"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[supersaiyanZero]

Finally, some goddamn tension and weight to an arc/fight.

[Regarder]

Honestly, it's weird enough that Beerus and Whis hang around the gang all the time to begin with.

[Zamasu55]

Honestly, it's weird enough that Beerus and Whis hang around the gang all the time to begin with.

Well this time they are not.

[Bullza]

Moro's character design is so bad that surely Toriyama didn't design that right?

Did Total come up with that? Infect does Toriyama have any involvement with this arc because it all seems very fan fictiony.

[Chuquita]

I get 90's Toei Z Movie vibes from the story (all the recycled previous villain story beats) while Moro's character design looks too bland to be Toriyama or Toei. He's an anthropomorphic goat; not absurd enough looking to be Toriyama (yeah Beerus is a cat, but he's an unusual looking breed) not intimidating looking enough to be Toei. He actually makes me think of those fan-made GoDs that floated around prior to the ToP where a lot of them were animals. My guess is he's a Toyotaro design.

The pictures don't load for me, but https://www.kanzenshuu.com/2017/02/17/d ... ump-issue/ sorts out the Toriyama GoDs from the Toyotaro ones.

[HeroR]

Moro's character design is so bad that surely Toriyama didn't design that right?

Did Total come up with that? Infect does Toriyama have any involvement with this arc because it all seems very fan fictiony.

He's overseeing it, but that's all we really know.

This pet peeve of mines, fanfiction isn't an indication of quality. It just means a piece of fiction written by a fan.

[HeroR]

I get 90's Toei Z Movie vibes from the story (all the recycled previous villain story beats) while Moro's character design looks too bland to be Toriyama or Toei. He's an anthropomorphic goat; not absurd enough looking to be Toriyama (yeah Beerus is a cat, but he's an unusual looking breed) not intimidating looking enough to be Toei. He actually makes me think of those fan-made GoDs that floated around prior to the ToP where a lot of them were animals. My guess is he's a Toyotaro design.

The pictures don't load for me, but https://www.kanzenshuu.com/2017/02/17/d ... ump-issue/ sorts out the Toriyama GoDs from the Toyotaro ones.

Toriyama created Beerus, Champa, Sidra, and U4's god. He co-op with Toyo to make U2 god and Belmond. The rest are Toyo.

[PFM18]

Finally, some goddamn tension and weight to an arc/fight.

You mean it wasn't enough when losing the tournament meant your entire Universe being erased? Fighting for the existence of your universe wasn't enough tension for you, or what?

[Bullza]

This pet peeve of mines, fanfiction isn't an indication of quality. It just means a piece of fiction written by a fan.

Right, that's what I mean. The current events in the manga come across as no different from the usual run of the mill stereotypical fan fiction story.

I'd expect to see this kind of thing in one of those Dragon Ball AF fan manga titles. Toyotaro did write one of those stereotypical fan fiction stories in the past with his Dragon Ball AF which is why I asked if Toriyama has any involvement.

This doesn't read at all like something that Toriyama would come up with or has much involvement with. Same with the character design of Moro, it's too poor for that to have been done by him.

[HeroR]

This pet peeve of mines, fanfiction isn't an indication of quality. It just means a piece of fiction written by a fan.

Right, that's what I mean. The current events in the manga come across as no different from the usual run of the mill stereotypical fan fiction story.

I'd expect to see this kind of thing in one of those Dragon Ball AF fan manga titles. Toyotaro did write one of those stereotypical fan fiction stories in the past with his Dragon Ball AF which is why I asked if Toriyama has any involvement.

This doesn't read at all like something that Toriyama would come up with or has much involvement with. Same with the character design of Moro, it's too poor for that to have been done by him.

Well, people claimed that Future Trunks returning, an 'evil Goku', a multiverse tournament, and Broly coming back were all fanfic ideas and it all happened in Super with some of them being Toriyama's idea.

[Kanassa]

he showed relief that everything worked out, suggesting that he would have done something if things went too far south.

No, it doesn't suggest that at all.

The whole point of Beerus' role in the Broly movie, particularly his dialogue at the start, was to reinforce the fact that he's just as much of a lazy shit as he ever has been. For that matter, nothing in either version of the Universe Survival arc indicated he'd develop any kind of propensity to change his ways.

And why would he?

Beerus, contrary to popular belief, isn't a main character in Super. There's no real narrative basis for initiating any development on his behalf because the stories often don't revolve around him. What purpose would it serve? How would it drive the plot?

This idea that all fan-favorites automatically deserve some kind of internal change is trivial when they're not presented as anything more than a plot device at best and meaningless fluff at worst.

No, that's not the point at all. And yes, Beerus is a main character to Super, his development is a part of it as he changes from a mostly lazy God with no purpose or care, to someone with lazy tendencies, but does give a shit about doing his job and is fond of the Z-Fighters (Since part of Super is showing the Gods the value of Mortals). Like in the Zamasu arc where he actually gave a shit about the likes of Trunks breaking the time travel rule and Zamasu killing a Supreme Kai. The TOP was a wake-up call that even during the tournament had him admitting he and Shin needed to get their shit together as he gained respect for the weaker characters. He most certainly wouldn't be going "Yeah, let Goku and Vegeta die. Fuck 'em"

Saying that Beerus had no development requires to outright ignore most of Super and even then, even if he was his BoG self, his line about not helping the situation because he won't help water drinkers is STILL absolute bullshit. Outside of it making events pointless, it makes no fucking sense because Beerus has seemingly lost all sense of self-preservation. The same Beerus that freaked out when Goku just talked to the Omni King isn't at all fearful of a guy who's going to go after a Supreme Kai?

[Bullza]

Well, people claimed that Future Trunks returning, an 'evil Goku', a multiverse tournament, and Broly coming back were all fanfic ideas and it all happened in Super with some of them being Toriyama's idea.

Well there's the ideas and the execution. Broly coming back was only a thing because he was popular with fans but it was still handled in a way you could tell that Toriyama was involved. Same with the others.

This saga so far is just like what you would expect a fan to come up with and write. An all powerful two dimensional villain with an unfitting character design pops up, there's virtually no story and the main characters are immediately thrust into battle with this villain with transformations here and there.

Like YoungJijis Dragon Ball AF, Ize showed up and before you know it they were all just fighting, there was no story they just jumped straight into.

That's not how Toriyama did things. Even in the manga of the Future Trunks Saga, Goku Black was introduced but a lot happened before Goku or Vegeta finally got around to fighting him. There was story and things of interest that went on first.

There's been almost no story in this saga, no build up, Moro was introduced in the present at the end of Chapter 43. By Chapter 44 they were already fighting him and it's been that way through Chapter 46.

[Marlowe89]

No, that's not the point at all.

It absolutely is the point.

Beerus' contribution to the movie amounts to re-emphasizing the same traits we've been exposed to throughout the entirety of Super. That's it. There was zero implied motivation to inferfere in that fight if "things went south", just as there was zero implied motivation to help Goku, Vegeta and Trunks fight Black in the future.

Beerus does nothing in the Universe 6, Future Trunks and Universe Survival arcs to propel him beyond anything more than his usual plot device status. Those stories aren't about him, after all. He didn't receive a lick of substantial development that wasn't already thoroughly established in Battle of Gods.

Saying that Beerus had no development requires to outright ignore most of Super and even then, even if he was his BoG self, his line about not helping the situation because he won't help water drinkers is STILL absolute bullshit.

You don't understand what I'm saying.

If it holds zero relevance to the plot, why would I give a single flying fuck about Beerus having character development? Why is it necessary, and what makes it necessary? Why would I care about seeing Beerus go through some kind of personality shift in a story that fundamentally doesn't revolve around his character? What's the point?

Those are rhetorical questions, of course, so I'll answer them for you: I wouldn't. I don't read Dragon Ball for fanservice, I read Dragon Ball for its focused storytelling. If what I'm getting isn't related to the characters that actually matter within a given arc, it's pandering in every meaningful sense of the word.

Criticism without context isn't valid criticism. We don't even know if Moro is pursuing the Supreme Kai.

[HeroR]

Well, people claimed that Future Trunks returning, an 'evil Goku', a multiverse tournament, and Broly coming back were all fanfic ideas and it all happened in Super with some of them being Toriyama's idea.

Well there's the ideas and the execution. Broly coming back was only a thing because he was popular with fans but it was still handled in a way you could tell that Toriyama was involved. Same with the others.

This saga so far is just like what you would expect a fan to come up with and write. An all powerful two dimensional villain with an unfitting character design pops up, there's virtually no story and the main characters are immediately thrust into battle with this villain with transformations here and there.

Like YoungJijis Dragon Ball AF, Ize showed up and before you know it they were all just fighting, there was no story they just jumped straight into.

That's not how Toriyama did things. Even in the manga of the Future Trunks Saga, Goku Black was introduced but a lot happened before Goku or Vegeta finally got around to fighting him. There was story and things of interest that went on first.

There's been almost no story in this saga, no build up, Moro was introduced in the present at the end of Chapter 43. By Chapter 44 they were already fighting him and it's been that way through Chapter 46.

We got at least two chapters of build up before Goku and Vegeta run off to fight Moro. We also got a lot of background on the guy.

But I do agree that the guy is extremely 2D.

[AnimeNation101]

I swear Beerus is about as active in the plot of Super as Piccolo at this point.

Good. It provides more tension that way

Agreed. I kinda wish Beerus took another long nap. Or maybe Zeno and the GP re-establish that Gods shouldn’t directly interfere with the affairs of mortals.

Whatever gets the Gods away.

Infact, I'm kinda waiting for an arc where one of its main themes is “the repercussions of mortals relying on the gods too much”.

[AnimeNation101]

Well, people claimed that Future Trunks returning, an 'evil Goku', a multiverse tournament, and Broly coming back were all fanfic ideas and it all happened in Super with some of them being Toriyama's idea.

Well there's the ideas and the execution. Broly coming back was only a thing because he was popular with fans but it was still handled in a way you could tell that Toriyama was involved. Same with the others.

This saga so far is just like what you would expect a fan to come up with and write. An all powerful two dimensional villain with an unfitting character design pops up, there's virtually no story and the main characters are immediately thrust into battle with this villain with transformations here and there.

Like YoungJijis Dragon Ball AF, Ize showed up and before you know it they were all just fighting, there was no story they just jumped straight into.

That's not how Toriyama did things. Even in the manga of the Future Trunks Saga, Goku Black was introduced but a lot happened before Goku or Vegeta finally got around to fighting him. There was story and things of interest that went on first.

There's been almost no story in this saga, no build up, Moro was introduced in the present at the end of Chapter 43. By Chapter 44 they were already fighting him and it's been that way through Chapter 46.

Feels like Battle of Gods. We quickly find out about Beerus. Then we already confront him. And we lose. Thats where we are with the Galactic Patrol Prisoner arc.

I think ur problem is that Moro and everything with him feels disconnected.

In the Saiyan saga, the connection between the villains and main cast was that they were the same race as Goku and Raditz added extra connection by being Goku’s brother and the first of the main villains. There are enough henchmen to build up for the final confrontation between Goku and Vegeta.

Namek saga, the connection is established by Freeza being the boss of the saiyans, the previous villains. Not to mention, Vegeta staying alive proved resourceful as a source of exposition for the main villain and it was especially affective because we knew of Vegeta prior. There are enough henchmen to build up for the final confrontation between Goku and Vegeta.

Cell Saga, Trunks was connected well by being the son of Vegeta and Bulma, 2 major cast members and he connected the Androids to the main cast through himself. The Androids established another strong connection by being Red Ribbon ones with Dr. Gero even having a motive/backstory specifically for why he’s targeting Goku. Cell also benefits from these connections. Again, there are enough henchmen to build up for the final confrontation between Goku and Vegeta. Hell, its even better that they aren’t even henchmen, but a seperate group. So its 3 parties. The z fighters, the Androids, and Cell.

Buu Saga, no real connection that happens here.

R.o.f, its a revenge story so the connection comes from its main villain Freeza and his past experience with the main cast. Tons of henchmen.

U6 v U7 arc and T.o.P had no villain.

FT Arc had connections from the previously established ones from the Cell Saga. With the FT arc, they fight Black right off the bat BUT the build up from this arc isn’t for a final confrontation but for finding out the mystery of who Black really was.

Broly arc, Broly is the same race as Goku and Vegeta and all 3 had origins on Planet Vegeta. A similar connection to the one used in he Saiyan Saga.

Moro arc. The only connection Moro had was with the Daikaioshin who we barely even knew about, so that alone is weak and doesn’t even apply to the main cast making the connection weaker. So on top of any lack of history the main cast has with him, we dont have a backstory for him and his motive seems to be that he does shit because “he’s evil.” So Moro just feels like a very “outta the blue” villain. And on top of that, we fight him right off that bat. But unlike the FT arc, there is no build up for a mystery of something. This arc has nothing to build up except for a rematch at the end which isn’t that strong of a thing to build up, imo. He should have had henchmen or something. Made himself the final boss.

I think that’s the problem you have with Moro.

[Kanassa]

No, that's not the point at all.

It absolutely is the point.

Beerus' contribution to the movie amounts to re-emphasizing the same traits we've been exposed to throughout the entirety of Super. That's it. There was zero implied motivation to inferfere in that fight if "things went south", just as there was zero implied motivation to help Goku, Vegeta and Trunks fight Black in the future.

Beerus does nothing in the Universe 6, Future Trunks and Universe Survival arcs to propel him beyond anything more than his usual plot device status. Those stories aren't about him, after all. He didn't receive any development that wasn't already thoroughly established in Battle of Gods.

Him actually getting off his ass to do his job? Erasing Zamasu? Him showing his care of Goku and co? His steadily growing respect and politeness towards the Z Fighters? Him realizing that he needs to shape up? The stories are about Goku and his effect on the other major characters, thus how they change is pretty important.

You don't understand what I'm saying.

You said that Beerus didn't have any character development and thus it wasn't dumb for him to suddenly have no sense of self-preservation despite caring about threats to his life and job before.

Do you understand what you've said?

If it holds zero relevance to the plot, why would I give a single flying fuck about Beerus having character development? Why is it necessary, and what makes it necessary? Why would I care about seeing Beerus go through some kind of personality shift in a story that fundamentally doesn't revolve around his character? What's the point?

Those are rhetorical questions, of course, so I'll answer them for you: I wouldn't. I don't read Dragon Ball for fanservice, I read Dragon Ball for its focused storytelling.

Because Beerus is an interesting character and apart of the plot? He's not the leading character, but he's doesn't have to be a pivotal character for the audience to be invested in his development as a character The character simply has to be engaging and interesting.

If what I'm getting isn't related to the characters that actually matter within a given arc, it's pandering in every meaningful sense of the word.

Adding arbitrary rules to try and justify your misuse of words doesn't make it look any better when you clearly don't know what pandering is (Then again, you don't seem to know what your own point is). I don't know if you know about basic storytelling, but it isn't pandering.

[Lionel]

So much conversation about Beerus and the fight. In the interest of adding to those points, what about the Namekian people themselves? If Goku and Vegeta are forced to retreat then the mass murdering of that population is almost inevitable. If they're extinguished then apart from the in-universe tragedy of itself, their Dragon Balls would be rendered unusable. I guess they could always resurrect them all using Earth's. Imagine if Moro made it to Earth, though. You would have a serious problem then -- barring the intervention of Whis or the utilisation of the Super Dragon Balls, of course.

[Sora Saiyan]

Moro's character design is so bad that surely Toriyama didn't design that right?

Did Total come up with that? Infect does Toriyama have any involvement with this arc because it all seems very fan fictiony.

Yes, Toriyama is involved in this arc, as was said around the time it first started.

"I'm teaming up with Toriyama sensei and getting a lot of praise as I make it"
It does seem to be more Toyo, but we do know that Toriyama is involved enough for it to be referred to as "teaming up"

[Michsi]

Really wanted to wait for the official chapter to be out, but those pages with Beerus make me want to write something regarding it- even though I haven't paid a lot of attention to the manga prior to it's international release one impression I had about it was that in the manga the characters are somewhat meaner and colder. Toyotaro took Toriyama's "they are not nice people" advice very seriously it seems. This depiction of Beerus is unfortunate since I believed that he had warmed up to the group. Things might change once the full version is out- if that scene with Beerus is before Goku and Vegeta lose than that might be interpreted as him thinking they could handle it, but if it's while the Namekians get slaughtered, well....