wouldn't really hold much weight in terms of design and ability.

[Skar]

So we're definitely getting more than 16 volumes. How long will this series last? Though V-Jump series have a habit of getting sudden cancellations out of nowhere leading to rushed endings

Does anyone know what was the longest running V-Jump manga? The completed series I checked were shorter than DBS. From what I understand, it's meant for relatively shorter spin-offs compared to Weekly Jump.

[Matches Malone]

So we're definitely getting more than 16 volumes. How long will this series last? Though V-Jump series have a habit of getting sudden cancellations out of nowhere leading to rushed endings

I think DB is currently too big for that, so chances are the manga is safe for the next few years at least.

[Koitsukai]

I was thinking, we constantly see that Moro is a pure evil monster who wants to destroy everything, but what IS Moro exactly? I mean, he's obviously not a God, and if he were some kind of demon or programmed monster like Buu and Cell we would know, so is he really just a mortal? If so, why would the Gods create a mortal species that can literally devour all life in existence... it seems like an awful idea (then again, most Gods are clearly dumb). Or did the ability to devour worlds come later, from another source? Or was Moro perhaps good once?

Again, why is it that the arc is almost over and we STILL HAVE NO IDEA WHO THE MAIN VILLAIN IS.

Like others have said, maybe the anime will fill in the blanks (hopefully, following Toriyama's instructions and not pulling stuff out of their asses). Maybe we'll get an answer in the epilogue of the arc, although I highly doubt that.

About his diet, I'm not so sure the kaioshin take part in creating that kind of life, for instance, only Whis can give life to people, while Shin he never atempted to revive Goku (apparently, only by giving their own lives they can bring somebody back). As of now, I believe they create worlds and the conditions for life to occur, what happens then with those lifeforms is out of their hands.
My guess is Moro is the result of ningen evolution and not a direct creation of, say Rou Kaio Shin.

[Mister_Popo]

I was thinking, we constantly see that Moro is a pure evil monster who wants to destroy everything, but what IS Moro exactly? I mean, he's obviously not a God, and if he were some kind of demon or programmed monster like Buu and Cell we would know, so is he really just a mortal? If so, why would the Gods create a mortal species that can literally devour all life in existence... it seems like an awful idea (then again, most Gods are clearly dumb). Or did the ability to devour worlds come later, from another source? Or was Moro perhaps good once?

Again, why is it that the arc is almost over and we STILL HAVE NO IDEA WHO THE MAIN VILLAIN IS.

Like others have said, maybe the anime will fill in the blanks (hopefully, following Toriyama's instructions and not pulling stuff out of their asses). Maybe we'll get an answer in the epilogue of the arc, although I highly doubt that.

Don't think we're getting a full Moro origin story, with thorough explaination what he exactly is and how he became to be.
In best case something involving the past that sets him up as a real threat for Universe 7 or something more about his motives.

[SupremeKai25]

I'd actually like something about his origins, not just his motivations.

It's so weird. Toriyama devoted an entire backstory to explain how Cell or Zamasu got the powers they have in the current storyline, so why exactly can Moro consume life? Where does the ability to eat planets come from? What's the source of that magic? NO OTHER CHARACTER has it, so very clearly it must be something he developed, or knowledge only he found... Imagine if Toriyama never revealed Cell's origins, his powers would be completely unexplained. Same thing here.

I'll say one thing though: If Toei is just going to give Moro a dumb 2-minutes long flashback in the middle of a fight (like they did with a certain annoying grey alien), then they shouldn't even bother.

Consider this just a suggestion to make this dumb goat a bit less forgettable.

[Koitsukai]

I was thinking, we constantly see that Moro is a pure evil monster who wants to destroy everything, but what IS Moro exactly? I mean, he's obviously not a God, and if he were some kind of demon or programmed monster like Buu and Cell we would know, so is he really just a mortal? If so, why would the Gods create a mortal species that can literally devour all life in existence... it seems like an awful idea (then again, most Gods are clearly dumb). Or did the ability to devour worlds come later, from another source? Or was Moro perhaps good once?

Again, why is it that the arc is almost over and we STILL HAVE NO IDEA WHO THE MAIN VILLAIN IS.

Like others have said, maybe the anime will fill in the blanks (hopefully, following Toriyama's instructions and not pulling stuff out of their asses). Maybe we'll get an answer in the epilogue of the arc, although I highly doubt that.

Don't think we're getting a full Moro origin story, with thorough explaination what he exactly is and how he became to be.
In best case something involving the past that sets him up as a real threat for Universe 7 or something more about his motives.

At best, I think we can get something like Shin showing up, or perhaps the DKOS because Shin didn't exist back then, saying like wow you took out Moro, he was such and such a creature, the offspring of a wizard(Bibidi-like) and a demon (makaioshin perhaps). IIRC, Bibidi was part of a bigger clan or wizards, or maybe I'm thinking of Hoi, from the Hirudegan movie.

There are really interesting backstories Moro could've gotten, based on stuff the show has already established.

[Magnificent Ponta]

SethTheProgrammer put an interesting spin on all this for me. He mentions that Moro represents all of Goku's previous failures/mistakes which is why he derives so many characteristics from other villains

Blasted past this earlier, but wanted to pay this post its dues, as it's an interesting idea - however, I agree with you that this would be very subtext if one were to uphold it.

I think that to find a link between Moro and Goku's mistakes convincingly in the story, we'd expect to see at least something in their interactions that points at a deeper significance to the way the pair are connected. I'm re-reading the arc now, so may change my mind as I get further, but I don't feel the two are really depicted interrelating with each other in a very meaningful way generally.

Goku starts off by telling Moro that he hears he's done bad things and should go back to prison, Moro ignores him in favour of his next meal, and...for me, they stay pretty much on that level with each other, as characters. Goku will later be led by, and try to introduce the things that matter to him, but ultimately it's in service of saying the same basic thing, which Moro...again ignores. And that's basically it.

So while it's a nice idea, I think you're right that this probably isn't a thing that's 'happening' between the two.

Am I the only one who actually liked the goat design of Moro the most?

I do - specifically, uncloaked old goat Moro, as he was depicted at the end of Chapter 44. I enjoy that depiction the most.

[Mister_Popo]

I'd actually like something about his origins, not just his motivations.

It's so weird. Toriyama devoted an entire backstory to explain how Cell or Zamasu got the powers they have in the current storyline, so why exactly can Moro consume life? Where does the ability to eat planets come from? What's the source of that magic? NO OTHER CHARACTER has it, so very clearly it must be something he developed, or knowledge only he found... Imagine if Toriyama never revealed Cell's origins, his powers would be completely unexplained. Same thing here.

I'll say one thing though: If Toei is just going to give Moro a dumb 2-minutes long flashback in the middle of a fight (like they did with a certain annoying grey alien), then they shouldn't even bother.

Consider this just a suggestion to make this dumb goat a bit less forgettable.

I agree it's an intresting concept to give Moro a more profound origin story, that's connected to the already established lore.

But maybe you are expecting too much. I somehow doubt TOEI will delve that deep.
With the Zamasu arc Toriyama basically wrote his "fall to the dark side" in the basic plotline.
Now, it clearly isn't included.
With Moro, they will have to come from far.

TOEI could and should give us something more and slightly different, but i'm afraid the basic plotoutline for the arc is a little too thin for a more thorough character driven story like with Zamasu.

They may of course always surprise us ...

[SupremeKai25]

I'd actually like something about his origins, not just his motivations.

It's so weird. Toriyama devoted an entire backstory to explain how Cell or Zamasu got the powers they have in the current storyline, so why exactly can Moro consume life? Where does the ability to eat planets come from? What's the source of that magic? NO OTHER CHARACTER has it, so very clearly it must be something he developed, or knowledge only he found... Imagine if Toriyama never revealed Cell's origins, his powers would be completely unexplained. Same thing here.

I'll say one thing though: If Toei is just going to give Moro a dumb 2-minutes long flashback in the middle of a fight (like they did with a certain annoying grey alien), then they shouldn't even bother.

Consider this just a suggestion to make this dumb goat a bit less forgettable.

I agree it's an intresting concept to give Moro a more profound origin story, that's connected to the already established lore.

But maybe you are expecting too much. I somehow doubt TOEI will delve that deep.
With the Zamasu arc Toriyama basically wrote his "fall to the dark side" in the basic plotline.
Now, it clearly isn't included.
With Moro, they will have to come from far.

TOEI could and should give us something more and slightly different, but i'm afraid the basic plotoutline for the arc is a little too thin for a more thorough character driven story like with Zamasu.

They can of course always surprise us ...

Oh I'm not saying they should write Moro as a morally grey villain, it's way too late for that. But they should at least explain the origins of his powers.

Zamasu has Goku's power because he stole his body, and has immortality because he made a wish to the Super Dragon Balls.
Majin Buu has immense destructive power because he's an ancient monster who cyclically destroys galaxies then goes into hibernation.
Cell has the powers of all Z Fighters because he's an android created from their combined DNA.
Frieza is feared as the Emperor of the universe because he's a prodigy/mutant from an already strong species.
Vegeta is a very powerful Saiyan because he's the prince of a warrior race, he's elite.
And so on...

It's a complaint I had about Jiren too. How exactly did he get so powrful? Why is it that this weak little orphan is even stronger than the Gods of Destruction?

Only the most ambitious villains should have their motivations explained, but every villain should have their POWER explained, don't you think? And so I'm left wondering... why can Moro consume life, exactly? Where does his dark magic come from? Is he like a sorcerer from the Demon Realm or...? He looks like the Devil, so is this what Toriyama was going for? Is he like an important figure from the Demon Realm/Hell of the DBverse?

[Mister_Popo]

I'd actually like something about his origins, not just his motivations.

It's so weird. Toriyama devoted an entire backstory to explain how Cell or Zamasu got the powers they have in the current storyline, so why exactly can Moro consume life? Where does the ability to eat planets come from? What's the source of that magic? NO OTHER CHARACTER has it, so very clearly it must be something he developed, or knowledge only he found... Imagine if Toriyama never revealed Cell's origins, his powers would be completely unexplained. Same thing here.

I'll say one thing though: If Toei is just going to give Moro a dumb 2-minutes long flashback in the middle of a fight (like they did with a certain annoying grey alien), then they shouldn't even bother.

Consider this just a suggestion to make this dumb goat a bit less forgettable.

I agree it's an intresting concept to give Moro a more profound origin story, that's connected to the already established lore.

But maybe you are expecting too much. I somehow doubt TOEI will delve that deep.
With the Zamasu arc Toriyama basically wrote his "fall to the dark side" in the basic plotline.
Now, it clearly isn't included.
With Moro, they will have to come from far.

TOEI could and should give us something more and slightly different, but i'm afraid the basic plotoutline for the arc is a little too thin for a more thorough character driven story like with Zamasu.

They can of course always surprise us ...

Oh I'm not saying they should write Moro as a morally grey villain, it's way too late for that. But they should at least explain the origins of his powers.

Zamasu has Goku's power because he stole his body, and has immortality because he made a wish to the Super Dragon Balls.
Majin Buu has immense destructive power because he's an ancient monster who cyclically destroys galaxies then goes into hibernation.
Cell has the powers of all Z Fighters because he's an android created from their combined DNA.
Frieza is feared as the Emperor of the universe because he's a prodigy/mutant from an already strong species.
Vegeta is a very powerful Saiyan because he's the prince of a warrior race, he's elite.
And so on...

It's a complaint I had about Jiren too. How exactly did he get so powrful? Why is it that this weak little orphan is even stronger than the Gods of Destruction?

Only the most ambitious villains should have their motivations explained, but every villain should have their POWER explained, don't you think? And so I'm left wondering... why can Moro consume life, exactly? Where does his dark magic come from? Is he like a sorcerer from the Demon Realm or...?

Yes, i agree some form of explaination could at least be given how he got the powers and magic, i don't entirely disagree with that.
I'm only saying there are no guarantees.

Why?
I don't think the basic plot suggests anything about it, because otherwise it probably would have been in the manga as well.
The 'weak backstory' of Jiren fe however was included in the story by Toriyama.
TOEI didn't delve that much deeper than what Toriyama had suggested.

What is Beerus exact backstory or Hits? How did they became so powerful?
These are basically the big antagonists of the BOG and U6 arcs respectively.
We know Beerus is a God of Destruction, and they tend to become very powerful, but for such a lazy cat he seems to be one of the most feared Gods and probably even the strongest God.
We know Hit has been an assassin for a long time and born a 1000 years ago, but how did he get that Time-skip technique, that pushed Goku into Blue Kaiokien times ten?
How can this be?
We have no exact explaination yet for that either.

[SupremeKai25]

Yes, i agree some form of explaination could at least be given how he got the powers and magic, i don't entirely disagree with that.
I'm only saying there are no guarantees.

Why?
I don't think the basic plot suggests anything about it, because otherwise it probably would have been in the manga as well.
The 'weak backstory' of Jiren fe however was included in the story by Toriyama.

What is Beerus exact backstory or Hits? How did they became so powerful?
These are basically the big antagonists of the BOG and U6 arcs respectively.
We know Beerus is a God of Destruction, and they tend to become very powerful, but for such a lazy cat he seems to be one of the most feared Gods and probably even the strongest God.
We know Hit has been an assassin for a long time and born a 1000 years ago, but how did he get that Time-skip technique, that pushed Goku into Blue Kaiokien times ten?
How can this be?
We have no exact explaination yet for that either.

Right, but keep in mind that Beerus and Hit are still relevant in the storyline, they aren't dead, so there might be some reveals in the future. Meanwhile Moro's story is over, he was a one-time villain like Cell and (I assume, you never know) Zamasu. He's dead, his arc is over, what's left to reveal now?

Also, I haven't read the manga of the ToP arc, but I doubt the backstory for Jiren there was as weak as in the anime. It was literally a generic 2 minutes flashback crammed into the Jiren vs. Android 17 fight. Yikes.

At least, I hope it's not as bad, but you never know with Toyotaro.

[Thani]

Yes, i agree some form of explaination could at least be given how he got the powers and magic, i don't entirely disagree with that.
I'm only saying there are no guarantees.

Why?
I don't think the basic plot suggests anything about it, because otherwise it probably would have been in the manga as well.
The 'weak backstory' of Jiren fe however was included in the story by Toriyama.

What is Beerus exact backstory or Hits? How did they became so powerful?
These are basically the big antagonists of the BOG and U6 arcs respectively.
We know Beerus is a God of Destruction, and they tend to become very powerful, but for such a lazy cat he seems to be one of the most feared Gods and probably even the strongest God.
We know Hit has been an assassin for a long time and born a 1000 years ago, but how did he get that Time-skip technique, that pushed Goku into Blue Kaiokien times ten?
How can this be?
We have no exact explaination yet for that either.

Right, but keep in mind that Beerus and Hit are still relevant in the storyline, they aren't dead, so there might be some reveals in the future. Meanwhile Moro's story is over, he was a one-time villain like Cell and (I assume, you never know) Zamasu. He's dead, his arc is over, what's left to reveal now?

Also, I haven't read the manga of the ToP arc, but I doubt the backstory for Jiren there was as weak as in the anime. It was literally a generic 2 minutes flashback crammed into the Jiren vs. Android 17 fight. Yikes.

At least, I hope it's not as bad, but you never know with Toyotaro.

Oh, I can answer you that. Jiren's a superhero from U11, that's it. His master was killed by a demon and was friends with Belmod, and that's about it.

Jiren just trained really hard for his strength in order to obtain his master's approval (the one thing he never got before Master Gicchin died). The irony is that Jiren's master only wanted him to learn teamwork. Also, all other pride troopers refers to Gicchin as "Master" as well, which implies they all trained with him.