"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Neon Z]

The lack of kissing lines up with Toriyama's comment about how Goku has no sense of family and only sees Chichi and Gohan as companions.

Sooo... Toyotaro kept the time paradox stuff, but trashed all of Zamasu's characterization, by cutting out the fight with him and Goku, practicaly for nothing? Am I getting this right? Wow...

Huh? I don't think he kept the paradox. With Zamasu learning about Goku without meeting him, there's no paradox regarding Black creating Black, and eventually Beerus breaking the cycle, all without a specific reason. Even though similar events happen in Black's backstory compared to the anime's, there's a clear beginning unrelated to a paradoxical Black (Zamasu learning about Goku) and they'll be stopped due to a clear reason too (the information Goku and the others got from Trunks when he went to the past). The anime making it so in Black's timeline Goku and the others knew about Black creates a completely pointless paradox that the anime staff didn't even know how to justify.

Also, no mystery, no nothing regarding Black's identity. People trashed the anime when this was revealed, in a much better way might I add. I am sure nobody's going to comment on it though.

People trashed the anime because it spent an entire episode with characters going "Black isn't Zamasu!" only to go back and, "Yeah- sorry, Black IS Zamasu!"

Also, manga Black really is more of a Bond villain. Letting Trunks got to get stronger…my god he turned into Cell, which I don't like. I like anime Black who tried to kill Trunks. Although he may not have actively hunted Trunks as much as should have, probably because he did enjoy fighting him thanks to Goku's body, he didn't let him walk away either if he had a kill shot since he was still pragmatic.

Although he didn't tell them in their faces in the anime, he did tell Future Zamasu that they needed the mortal's help to make that body stronger.

[HeroR]

People don't hate the form. They hate the fact that the form has no explanation. Trunks just magically gained it and nobody explained anything about it.

its most likely that he unlocked god ki, or so it seems like going by his aura

And there lies the problem. god ki isn't supposed to be just some random rage powerup. God Ki had 2 movies explaining how special it is. Trunks just gets it just because, no training or nothing, he sees it and suddenly he has it. Vegeta had to train with an angel to use it. Goku had to use a ritual and train with an angel. Trunks just gets it
Comparing this to SSJ3 is not only silly, but an obvious attempt to bash DBZ as if that would nullify a flaw of Super. A flaw that could be fixed easily if they just made any half assed explanation. Give us something!

Trunks trained with Vegeta, and Vegeta did the same thing with Cabba, saying he can reached this form with training. Hinting that you can reached the form by training if you know what you're aiming for.

[Chelentano]

The kissing joke was kept, that's disappointing. I dislike it quite a bit, like I said when it first appeared in the anime it dehumanizes Goku. I now find Goku's and Chi-Chi relationship icky, when they have two sons and never even kissed.
Got to wait for the rest of the completed chapter to form the rest of my opinion.

The cover for volume 2 is beautiful!

Wasn't that a misunderstanding scene, though? Vegeta says that is normal between couples, meaning the kissing and Goku misinterprets that feeding your wife in the mouth is normal and he never did that.

[Draconic]

@Neon Z
Beerus going to kill Zamasu happens just because Trunks came back in time because of Black. Black is a living paradox, so that is still there. And I don't have a problem with it, just as I didn't in the anime. My problem is with the handling of Zamasu. Now he turns evil just because. It ruins the more personal connection he has with Goku from the anime, which explains why he chose Goku's body, his contempt AND respect for him and the reason he was pushed toward becoming evil. All of that is absent now. I don't have problems with paradoxes and time loops as they are pretty much a given in time travel stories, but ruining a character is an issue.

Ahh... And? Misleading the audience is used in most mystery stories. The anime went with a mystery story and the manga didn't. One is a more complex story, the other is just there, much like with Cell who had a mystery aura around him and revealed it in an exposition dump. I had problems there, I do here too.

The story is still entertaining, but the lack of time really is holding Toyotaro back, I feel. He's certainly not at the top of his game neither writing nor art wise.

[Cetra]

Beerus going to kill Zamasu happens just because Trunks came back in time because of Black

Exactly. Goku does not need to do anything. It just needs to happen within the cycle of Trunks coming to them. Also the anime and the Toei chart had a way more interesting explanation for everything by actually explaining the split through Beerus being involved all the time. Granted, most still ignore what was said but it is not like it would matter what fans ignore.

[HeroR]

@Neon Z
Beerus going to kill Zamasu happens just because Trunks came back in time because of Black. Black is a living paradox, so that is still there. And I don't have a problem with it, just as I didn't in the anime. My problem is with the handling of Zamasu. Now he turns evil just because. It ruins the more personal connection he has with Goku from the anime, which explains why he chose Goku's body, his contempt AND respect for him and the reason he was pushed toward becoming evil. All of that is absent now. I don't have problems with paradoxes and time loops as they are pretty much a given in time travel stories, but ruining a character is an issue.

Ahh... And? Misleading the audience is used in most mystery stories. The anime went with a mystery story and the manga didn't. One is a more complex story, the other is just there, much like with Cell who had a mystery aura around him and revealed it in an exposition dump. I had problems there, I do here too.

The story is still entertaining, but the lack of time really is holding Toyotaro back, I feel. He's certainly not at the top of his game neither writing nor art wise.

That is my problem too. What made Black different from Cell is that he didn't tell Goku anything about himself other than vague statements about how the body he had wasn't his own. He didn't tell Goku jack until he figured out closed to 90% of his plan. Which made Black feel refreshing since he didn't fall into the many failings that screwed over Freeza and Cell, like keeping his enemies alive for fun or to make them suffer. Anime Black tried to kill Trunks whenever the chance came up, and Trunks mostly escaped by luck and Mai. Future Zamasu had to actually tell Black to take his time killing Goku to get the most out of him, while Black just wanted to straight up murder him.

So, while I can understand why the manga went this route, manga Black isn't as good as anime Black, imo.

[Neon Z]

@Neon Z
Beerus going to kill Zamasu happens just because Trunks came back in time because of Black. Black is a living paradox, so that is still there.

The main issue is that in the anime, even in the timeline where Black was created, there's supposed to be a time traveling Trunks, and Goku faced Black, which led him to meeting and facing Zamasu. The time split officially comes from Beerus killing Zamasu, so Zamasu survives in his original timeline for no given reason at all. The way Black's backstory is in the manga, there's no implication that he became Black due to the actions of Black himself.

Now he turns evil just because. It ruins the more personal connection he has with Goku from the anime, which explains why he chose Goku's body, his contempt AND respect for him and the reason he was pushed toward becoming evil. All of that is absent now.

The only thing that isn't around is the element of personal humiliation. We still see his development and fall in the manga. And the personal humiliation ended up being a non-issue considering how his final battle as Goku Black wasn't even with Goku himself.

I don't have problems with paradoxes and time loops as they are pretty much a given in time travel stories, but ruining a character is an issue.

Making a paradox come out of nowhere is a really bad storytelling device, especially for a self contained arc like this, rather than the entire premise of a series. Using that plot device they could just make another villain appear out of nowhere at any time.

Ahh... And? Misleading the audience is used in most mystery stories. The anime went with a mystery story and the manga didn't. One is a more complex story, the other is just there, much like with Cell who had a mystery aura around him and revealed it in an exposition dump. I had problems there, I do here too.

The answer to the anime's mystery, aside from unsatisfying to many (which can be seen if you read the weekly discussion back then) in this case comes out of a self sustaining loop that starts and is broken for no given reason. If the anime was supposed to be a mystery, it's a very bad one that broke many rules such stories should follow. In addition to the paradox mentioned above, the anime also made Future Zamasu in his first appearance show personal interest in Goku, just to mislead the viewer into thinking that it was present Zamasu - immediately dropping that part of his characterization after that battle, which is more cheap mystery writing.

[emperior]

@Neon Z
Beerus going to kill Zamasu happens just because Trunks came back in time because of Black. Black is a living paradox, so that is still there. And I don't have a problem with it, just as I didn't in the anime. My problem is with the handling of Zamasu. Now he turns evil just because. It ruins the more personal connection he has with Goku from the anime, which explains why he chose Goku's body, his contempt AND respect for him and the reason he was pushed toward becoming evil. All of that is absent now. I don't have problems with paradoxes and time loops as they are pretty much a given in time travel stories, but ruining a character is an issue.

Ahh... And? Misleading the audience is used in most mystery stories. The anime went with a mystery story and the manga didn't. One is a more complex story, the other is just there, much like with Cell who had a mystery aura around him and revealed it in an exposition dump. I had problems there, I do here too.

The story is still entertaining, but the lack of time really is holding Toyotaro back, I feel. He's certainly not at the top of his game neither writing nor art wise.

That is my problem too. What made Black different from Cell is that he didn't tell Goku anything about himself other than vague statements about how the body he had wasn't his own. He didn't tell Goku jack until he figured out closed to 90% of his plan. Which made Black feel refreshing since he didn't fall into the many failings that screwed over Freeza and Cell, like keeping his enemies alive for fun or to make them suffer. Anime Black tried to kill Trunks whenever the chance came up, and Trunks mostly escaped by luck and Mai. Future Zamasu had to actually tell Black to take his time killing Goku to get the most out of him, while Black just wanted to straight up murder him.

So, while I can understand why the manga went this route, manga Black isn't as good as anime Black, imo.

I'm still holding on for translations before giving my full opinion, but if Black really reveals himself to be Zamasu as soon as he is asked and also spares Trunks just because, even though without him is Zero Mortals Plan is a lot easier. In the anime he wants to kill Trunks whenever he can, and is also a much more pragmatic villain, something we never had in DB.

In the anime he reveals himself only after Goku tells him the theories made by Whis, we also waited a few months before knowing who Black really was. Even though it was almost clear it was Zamasu when Beerus and Whis started suspecting him, when we saw Future Zamasu arrive speculations started stronger than before and actually no one believed he was Zamasu anymore.
Black revealing himself on his second appearance in the manga is very lame. He's almost a Cell clone at this point.

So, in my opinion, Anime Black > Manga Black at least for now

[LightBing]

The kissing joke was kept, that's disappointing. I dislike it quite a bit, like I said when it first appeared in the anime it dehumanizes Goku. I now find Goku's and Chi-Chi relationship icky, when they have two sons and never even kissed.
Got to wait for the rest of the completed chapter to form the rest of my opinion.

The cover for volume 2 is beautiful!

Wasn't that a misunderstanding scene, though? Vegeta says that is normal between couples, meaning the kissing and Goku misinterprets that feeding your wife in the mouth is normal and he never did that.

It seems that it directly refers to kissing. Herms should confirm it sooner or later.

[Cetra]

The main issue is that in the anime, even in the timeline where Black was created, there's supposed to be a time traveling Trunks, and Goku faced Black, which led him to meeting and facing Zamasu. The time split officially comes from Beerus killing Zamasu, so Zamasu survives in his original timeline for no given reason at all. The way Black's backstory is in the manga, there's no implication that he became Black due to the actions of Black himself.

The anime + chart clearly showed what guaranteed Black's existence through the bootstrap paradox: The time ring. Beerus was involved. Beerus has the power to ignore normal time splitting powers. But Black existed with the time ring. And when Beerus destroyed Zamasu, time split (mentioned in the chart). How did it split? The anime has the ring. It had priority over Beerus' power and therefore guaranteed Black's existence. How? By splitting time instead so a "Black-to-be" could exist.

[fexus]

So, Toyotaro ruined Zamasu and Black character. What a boring way to go out.

[Neon Z]

The anime + chart clearly showed what guaranteed Black's existence through the bootstrap paradox: The time ring. Beerus was involved. Beerus has the power to ignore normal time splitting powers. But Black existed with the time ring. And when Beerus destroyed Zamasu, time split (mentioned in the chart). How did it split? The anime has the ring. It had priority over Beerus' power and therefore guaranteed Black's existence. How? By splitting time instead so a "Black-to-be" could exist.

The issue isn't how he survived after Beerus killed him, the issue is how there was even an alternative where Beerus didn't kill him, since he only becomes Black due to the chain of events started by Black - and so everyone would know everything they knew in the final timeline, and even acted the same. So, why was there a divergence where Zamasu successful got away with killing and replacing Gowasu? Why wasn't he killed by Beerus in that timeline? The anime's official timeline just has no explanation for that, and making the official divergence point Beerus' action of killing Zamasu doesn't really help. Even if he wasn't erased, he couldn't just get away at that point.

I'm still holding on for translations before giving my full opinion, but if Black really reveals himself to be Zamasu as soon as he is asked and also spares Trunks just because, even though without him is Zero Mortals Plan is a lot easier. In the anime he wants to kill Trunks whenever he can, and is also a much more pragmatic villain, something we never had in DB.

That happens in the anime too, Black just doesn't tell them directly. In a conversation between the two Zamasu they talk about how they ironically need the mortal's help to strengthen Black in order to push their plan forward.

[emperior]

So, Toyotaro ruined Zamasu and Black character. What a boring way to go out.

Don't worry, he just needs to keep the power levels consistent and people will love the manga and shit on the anime.

[Cetra]

The issue isn't how he survived after Beerus killed him, the issue is how there was even an alternative where Beerus didn't kill him, since he only becomes Black due to the chain of events started by Black - and so everyone would know everything they knew in the final timeline, and even acted the same. So, why was there a divergence where Zamasu successful got away with killing and replacing Gowasu? Why wasn't he killed by Beerus in that timeline? The anime's official timeline just has no explanation for that, and making the official divergence point Beerus' action of killing Zamasu doesn't really help. Even if he wasn't erased, he couldn't just get away at that point.

There is no necessity in explaining how Zamasu got away after that split. The Ring just created a safety timeline at that point so one Zamasu could become Black within that causal loop. The mere fact that through some weird powers the time ring influenced it by having priority manipulated time already so it is not unlikely that it was manipulated even more for the mere reason that it would do anything so Black could be guaranteed. So yes, there is no definitive answer but what we have with this safety timeline is better than what most people wanted where they thought there was no bootstrap and/or alternative timelines long before the Beerus split. The "why was there a divergence" is simply because the time ring did that instead of a more natural "Does Beerus destroy Yes/No" and you could say, in a way acted as a replacement to just make one where he survived. What happened afterwards was not mentioned.

[HeroR]

So, Toyotaro ruined Zamasu and Black character. What a boring way to go out.

Don't worry, he just needs to keep the power levels consistent and people will love the manga and shit on the anime.

Be nice. Some like Neon Z didn't like the mystery and the misleading around Black, which is fine. To each their own. For me, I hate that Black got reduced to Cell's level of villainy.

[Nejishiki]

The issue isn't how he survived after Beerus killed him, the issue is how there was even an alternative where Beerus didn't kill him, since he only becomes Black due to the chain of events started by Black - and so everyone would know everything they knew in the final timeline, and even acted the same. So, why was there a divergence where Zamasu successful got away with killing and replacing Gowasu? Why wasn't he killed by Beerus in that timeline? The anime's official timeline just has no explanation for that, and making the official divergence point Beerus' action of killing Zamasu doesn't really help. Even if he wasn't erased, he couldn't just get away at that point.

The original events transpired without Beerus interfering. It's when Future Trunks time travels before Zamasu learns of Goku where events seemingly start to "loop". That's the factor which decides Beerus and Whis always checks on Gowasu and Zamasu before it permanently "breaks". The Zamasu of Goku's era dies, but the Time Ring ensures Goku Black's survival. I understand where you're coming from. The anime portrayed the repeating events instead of the origin because it wasn't considered important. However, we're led to believe Beerus and Whis interrupt additional Goku Black creations.

[Helios518]

So, Toyotaro ruined Zamasu and Black character. What a boring way to go out.

What happened?

[Neon Z]

The issue isn't how he survived after Beerus killed him, the issue is how there was even an alternative where Beerus didn't kill him, since he only becomes Black due to the chain of events started by Black - and so everyone would know everything they knew in the final timeline, and even acted the same. So, why was there a divergence where Zamasu successful got away with killing and replacing Gowasu? Why wasn't he killed by Beerus in that timeline? The anime's official timeline just has no explanation for that, and making the official divergence point Beerus' action of killing Zamasu doesn't really help. Even if he wasn't erased, he couldn't just get away at that point.

There is no necessity in explaining how Zamasu got away after that split. The Ring just created a safety timeline at that point so one Zamasu could become Black within that causal loop. The mere fact that through some weird powers the time ring influenced it by having priority manipulated time already so it is not unlikely that it was manipulated even more for the mere reason that it would do anything so Black could be guaranteed. So yes, there is no definitive answer but what we have with this safety timeline is better than what most people wanted where they thought there was no bootstrap and/or alternative timelines long before the Beerus split. The "why was there a divergence" is simply because the time ring did that instead of a more natural "Does Beerus destroy Yes/No" and you could say, in a way acted as a replacement to just make one where he survived. What happened afterwards was not mentioned.

That's not how the time ring is described as working in the anime at all though. It doesn't create alternate timelines to stop the user from being killed, it just prevents the user from disappearing due to his past changing/being killed in the past. And when Beerus kills Zamasu, he didn't even have Time Ring yet, so how could there be any timeline where he even gets to the time ring in order to jump to the future and become Goku Black? There's just no explanation. It's a cheap paradox created with no reasoning behind it.

The original events transpired without Beerus interfering. It's when Future Trunks time travels before Zamasu learns of Goku where events seemingly start to "loop". That's the factor which decides Beerus and Whis always checks on Gowasu and Zamasu before it permanently "breaks". The Zamasu of Goku's era dies, but the Time Ring ensures Goku Black's survival. I understand where you're coming from. The anime portrayed the repeating events instead of the origin because it wasn't considered important. However, we're led to believe Beerus and Whis interrupt additional Goku Black creations.

That's what I assumed for a while, and what would make the most sense, but it's not the case. According to the official timeline, Black's original timeline only diverges from the main one at the point where Beerus kills him, which really doesn't make sense, but lines up with the claim that Black is present Zamasu or them reusing the flashback of the Goku vs Zamasu fight in the anime.

[Cetra]

The original events transpired without Beerus interfering. It's when Future Trunks time travels before Zamasu learns of Goku where events seemingly start to "loop".

That is just something that Herms thought when he tried to make sense of the story. He thought there was a time when Trunks did not come back. There was not. Trunks came back. Zamasu's grudge grew. Beerus destroyed Zamasu but because of the time ring and the fact the bootstrap ALWAYS happened and Beerus was ALWAYS involved he had no idea that he was a necessary element and that the time ring had priority over his own power. He destroyed Zamasu and as the chart states, time splits to guarantee there is a Zamasu left that can become Black. Black goes to Trunks. Trunks travels back. Rinse and repeat.

Whatever happened happened.

That's not how the time ring is described as working in the anime at all though. It doesn't create alternate timelines to stop the user from being killed, it just prevents the user from disappearing due to his past changing/being killed in the past. And when Beerus kills Zamasu, he didn't even have Time Ring yet, so how could there be any timeline where he even gets to the time ring in order to jump to the future and become Goku Black? There's just no explanation. It's a cheap paradox created with no reasoning behind it.

The anime does not go into detail how the ring works. It is left ambigious. It protects Black and how it "protects" him is shown on the chart. You have to take everything from the anime and everything from the chart. Beerus' event causes a split. Nothing before or anything else. Nothing is erased. It is a safety timeline. If an alternative timeline would have existed before the Beerus split then it would not have been a "Beerus split" because only what is actually one can split.

[emperior]

I'm still holding on for translations before giving my full opinion, but if Black really reveals himself to be Zamasu as soon as he is asked and also spares Trunks just because, even though without him is Zero Mortals Plan is a lot easier. In the anime he wants to kill Trunks whenever he can, and is also a much more pragmatic villain, something we never had in DB.

That happens in the anime too, Black just doesn't tell them directly. In a conversation between the two Zamasu they talk about how they ironically need the mortal's help to strengthen Black in order to push their plan forward.

In the anime they only need Goku to increase Black's power.