"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[OLKv3]

I'm certainly not the biggest enthusiast of the dependency mentality when it comes to Goku for the others. Yes, he's the protagonist and it's inevitable that he'll bear the brunt of the effort but some initiative should be taken for readying themselves in this fight. All of the preceding training was a good step to take but still woefully inadequate. I mean did Moro just confirm that Goku was only using his untransformed strength during the initial waylaying against Saganbo? Talk about trivilisation if so.

Choreographically the others have expressed the reaction best. It's enjoyable and accommodates the autonomous fluidity of Ultra Instinct quite well. My grievance here is that the user should be more neutral expressively as the form isremoving the cognitive side of movement. As well, I'm not all too keen on UI being qualified as yet another form to be propped as another on Goku's already gaudy belt of transformations. Keep it as a technical ability like the Kaioken.

I offered some critique to the degeneration prior to the chapter being released regarding Moro's growing emphasis on basic raw power before as he continued growing younger. The contents of his retaliation itself were more promising than I first thought but in the end he still resorted to what has been the ongoing crux since the beginning. I wish he could have found an alternative way to counter Goku's UI. Come to think of it, his planetary consumption before was AOE. Goku's mobility shouldn't be hindering him from consuming Earth's energy supply, right?

Decent chapter overall but hardly one with subtext that I find appealing personally.

In the manga, Omen Goku was always a chatterbox. It's when he goes full UI that he just does nothing but fight and react.

[The Undying]

The last time Beerus did a decent job properly was with Present Zamasu.

Not even, though.

He destroyed Zamasu entirely out of convenience and self-preservation, and explicitly said as much himself. After that, he refused to go to the future because (in his own words) he wanted Goku and Vegeta to clean up the mess so he could sit around and enjoy Earth's delicacies. That was the extent of his involvement.

Where the anime has his motivations and personality flip-flopping for no reason, the manga and movies consistently make it clear that Beerus is a lazy asshole who would rather just look out for himself.

As it should be. That's 100% Beerus.

Super Dragon Ball Heroes is doing a better job of making Beerus act like a concerned GoD than the anime or manga have thus far.

The best thing about Toriyama's gods is that they're incapable of acting like gods. To change that would be diluting what makes them special.

"Concerned" Beerus is generic, boring, and completely out of character.

[Miracles]

The last time Beerus did a decent job properly was with Present Zamasu.

Not even, though.

He destroyed Zamasu entirely out of convenience and self-preservation, and explicitly said as much himself. After that, he refused to go to the future because (in his own words) he wanted Goku and Vegeta to clean up the mess so he could sit around and enjoy Earth's delicacies. That was the extent of his involvement.

Where the anime has his motivations and personality flip-flopping for no reason, the manga and movies consistently make it clear that Beerus is a lazy asshole who would rather just look out for himself.

As it should be. That's 100% Beerus.

Super Dragon Ball Heroes is doing a better job of making Beerus act like a concerned GoD than the anime or manga have thus far.

The best thing about Toriyama's gods is that they're incapable of acting like gods. To change that would be diluting what makes them special.

"Concerned" Beerus is generic, boring, and completely out of character.

It's always a pleasure to see someone keeping up with the story.
Beerus means has been clearly selfish from the start. The movies and manga has kept it that way.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

The last time Beerus did a decent job properly was with Present Zamasu.

Not even, though.

He destroyed Zamasu entirely out of convenience and self-preservation, and explicitly said as much himself. After that, he refused to go to the future because (in his own words) he wanted Goku and Vegeta to clean up the mess so he could sit around and enjoy Earth's delicacies. That was the extent of his involvement.

Where the anime has his motivations and personality flip-flopping for no reason, the manga and movies consistently make it clear that Beerus is a lazy asshole who would rather just look out for himself.

As it should be. That's 100% Beerus.

Super Dragon Ball Heroes is doing a better job of making Beerus act like a concerned GoD than the anime or manga have thus far.

The best thing about Toriyama's gods is that they're incapable of acting like gods. To change that would be diluting what makes them special.

"Concerned" Beerus is generic, boring, and completely out of character.

Basically. Beerus only acts when he feels like it and when it's within his self centered guidelines. He'll only act when literally pushed into the situation and even then, he'll just do the bare minimum and have Goku and Vegeta do the rest of the dirty work for him. Beerus is literally a lazy asshole, that's the entire point of his character. His laziness gives Goku and Vegeta the ability to fight strong foes even at the cost of his entire universe suffering. Just look at his past actions like letting Frieza rule majority of the universe, Buu running around, and now we have Moro being a planet eater that he doesn't care about. Lines up perfectly for his character.

Though I still don't understand why he doesn't care about Moro eating his universe, because you'd think he'd care about the lack of food he'll be able to eat or something that would fit his self centered personality. I mean, how are you supposed to get decent food when the populations who serve it are extinct and consumed?

Then again, Beerus's lack of foresight is a recurring thing for his personality as a whole so I guess we should roll with it. We fans shouldn't be surprised that Beerus is an ass because he's always been presented as such.

I wouldn't say it's out of character for him, it's just that the only time he'd be concerned would be a situation resembling the Zamasu thing, where Zamasu legit killed everyone and himself to satisfy his skewed justice across the multiverse. It would have to be a situation related to the gods with the gods for Beerus to give a damn, and even then, he'll just do the bare minimum because it's Beerus and he'll just have Goku and Vegeta do clean up for whatever he left unsolved.

Is first presented as a lazy asshole god, is always a lazy asshole god.

[Mister_Popo]

The last time Beerus did a decent job properly was with Present Zamasu.

Not even, though.

He destroyed Zamasu entirely out of convenience and self-preservation, and explicitly said as much himself. After that, he refused to go to the future because (in his own words) he wanted Goku and Vegeta to clean up the mess so he could sit around and enjoy Earth's delicacies. That was the extent of his involvement.

Where the anime has his motivations and personality flip-flopping for no reason, the manga and movies consistently make it clear that Beerus is a lazy asshole who would rather just look out for himself.

As it should be. That's 100% Beerus.

Super Dragon Ball Heroes is doing a better job of making Beerus act like a concerned GoD than the anime or manga have thus far.

The best thing about Toriyama's gods is that they're incapable of acting like gods. To change that would be diluting what makes them special.

"Concerned" Beerus is generic, boring, and completely out of character.

It's always a pleasure to see someone keeping up with the story.
Beerus means has been clearly selfish from the start. The movies and manga has kept it that way.

Yes, he is selfish.

Beerus is known to not give a fxxk. Completely true.
And if it does not concern him, he does not interfer.
It fits the charactzer.
But in this case ... doesn't Moro pose a treat to his position at all?
Moro is already stated to be above to the Gods in power.

Or ... maybe Beerus is yet again immensely stronger than we initially thought in BOG, and he blows away Moro like a leaf in the atumn winds if it TRUELY matters?

[Miracles]

Not even, though.

He destroyed Zamasu entirely out of convenience and self-preservation, and explicitly said as much himself. After that, he refused to go to the future because (in his own words) he wanted Goku and Vegeta to clean up the mess so he could sit around and enjoy Earth's delicacies. That was the extent of his involvement.

Where the anime has his motivations and personality flip-flopping for no reason, the manga and movies consistently make it clear that Beerus is a lazy asshole who would rather just look out for himself.

As it should be. That's 100% Beerus.



The best thing about Toriyama's gods is that they're incapable of acting like gods. To change that would be diluting what makes them special.

"Concerned" Beerus is generic, boring, and completely out of character.

It's always a pleasure to see someone keeping up with the story.
Beerus means has been clearly selfish from the start. The movies and manga has kept it that way.

Yes, he is selfish.

Beerus is known to not give a fxxk. Completely true.
And if it does not concern him, he does not interfer.
It fits the charactzer.
But in this case ... doesn't Moro pose a treat to his position at all?
Moro is already stated to be above to the Gods in power.

Or ... maybe Beerus is yet again immensely stronger than we initially thought in BOG, and he blows away Moro like a leaf in the atumn winds if it TRUELY matters?

It was stated more than once from BoG and throughout the plot that Goku and Vegeta "will become formidable rivals" for Beerus.
Moro saying he surpassed the gods is the usual generic random boasting. That specifically doesn't upset Beerus's narrative.

[Mister_Popo]

It's always a pleasure to see someone keeping up with the story.
Beerus means has been clearly selfish from the start. The movies and manga has kept it that way.

Yes, he is selfish.

Beerus is known to not give a fxxk. Completely true.
And if it does not concern him, he does not interfer.
It fits the charactzer.
But in this case ... doesn't Moro pose a treat to his position at all?
Moro is already stated to be above to the Gods in power.

Or ... maybe Beerus is yet again immensely stronger than we initially thought in BOG, and he blows away Moro like a leaf in the atumn winds if it TRUELY matters?

It was stated more than once from BoG and throughout the plot that Goku and Vegeta "will become formidable rivals" for Beerus.
Moro saying he surpassed the gods is the usual generic random boasting. That specifically doesn't upset Beerus's narrative.

Yes, but in concreto ...

Goku has not masterd UI, and this far we haven't received a hint he can truely match Moro.
Beerus has been confirmed to not have mastered UI as well.
So based on that, what advantage does he have over UI Omen Goku?

The only reason i can think of ... if he has trained thousands of years longer than Goku, so even with inperfected UI, he still has an advantage towards Goku, at least when he is the UI Omen-form.

I hope we eventually do get a proper indication about what exactly Beerus power is.
It's a nice treat, but it does not have to last forever.

[Miracles]

Yes, he is selfish.

Beerus is known to not give a fxxk. Completely true.
And if it does not concern him, he does not interfer.
It fits the charactzer.
But in this case ... doesn't Moro pose a treat to his position at all?
Moro is already stated to be above to the Gods in power.

Or ... maybe Beerus is yet again immensely stronger than we initially thought in BOG, and he blows away Moro like a leaf in the atumn winds if it TRUELY matters?

It was stated more than once from BoG and throughout the plot that Goku and Vegeta "will become formidable rivals" for Beerus.
Moro saying he surpassed the gods is the usual generic random boasting. That specifically doesn't upset Beerus's narrative.

Yes, but in concreto ...

Goku has not masterd UI, and this far we haven't received a hint he can truely match Moro.
Beerus has been confirmed to not have mastered UI as well.
So based on that, what advantage does he have over UI Omen Goku?

The only reason i can think of ... if he has trained thousands of years longer than Goku, so even with inperfected UI, he still has an advantage towards Goku, at least when he is the UI Omen-form.

I hope we eventually do get a proper indication about what exactly Beerus power is.
It's a nice treat, but it does not have to last forever.

UI doesn't give Goku an automatic pass to victory. In DB's plot, battle power still has to be high enough to even compete with an opponent. That same story has Beerus's power at such a height that Goku and Vegeta has yet to"become his rivals."

We simply have to wait.

[Koitsukai]

Concerned Beerus or any other character in that state for that matter, isn't boring or out of character at all, that makes no sense, he is not a robot or a weirdo like Zeno, it's a feeling, a state of mind, whatever you want to call it and he's proven many times he too can have those emotions.
He wasn't boring or out of character when he went to kill Zamasu. And wouldn't be out of character either if he goes to fight Moro who is about to eat the Earth and if he eats UI Goku then he'll be OP as fuck, and I hardly believe people would get bored if Beerus were to join the fight next month.

What is actually boring is to see a character stagnate, specially when this is the 3rd threat on his level. He is starting to look like that little white-suit Yakuza guy from the Simpsons.

[Miracles]

The point is, It's in character and story consistency for Beerus to not get involved when it doesn't threaten his well being or food.
Boring to one or not. He knew about Broly using Goku and Vegeta's blood for ink and didn't interject. Wasn't concerned in the slightest. No different now with Moro.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

I think we all need to remember who Beerus is. This is the same GoD who let a frost demon emperor rule the universe, a demonic blob of gum destroy anything it its way, and a planet eating goat absorb planet's worth of people.

He only interfered with Zamasu due to how it got him in another timeline killed even then set Goku and Vegeta to fix any problems that he doesn't want to deal with. Beerus constantly does the bare minimum even when doing his job and simply leaves the mess to Goku and Vegeta's turf. There's a reason why Beerus is called an incompetent, just look at his past actions. Do you need anymore examples of Beerus's asshole behavior? Because Beerus not caring about Moro is in character, even if it's annoying how little he cares.

Unless Beerus's direct self preservation is being threatened and he's aware of it, he will simply take a nap or go fish. Beerus only gets involved when something he cares about, like his life or food, his getting threatened. The guy is a self-centered asshole god, something that we all have known about since Beerus has been introduced.

[Mister_Popo]

The point is, It's in character and story consistency for Beerus to not get involved when it doesn't threaten his well being or food.
Boring to one or not. He knew about Broly using Goku and Vegeta's blood for ink and didn't interject. Wasn't concerned in the slightest. No different now with Moro.

I agree with your statement we have to wait and see what exactly Beerus power is.
I am waiting for it only 8 years, so i guess a little more wait could do no harm.
But: if Moro explicitely says 'he's above the Gods', why shouldn't Beerus be completely not concerned at all about this, unless they know each other and don't pose a treat for each other for some reason we don't yet know at this point?

I can understand Moro is secundair within the broader perspective. He is just a secundary character, Beerus at the end has a bigger role to furfilll, simply because he's involved from the beginning of Super.
At the end, the central perspective of this arc is not about Moro, sure he is the main antagonist of the arc, but for this arc to make sense within the broader perspective of the story, it's all about Goku and Vegeta mastering their new ability.

But nontheless: i think there is a contradictory between Beerus, how his powers should be, and how he acts.
Even it's because of humoristic reasons, it's still not very consistent.

[Miracles]

The point is, It's in character and story consistency for Beerus to not get involved when it doesn't threaten his well being or food.
Boring to one or not. He knew about Broly using Goku and Vegeta's blood for ink and didn't interject. Wasn't concerned in the slightest. No different now with Moro.

I agree with your statement we have to wait and see what exactly Beerus power is.
I am waiting for it only 8 years, so i guess a little more wait could do no harm.
But: if Moro explicitely says 'he's above the Gods', why shouldn't Beerus be completely not concerned at all about this, unless they know each other and don't pose a treat for each other for some reason we don't yet know at this point?

I can understand Moro is secundair within the broader perspective. He is just a secundary character, Beerus at the end has a bigger role to furfilll, simply because he's involved from the beginning of Super.
At the end, the central perspective of this arc is not about Moro, sure he is the main antagonist of the arc, but for this arc to make sense within the broader perspective of the story, it's all about Goku and Vegeta mastering their new ability.

But nontheless: i think there is a contradictory between Beerus, how his powers should be, and how he acts.
Even it's because of humoristic reasons, it's still not very consistent.

Beerus only let Whis train Goku so he can be "entertained." As stated by the prophecy. He only woke up from his thousands of years slumber cause someone could supposedly challenge him. He is still waiting for that day from Goku. Therefore, Beerus's powers are where it should be. Due to the plot having him endgame level. This fit's in line with all his other selfish motives; for food etc. He's just like a cat.

Moro saying he is above the gods is a generic statement. Really doesn't mean anything to Beerus who is reserved for the main caster. Moro is nothing more than food [no pun intended] to fuel Goku to his destined purpose by Toriyama. In a rematch with Beerus.

[OLKv3]

The point is, It's in character and story consistency for Beerus to not get involved when it doesn't threaten his well being or food.
Boring to one or not. He knew about Broly using Goku and Vegeta's blood for ink and didn't interject. Wasn't concerned in the slightest. No different now with Moro.

Superstars?

[GodVegetto91]

All this shows is that Beerus is still far ahead of the top dogs.

Beerus >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moro > Broly > Jiren.

The fact that he doesn’t care about the fight against Moro at all, proves that much. He is being kept for Goku and Vegeta to rechallenge again in the future. So he must be the strongest.

Moro’s statement is no contradiction here.
He can still be stronger than all the other 11 Gods of Destruction. Since they don’t have a reason to stay on top of our beyond GoD level Saiyan heroes. Only Beerus does, for the obvious rematch.

[LightBing]

Toyotaro has mapped Beerus power pretty well:

SSJB Vegetto = Beerus (Zamasu Arc)
SSJB Vegeta makes Beerus go serious after punching him. (Before the ToP)

At this point Beerus should still be decently above, however the moment Goku masters Ultra Instinct Beerus has to act. That's the goal, what Whis has been doing in the story, build up Goku and Vegeta to reach Beerus.

My concern is, will the story stretch out and ignore this long plot point? Remember, BoG Goku was a 6 and Beerus a 10, understandably that was supposed to be a isolated movie.

Afraid we will be stuck forever in this decade, Goku and Vegeta just face endless villains. Always improving yet never really moving forward.

[Mister_Popo]

All right, Beerus ignoring Moro might not be an inconcistency, but it's a loose end we still don't exactly know how strong he really is.
They cannot stretch this forever without putting the cards on table, and i am not too fond of Goku vs Beerus rematch being the ending of Super. Sure, everything is tied together at the end, but it feels just too predictable.

Goku has now almost mastered UI.
But Super will probably not end with that.
If Goku masters UI at the ending of this arc, i doubt the rematch will happen right away, if that would mean the ending of Super.
Goku however still keeps training and getting stronger in MUI or even higher forms with angel-like abilites, while Beerus stuck in a non-mastered-UI level keeps his lazyness character but nontheless maintains his advance without being concerned?

At a certain point that game loses its charm and viability.

[WittyUsername]

As much as I don’t like getting into power level debates, they already pitted Goku against an opponent who was explicitly stated to be above the level of a God of Destruction. I know some people have tried to hand wave that by arguing that Jiren is only stronger than Belmod, but by all accounts, Belmod doesn’t appear to be one of the weaker Gods of Destruction. In the anime, it was stated that he beat Beerus in an arm wrestling match, and in the manga, he was the only God who wasn’t badly injured by the end of the exhibition match.

The bottom line is that you can only keep pitting Goku and Vegeta against so many new opponents before the prospect of Goku having a rematch with Beerus feels significantly less exciting.

[Koitsukai]

Nah, Beerus cant' still be massively stronger than everyone like in most of Super. It'd be the worst possible writting ever.
Specially when in the three continuities (anime- Jiren, movies-Broly, and manga SSB FKHH Vegito and most likely FP Moro and I would say the power than beats Moro too) he was stated to have been surpassed at least by someone. His final rematch with Goku won't suffer from co-existing with other characters stronger than him. He can still also master UI, so probably still has a lot of room for improvement.
To keep retconning him would be too lazy and repetitive, Toriyama, Toei and Toyotaro have all in their own way introduced a character that surpasses him, so I would expect they keep going forward.

Although his behaviour is of someone that sees everything like small potatoes, his in-universe reasons for being non-chalant about it, are not power-related, and stated here already (food and selfishness). My issue are the out-of-universe reasons for keeping him out of the fun, is he just a one-trick pony: the rematch?

[Dragon Wukong]

Toyotaro has mapped Beerus power pretty well:

SSJB Vegetto = Beerus (Zamasu Arc)
SSJB Vegeta makes Beerus go serious after punching him. (Before the ToP)

At this point Beerus should still be decently above, however the moment Goku masters Ultra Instinct Beerus has to act. That's the goal, what Whis has been doing in the story, build up Goku and Vegeta to reach Beerus.

My concern is, will the story stretch out and ignore this long plot point? Remember, BoG Goku was a 6 and Beerus a 10, understandably that was supposed to be a isolated movie.

Afraid we will be stuck forever in this decade, Goku and Vegeta just face endless villains. Always improving yet never really moving forward.

SSB Vegito is pretty clearly stated to be above Beerus. How far above is up to debate, but DBS Broly seems to make it clear that SSB fusion surpasses him by a large margin, given the fact Broly was also above Beerus.

One could argue the "Goku is a 6, Beerus is a 10" statement still holds true, Zamasu and the Goku vs Toppo fight both imply that SSG isn't that far in power from SSB. I think after this arc both Goku AND Vegeta will be considered on even footing with Beerus, if not even STRONGER than Beerus.