"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by GalaxyBusterBuu » Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:38 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:36 pm
ZodiacBeast wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:27 pm One of the Heeters is going to merge with Seven-Three. Or at least absorb his data. Using the Handy-Dandy Cereal Balls™.

I can feel it.
My money is on Gas. His strength has been alluded to throughout the story so far.
Lmao. 7-3 just exists to be people's merger tool at this point. Best thing for him would be to be killed of by the end of the arc because the information he has is incredibly dangerous in people's hands and he's seen as a tool for people to merge/use data for.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Krillin1994 » Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:53 pm

TKA wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:35 pm
Thani wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:28 pm
Not true, in the ToP Beerus specifically complained that "that jerk Goku pulled off Ultra Instinct before me?!"

Goku has a better command of UI than Beerus, the difference is that Goku had to transform for it.
Context is important here. Goku has a better ultra instinct than Beerus when he transforms. Whis tells Goku that what he's doing is Ultra Instinct, but it's a poor application of it because of the stamina drain. He's now training Goku to do what Beerus can do. Beerus has a better grasp on it than Goku.
GodVegetto91 wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:09 pm Vegeta actually doesn’t like challenges..

https://m.imgur.com/a/DcXD1hg
Good post.

So many people fundamentally misunderstand Vegeta by lumping him with Goku. Vegeta doesn't like challenges, and doesn't fight and train to better himself. Vegeta just wants to be the best, and that's why Goku always outdoes him. As soon as Vegeta gets to the top, he stops getting better because he doesn't look for challenge.
Except Vegeta in this chapter says that they ‘train each day so obviously they’re always gonna be improving’ I don’t think Vegeta stops training even if he knows he’s better. He only really neglects training for important family things now, I.e bulma’s pregnancy.

I think if Vegeta were just concerned solely about being the best he wouldn’t have had such visible joy at destroying a pebble with destruction. That was the joy of someone bettering oneself taking his first step on his new journey. Old Vegeta would’ve been frustrated that was all he could blow up.

Vegeta surpassed Goku when he first started training with Whis for those months inbetween RoF. He didn’t stop the moment he thought he was ahead. Heck when Goku started to catch up he didn’t wait to be surpassed he started training at night whilst goku slept.

I think that just because he doesn’t revel in fighting strong warriors who threaten his position/ego doesn’t mean he’s not about bettering himself these days. I think maybe it’s a gradual change in philosophy he’s had since engaging in training with Goku more. He’s definitely changed in Super more so.

Even in Z though he still had signs of self bettering. He still trained once he got over his self pity post cell when Goku wasn’t a goalpost. Arguably he had Gohan, but he surpassed him and still kept training even though he was comfortably the best on earth at that time.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:04 pm

Krillin1994 wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:53 pm Except Vegeta in this chapter says that they ‘train each day so obviously they’re always gonna be improving’ I don’t think Vegeta stops training even if he knows he’s better. He only really neglects training for important family things now, I.e bulma’s pregnancy.

I think if Vegeta were just concerned solely about being the best he wouldn’t have had such visible joy at destroying a pebble with destruction. That was the joy of someone bettering oneself taking his first step on his new journey. Old Vegeta would’ve been frustrated that was all he could blow up.
You fundamentally misunderstand the character.

When Vegeta first enters the story, it's shown to us that he's at his pinnacle. So much so that he and Cui were rivals, despite Cui not really doing much training to better himself. Vegeta's power was static because he was the strongest saiyan. He only started to grow again after he failed on Earth, and was actively up against people stronger than him on Namek.

During the Android arc, Vegeta attains Super Saiyan. When Goku got Super Saiyan, he went to Yardrat to train and better himself. When Vegeta got Super Saiyan, he came back to beat up Androids and lord his power over everyone. And then 18 beats him and he realizes he needs to get stronger.

Buu Arc. He's the strongest on Earth while Goku is dead. He still trains, but his power plateaus, and he outright admits it, which is why he lets Babidi rekindle the evil in his heart.

This is a huge part of Vegeta's character, and what makes him different from Goku. It's also what makes him compelling. Vegeta becomes complacent the second he's the strongest. He doesn't care about bettering himself by going up against challengers like Goku does; he just wants to know that he is the strongest. Vegeta would be fine being the big fish in a small pond. This is the major cause of Vegeta's self-sabotage and self-anguish in the original manga, my man.

When someone stronger than Vegeta shows up, he has a crisis. It breaks him. Whether that's Final Form Frieza, Trunks, Perfect Cell or Goku during his fight with Yakon, it's one of the most consistent parts of his character. Goku gets ecstatic when someone stronger shows up because it means he has someone new to test himself against.

Now as for your example from this chapter... it's kinda obvious, isn't it? Vegeta is training because Goku showed himself to be stronger when he beat Moro. So now Vegeta has a gap he needs to close.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:15 pm

TKA wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:35 pm Good post.

So many people fundamentally misunderstand Vegeta by lumping him with Goku. Vegeta doesn't like challenges, and doesn't fight and train to better himself. Vegeta just wants to be the best, and that's why Goku always outdoes him. As soon as Vegeta gets to the top, he stops getting better because he doesn't look for challenge.
Yes Vegeta just wants to be the strongest more so than wanting to just fight strong opponents like Goku. But Vegeta is always growing stronger in his pursuit to be the best. He has not ever stagnated in Super quite the opposite in the fact.

Vegeta has never actually been at the top really for very long where he ever just stopped training in Super. The only time he stops training specifically in Super is because of Bra’s birth not because he thinks he has no room to grow.

And even when Goku is dead in Z it is shown that Vegeta has not given up training despite briefly saying he was going to give up fighting all together at the end of the Cell arc.

I mean I do think if Vegeta ever truly surpassed Goku & was at the top he would feel empty and not know what to do with himself. When it comes down to it Vegeta may wish to be the best but the rivalry with Goku gives him an ongoing goal. It has lead to negative things in the past when he got too obsessed but overall I think having a rival has mainly lead to a positive journey for Vegeta.

Now as for your example from this chapter... it's kinda obvious, isn't it? Vegeta is training because Goku showed himself to be stronger when he beat Moro. So now Vegeta has a gap he needs to close.
But he never stops training in Super (except for briefly as I said when Bra is going to be born) even when Goku hasn’t surpassed him.

He is not perfect but he is also not the same character he is in Z either and most of your examples are from Z.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:26 pm

Kinokima wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:15 pm
Yes Vegeta just wants to be the strongest more so than wanting to just fight strong opponents like Goku. But Vegeta is always growing stronger in his pursuit to be the best. He has not ever stagnated in Super quite the opposite in the fact.
Yes, it's common sense that if you're not the best, the only way to become the best is to get stronger. Every time you see Vegeta pushing himself, it's when he's not the best.
Kinokima wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:15 pmI mean I do think if Vegeta ever truly surpassed Goku & was at the top he would feel empty and not know what to do with himself.
You'd be wrong. We've seen Vegeta surpass Goku and every time he did he was thinking "Wow, I'm fucking awesome!"

On Namek, after he eats the Senzu, he becomes so powerful that he could beat Jeice without sweating it. So powerful that he could match up with Frieza in his first form. If we accept this as Vegeta being stronger than Goku as he was when he first arrived, then Vegeta didn't feel empty at all.

He was for sure stronger than Goku when he arrived to fight and kill Android 19. Nothing about that encounter showed Vegeta being empty or sad.

When he went to fight Semi-Perfect Cell, he was the strongest on Earth. Not empty.

After he proved he was a match for Goku during their fight in the Buu Arc... well that one is inconclusive because he was disappointed that Majin Buu's awakening ruined their fight.

What I think is going on here is that there have been so many pale imitations of Vegeta in so many modern anime that people conflate them with the original Vegeta. His existence isn't built around Goku. If Vegeta during those times didn't get depressed or a feeling of emptiness about surpassing Goku, the current Vegeta sure as shit won't. The current Vegeta is a healthier person mentally than the Vegeta pre-Pure Buu fight. His final development was letting go of his classism, so surpassing Goku is even less of a mental shackle on him now.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:42 pm

TKA wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:26 pm
Kinokima wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:15 pm
Yes Vegeta just wants to be the strongest more so than wanting to just fight strong opponents like Goku. But Vegeta is always growing stronger in his pursuit to be the best. He has not ever stagnated in Super quite the opposite in the fact.
Yes, it's common sense that if you're not the best, the only way to become the best is to get stronger. Every time you see Vegeta pushing himself, it's when he's not the best.
Kinokima wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:15 pmI mean I do think if Vegeta ever truly surpassed Goku & was at the top he would feel empty and not know what to do with himself.
You'd be wrong. We've seen Vegeta surpass Goku and every time he did he was thinking "Wow, I'm fucking awesome!"

On Namek, after he eats the Senzu, he becomes so powerful that he could beat Jeice without sweating it. So powerful that he could match up with Frieza in his first form. If we accept this as Vegeta being stronger than Goku as he was when he first arrived, then Vegeta didn't feel empty at all.

He was for sure stronger than Goku when he arrived to fight and kill Android 19. Nothing about that encounter showed Vegeta being empty or sad.

When he went to fight Semi-Perfect Cell, he was the strongest on Earth. Not empty.

After he proved he was a match for Goku during their fight in the Buu Arc... well that one is inconclusive because he was disappointed that Majin Buu's awakening ruined their fight.

What I think is going on here is that there have been so many pale imitations of Vegeta in so many modern anime that people conflate them with the original Vegeta. His existence isn't built around Goku. If Vegeta during those times didn't get depressed or a feeling of emptiness about surpassing Goku, the current Vegeta sure as shit won't. The current Vegeta is a healthier person mentally than the Vegeta pre-Pure Buu fight. His final development was letting go of his classism, so surpassing Goku is even less of a mental shackle on him now.


Again all your examples continue to be from DBZ NOT Super where Vegeta surpasses Goku for the briefest of moments let’s the power rise to his head just to immediately gets beat up. If Vegeta HAD won those fights, defeated Goku well his development would be non-existent.

Vegeta has never truly surpassed Goku and never will because then his character journey will be over. He might feel pleasure at truly being at the top briefly but then most likely he would feel lost & empty without an ongoing goal.

Also while I am not saying Vegeta has lost all his arrogance (that will ALWAYS be a flaw of his character) he is also not the same character he was in Z. And there is nothing to show that Vegeta ONLY trains in Super when Goku has surpassed him once again.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Krillin1994 » Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:48 pm

I think saying that using Vegeta attitude and character from his villainous days as your argument isn’t the most effective.

Obviously people’s big draw to Vegeta is his desire to surpass Goku, but super has seen the most time Goku and Vegeta spent together. Is it that unreasonable to suggest that some of Goku’s attitude towards improvement can rub off on him.

Goku always wants to better himself and he fights to see how much he’s improved.

Vegeta primarily fights to show that he is stronger than x, hence his ire about Granolah. But really that is a lot of bravado. We’ve seen his mentality at tournament of power. We see what he thinks about when on the ropes in the tournament of power. His thoughts being on Bulma, his promise to cabba and protecting the U6 Saiyans. Those are just as big a reason why he feels he needs to be strong now too.

Heck in Broly he’s annoyed at Goku for having Frieza alive due to threat he may pose. His anger isn’t that frieza is strong it’s the danger to loved ones. Vegeta’s priorities are clearly different.

Do you honestly think that this current Vegeta would stop training if he become stronger than Goku?

Vegeta before super never had a martial artists mentality, and whilst he doesn’t fully. Having formal mentors in Whis and Beerus is changing him.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:06 pm

Elec has been pretty smart so far, but I can't help but feel his confidence in Gas is a huge miscalculation. Elec thinks Gas may be stronger than Freeza, but does he understand how much stronger Freeza has gotten? It would be difficult for him to know unless Freeza's army dispersed a Battle Power or something. Did he even know how strong Freeza was to begin with? Hell, Vegeta thought he was Super Saiyan level and stronger than Freeza on Namek, but he was damn wrong. The immensity of Freeza's battle power was unfathomable before we got into the godly realm, so I have my doubts about Gas. Toronbo would just make Granolla stronger than Gas if that were the case, but we'll see. That doesn't mean Gas still can't rise up and become the strongest later on.

Speaking of other characters that still might have their moment of "rising up as the strongest in the universe"...still no Freeza. It could be funny if he missed this whole dramatic event that was happening because of him. On the other hand, Freeza trained once, so maybe he'll train again. Maybe he'll get a new form, or maybe he'll do something more surprising and improve his base state like Goku. Based on his final lines from Broly, it seems that he's counting on Broly to get his revenge on Goku & co., so there's a lot of ways that could unfold.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by jd55513 » Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:10 pm

The chapter is great. My theory about the Heaters and 73 may come into fruition, although gas may be another wild card.

About the 10 questions.
I think I know most of them!

1. Are their more Dragon Balls?
2. Is their a device that can find them?
3. Tell us about Goku and Vegeta
4. Where is Frieza?
5. Can we become the strongest in the Universe?
6. How can we stop Granolah if the Saiyans fail?
7. Can you tell us about 0G-73 ?
8. Stuff about the food


I can't think of the other ones
Whatcha think?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ZodiacBeast » Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:18 pm

What if Seven-Three breaks free from the Heeters instead of (possibly) being used and he himself becomes "the strongest"?

I like Seven-Three, but he's not the most exciting plot device character.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:33 pm

Miracles wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:11 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:06 pm Really not a fan of the sexual harassment. Jesus Christ, Shueisha.
I hope this a joke. :lol:
It's not. Why would it be? I'm not a fan of forcing a woman to kiss a guy and not using it as a moment to rebuke this sort of bullshit. I think it's inappropriate material given the context of this being a child-aimed comic.

I otherwise liked the chapter but that doesn't mean I'm going to just let that kind of shit pass.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:36 pm

batistabus wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:06 pm Elec has been pretty smart so far, but I can't help but feel his confidence in Gas is a huge miscalculation. Elec thinks Gas may be stronger than Freeza, but does he understand how much stronger Freeza has gotten? It would be difficult for him to know unless Freeza's army dispersed a Battle Power or something. Did he even know how strong Freeza was to begin with? Hell, Vegeta thought he was Super Saiyan level and stronger than Freeza on Namek, but he was damn wrong. The immensity of Freeza's battle power was unfathomable before we got into the godly realm, so I have my doubts about Gas. Toronbo would just make Granolla stronger than Gas if that were the case, but we'll see. That doesn't mean Gas still can't rise up and become the strongest later on.

Speaking of other characters that still might have their moment of "rising up as the strongest in the universe"...still no Freeza. It could be funny if he missed this whole dramatic event that was happening because of him. On the other hand, Freeza trained once, so maybe he'll train again. Maybe he'll get a new form, or maybe he'll do something more surprising and improve his base state like Goku. Based on his final lines from Broly, it seems that he's counting on Broly to get his revenge on Goku & co., so there's a lot of ways that could unfold.
I could be totally off base but I almost felt Elec was manipulating his brother in that scene. I am not sure for what purpose yet though.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:39 pm

Kinokima wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:36 pm I could be totally off base but I almost felt Elec was manipulating his brother in that scene. I am not sure for what purpose yet though.
I just re-read the scene and was about to post this. Definitely possible.
jd55513 wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:10 pm Whatcha think?
EDIT: Posting my take here instead: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=46211&p=1699217#p1699217
Last edited by batistabus on Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:40 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:33 pm
Miracles wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:11 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:06 pm Really not a fan of the sexual harassment. Jesus Christ, Shueisha.
I hope this a joke. :lol:
It's not. Why would it be? I'm not a fan of forcing a woman to kiss a guy and not using it as a moment to rebuke this sort of bullshit. I think it's inappropriate material given the context of this being a child-aimed comic.

I otherwise liked the chapter but that doesn't mean I'm going to just let that kind of shit pass.
If you read carefully, Zuno didn't force Maki to give a kiss. It was the offering and she didn't have to agree.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by GalaxyBusterBuu » Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:58 pm

If Freeza shows up at some point, I'm expecting some silver Freeza form to come in at the last second when confronted. They'll probably give Freeza some type of power up assuming he isn't killed off here(Lmao Freeza dying permanently in the main timeline, as if). Unless Freeza is just going to be a punching bad like he was for Broly,(which while funny, would kind of feel redundant here) he's probably going to have some form we've never seen before to save him from death.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:00 pm

Miracles wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:40 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:33 pm
Miracles wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:11 pm

I hope this a joke. :lol:
It's not. Why would it be? I'm not a fan of forcing a woman to kiss a guy and not using it as a moment to rebuke this sort of bullshit. I think it's inappropriate material given the context of this being a child-aimed comic.

I otherwise liked the chapter but that doesn't mean I'm going to just let that kind of shit pass.
If you read carefully, Zuno didn't force Maki to give a kiss. It was the offering and she didn't have to agree.
And I'm not blaming Zuno, I'm blaming the real people who wrote and published this development. They wanted to write a scene where a women was made uncomfortable and that's fine and dandy in a completely different context but here it's inappropriate.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:01 pm

Miracles wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:40 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:33 pm
Miracles wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:11 pm

I hope this a joke. :lol:
It's not. Why would it be? I'm not a fan of forcing a woman to kiss a guy and not using it as a moment to rebuke this sort of bullshit. I think it's inappropriate material given the context of this being a child-aimed comic.

I otherwise liked the chapter but that doesn't mean I'm going to just let that kind of shit pass.
If you read carefully, Zuno didn't force Maki to give a kiss. It was the offering and she didn't have to agree.
If she didn’t agree he wouldn’t give her what she wants. She isn’t physically forced to do it but it’s coercion all the same. It would be similar to a boss being like I will give you a promotion for a kiss. It’s very much a form of sexual harassment.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:17 pm

Oh yeah, I'm in 100% agreement with JulieYBM.

I get that Dragon Ball has a history of this, but coercion is coercion all the same and it's gross no matter the circumstance. Macki's acknowledgement of Zuno's harassment doesn't absolve unfortunate tropes that are continually still perpetuated in Japanese fiction.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by omaro34 » Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:57 pm

Goku can ask one of his sons to power up so he can just teleport to Earth whenever he wants, yet he was away for months training?

What else is new but showcasing how shitty of a father and husband Goku is lmao.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:05 am

omaro34 wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:57 pm Goku can ask one of his sons to power up so he can just teleport to Earth whenever he wants, yet he was away for months training?

What else is new but showcasing how shitty of a father and husband Goku is lmao.

So was Vegeta! Why purposely point out Goku was away?

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