"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[ChronoTwigger]

Moro had to forcily use spheres for "that untold wish", so chances of a slight complex battle arise.
There is also Merus misterious strenght to solve.

I have a very very very strong Zamasu feel.
Merus== Future Trunks.
"I don't want for Namekians to suffer" == "I don't want for siblings to suffer"
"Wanna see magics?" == "Wanna see my fashion hairs?"
"Let's call Zeno!" == "Let's call Buu!"
Moro will turn "merged Zamasu" mode after spheres, Meerus true power blow him but not entirely, messed up universe, Buu clean up.

My two cents on that.

[Bullza]

I agree with those who say this Saga is too fast paced.

Moro was only last introduced in the previous chapter and now they're already fighting him. Obviously it's not the final battle but it's just too soon.

Back in Dragon Ball, they introduced Vegeta and it was a good while before Goku finally fought him. They introduced Frieza and took ages before he fought anyone and much longer until he fought Goku. Similar thing with Cell he had his fight straight off with Piccolo but it was a bit before he fought Vegeta and quite long before fighting Goku.

It was only with Buu that they got on a bit quicker. Otherwise it was built up and you looked forward to it when it came.

Here they've just jumped into straight off like the Super 17 Saga. It's what I would expect to see in fanfiction where a villain is introduced, there's nothing in-between and they just jump straight into the fight.

The ideas aren't too bar with them fleshing out the Galactic Patrol and maybe bringing the Grand Supreme Kai back but there should have a lot more added before they all got to fighting on Namek.

[TKA]

How on Earth could it be too fast paced when you don’t even know what the endgame looks like? While I vehemently disagree with the notion that the Tournament of Power was rushed in the manga, at least in that instance I can see that people are coming to that conclusion because they’re comparing it to the anime. This is content that you have literally no clue about how things will play out.

[Shaddy]

Well first off, things can feel too fast and too slow without you necessarily knowing the end of the story. Passing off people calling the manga ToP feeling too fast as "well they just wanted it to be like the anime" is a little dismissive. I didn't know exactly how Homestuck was going to end but seeing it happen with no character interactions or general twists and turns still made it feel completely unsatisfying and off-putting, like a telegraphed deliberate misdirect that never happens.

Secondly, "rushed" in this case feels more "haphazard and phoned-in because I didn't have enough time to make it good" than literally too fast. We're already fighting Moro, and like it or not there's never been an arc villain introduced with as little development as this before one of the main heroes got into a fight with them, whether that was the main battle or not. That's not a mystery, it's saying "he's evil" and calling that a personality. It's Toyotaro's never adding establishing shots applied to the entire story. We've had this guy built up through dialogue but not actions. We don't know what we're trying to stop other than "a bad guy", and the heroes have no stakes in this other than "we wanted to help out". Comparing it to fanfiction, or Toyo's own DBAF (with basically all the same issues) is completely warranted because it feels completely hollow. It feels rushed in construction, not necessarily the literal speed it's moving at. I think it's more that it wasn't phrased the best.

[Green_Goblin]

I find it unfitting that the fandom had decided that YET TO BE NAMED defuncted Friza soldier is "Raspberry", for all we know that character had died on Namek in filler. Just because someone on the Dragon Ball Wikia had decided that they're the same guy doesn't mean the whole world has to follow it. There were FAR TOO MANY mistakes in that wiki to begin with, and I have been there since 2006, so trust me on that one.

Anyhows back to the Moro Arc: It's clear that the story will somehow go back to Majin Buu, I don't think the Galactic Patrol will manage to unfuse the Grand Kaioshin out of him, they'll probably say that it took only 1 million years of living inside of Buu for him to completely be fused/part of his DNA structure.
Vegeta will prone to lose due to him being always a "first to test new rival, first to lose to it". I don't know what magic will Moro use but it's clearly going to happen. Goku will probably battle Moro and then that humanoid lackey will step in, somehow buying Moro time to pull a magic trick to gather all the Namekian Dragon Balls and get his wish, afterwards he'll grab that poor used-yet-not-realizing-it lackey and will tell him that he'll fulfil his wish to be safe from the Frieza Force and Galactic Patrol with where he's going to - then he'll absorb his life energy and resume to battle Goku and Vegeta, the one to defeat Moro will be Majin Buu (probably will power up immensly while fighting and eventually transform into Fit Buu on the way) using his magic, won't be surprised if he'll use his chocolate beam and will eat Moro up in the end.

2 End of Z points should lead you to the conclusion: 1) Majin Buu is still fat by EoZ. 2) BOTH Goku and Vegeta who allegedly always had God Ki in EoZ think that Majin Buu is "strong as heck"/their strongest opponnent/sparring rival (tone may change this time around) to date.

[Alruneia]

I find it unfitting that the fandom had decided that YET TO BE NAMED defuncted Friza soldier is "Raspberry", for all we know that character had died on Namek in filler. Just because someone on the Dragon Ball Wikia had decided that they're the same guy doesn't mean the whole world has to follow it. There were FAR TOO MANY mistakes in that wiki to begin with, and I have been there since 2006, so trust me on that one.

Jumping to conclusions is one of the things this fandom does best. This is just another entry in the list of things people have jumped to conclusions about during Super's run. Some ended up to be right, most didn't.

[Super Saiyan Swagger]

Hmmm... I don't know how to feel about this current arc. There's stuff that I like and stuff that I dislike.

I know that Goku and Vegeta are the stars of Super, but we literally just got a story where the two of them have to take on an opponent (Broly). I like how the Galactic Patrol are involved in this arc. It also ties into the previous Kaioshin, which is neat. Moro's an intriguing enough antagonist, but man do I dislike his design. He's just an old, bearded goat-man. I hope his character will make up for his design. Do we really have to go back to Namek, though? I'm sick of that place. I want to see new locations, not old ones that we've seen several times before.

It's still really early for me to make proper judgement of this arc since we're only three chapters into it. It at the very least has me interested enough to keep on reading, but I don't know if I want the anime to return with a story like this. Fingers crossed that it'll get way more interesting as more chapters release.

[Liquir]

Info on DBS manga sales from France.
DBS Manga was the most sold manga in France in 2018 ( Sales numbers from volumes 3 and 4 only ) (Volume 5 was published later in November)
Volume 3 has sold 108 203 copies; / Volume 4 has sold 87 808 copies.
France Top 20 comic rankings:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DxMC2-OXgAAGT9u.jpg

[The Monkey King]

So far Moro is giving me strong King Piccolo vibes

Also Vegeta's line about saving Namekians is the best thing he's said in years.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Hope Toyotaro draws a more attractive Goku like when he had Ultra Instinct, it would be much more pleasing to look at.

[ruler9871]

I'm not the biggest fan of the Super manga (I actually think Toyotaro's AF manga is better) but one thing I've noticed is that he (like Toei) is often at his best when he breaks away from Toriyama's outline. I'm enjoying this current arc so far, and his current take on Vegeta is an improvement over the crap Toyotaro portrayed him in the manga's ToP.

However, I agree that he needs to slow the storytelling down a bit. It's not as bad as the manga's ToP (which was awful) but it could take its time more.

[Noitsnothim]

Okay so i've been noticing a lot of people who are saying that toyo's speeding up the story just because they're at new namek and Moro wants a wish from the namekian Dragon Balls (for all we know his wish could be to regain all of his lost magic) people are jumping to conclusions way too early when the final spectacle and true purpose of this new saga hasnt even been shown yet and we should all give it sometime (maybe 4-5 more chapters then decide if either it'll land or fall on its ass)

I'm loving this new saga and Moro looks extremely creepy and I love that Daikaioh is required because we really didn't get to see much of him nor his incredible fighting skills or power as the highest supreme kai....for all you know Piccolo and Gohan (Beerus and whis) or any of the other Z-warriors could become useful somehow so let's give the saga sometime to expand itself please!

[TKA]

Well first off, things can feel too fast and too slow without you necessarily knowing the end of the story. Passing off people calling the manga ToP feeling too fast as "well they just wanted it to be like the anime" is a little dismissive.

Here you're conflating two things.

1. I said I can understand the complaint that the manga's ToP was too fast because the anime did it with a meandering pace. That means people already had a perception of what the Arc is/should be planted into their heads. If I liked the snail's pace the anime went at, then I'm sure I too would've been blinded to what the manga was doing and complain about rushing too.

2. I said you literally can't complain about things moving too fast because you don't know where things are going. Did you also complain about Raditz showing up, dropping a lot of important exposition, then kidnapping Gohan and then forcing Goku and Piccolo to work together? Because that's a lot more stuff in a lot less time than what we have gotten in this arc so far.

Calm down. The arc is slow, if anything.

Secondly, "rushed" in this case feels more "haphazard and phoned-in because I didn't have enough time to make it good" than literally too fast.

Cool, then say that. That's at least a more defensible position than some arbitrary notion of speed.

We're already fighting Moro, and like it or not there's never been an arc villain introduced with as little development as this before one of the main heroes got into a fight with them, whether that was the main battle or not.

I'm sure people had the same complaint about Raditz when he first showed up. Surely he would've seemed like the main villain. Surely people had the same complaint when Cell debuted by getting into a fight with Piccolo. Surely people had the same problem when Majin Buu's debut was fighting Gohan, Kaioshin and Vegeta.

This is nothing new. You also have zero idea where this is going. Moro could easily be just a fodder character who is replaced by someone else, like Raditz. He could also be the final boss. Who knows? That's the point, really. Nobody does.

That's not a mystery, it's saying "he's evil" and calling that a personality.

Again, you're conflating two things.

1. The mystery doesn't relate to Moro's personality/alignment. The mystery is everything around Moro. What does he want? How strong is he? Who even is Moro? Etc.

2. Moro is evil, and has had only 1 chapter in the story thus far.

You talk about rushing, but it seems like you're the one jumping the gun here.

It's Toyotaro's never adding establishing shots applied to the entire story. We've had this guy built up through dialogue but not actions.

I don't think "establishing shots" is what you're looking for. If you mean he hasn't yet given Moro's character an establishing moment... then you're also wrong. Moro was introduced eating planets in a flashback and beating the piss out of two Kaioshin. That showed his threat level right off the bat. Personally, this is the stronger character establishing moment for me.

We don't know what we're trying to stop other than "a bad guy"

That's all they've ever wanted to stop in Dragonball though. Stop the bad guy. That's all it ever amounts to, yes.

and the heroes have no stakes in this other than "we wanted to help out"

This is a legitimate complaint and I think now we can get somewhere. Piccolo Daimao, Raditz, Nappa and Vegeta, Frieza, the Androids, Cell, and Buu all made it personal with the main cast. So far, Moro is this outside context villain that has no real connection to the main characters. But, again, we're 2.3 chapters into this arc.

Comparing it to fanfiction, or Toyo's own DBAF (with basically all the same issues) is completely warranted because it feels completely hollow. It feels rushed in construction, not necessarily the literal speed it's moving at. I think it's more that it wasn't phrased the best.

I don't read Dragonball fanfiction, nor have I read Toyble's DBAF. To your complaint, all I can say is you're being far too hasty in trying to diagnose a problem. It's 2.3 chapters into the new arc, with the villain being an active character in only 1/2.3 chapters. Slow your roll and just let things unfold.

I can't imagine how much people would freak out if I said the Tournament of Power in the anime was shit after watching 6/54 episodes of it if they get so bent out of shape when I've watched 34/54 episodes out of it.

[batistabus]

It's Toyotaro's never adding establishing shots

What do you mean by this? I think I know what you're referring to, but I'd like to hear you explain it first.

[batistabus]

Shaddy appears to have deleted his post, but in it he confirmed what I suspected. We're talking about he perception that Toyotaro does not draw "establishing shots", which is so blatantly false that I wish this wasn't necessary. For those of you who don't know, an establishing shot lays out the characters and setting in a scene so the reader has a sense of what's going. In other words, it helps the reader contextualize closeups and action shots. To say that Toyotaro demonstrates a "literal failure" to draw them is such an absurd criticism that there are only 2 ways you could actually believe this: 1) if you're just making things up to insult Toyotaro, or 2) because you watched TotallyNotMark's ridiculous video titled "Fixing Dragon Ball Super's Manga". Hopefully I can stomp this out now so we can stop hearing about it, because this isn't the first time it's been mentioned here.

Flip to just about any given chapter and you'll find an establishing shot. I picked 7 chapters that I remember having specific fights in them, and it turns out they all have establishing shots:

Chapter 4

Spoiler:

Chapter 9

Spoiler:

Chapter 12

Spoiler:

Chapter 15

Spoiler:

Chapter 16

Spoiler:

Chapter 24

Spoiler:

Chapter 40

Spoiler:

Hell, there are MULTIPLE examples in the most recent chapter. If the response to this is "well yeah but they suck", then I'm not willing to go there.

Now, to be fair to TNM (which he deserves despite being quite unfair to Toyotaro), I don't believe he said Toyotaro never utilizes establishing shots. He strongly implies Toyotaro is incompetent for not using one in the scene he's ""fixing"", but he doesn't outright say he never uses them. Even so, the scene he's criticizing takes place in the MIDDLE OF THE BATTLE AGAINST JIREN. The battle has been ongoing for a number of chapters up until that point. We know Goku is fighting Jiren on the Tournament of Power stage...not every single chapter needs to begin with an establishing shot.

Maybe this criticism wasn't inspired by what I expected, but even if it wasn't, I've seen people post TNM's videos as evidence for their arguments plenty of times in this thread. The overwhelming majority of Dragon Ball Youtubers are not reliable sources of information. Videos like that can be fun to watch, but the best way to talk about Dragon Ball in an informed way is to read/watch it for yourself.

[TKA]

As an aside, I eventually osmosized some of the things TNM said in his video. Apparently at one point he edited the pages and said "And this would add a light vs dark aspect to Goku vs Jiren". He put Jiren in the dark and Goku in the light.

That pretty much does a perfect job of showing how little he understood and is grounds enough to disqualify him from "improving" the manga. Neither Jiren nor Goku is dark. Jiren's a pretty good guy in the manga, and Goku sure as heck ain't evil.

There's a kind of narcissistic bravado with these youtube reviewer types. A few years ago, Chris Stuckman claimed he could improve Batman v Superman, and made a fool of himself in the process. He proudly declared he did that in 20 minutes, but after he saw how poorly it was received he claimed he did it for "the lulz".

The point of this is don't go trying to "improve" a creator's work when you don't understand the ethos with which the person created the work. In addition to that, it's easy to find flaws because hindsight is 20/20, but to create something yourself from scratch requires so much more.

You can criticize, but don't you dare say you can do it better.

[Shaddy]

[condescending self-wank]

So, besides the fact that this is misinterpreting my point entirely, that Toyotaro fails to pace either his writing or his art properly on multiple occasions (all I did was draw parallels between these things), cherry-picking a bunch of sort-of examples does not actually make it better, nor does it do anything but force people to then further compare it to Toriyama's much better work because OOPS! Toriyama actually does do that just about every chapter or so, sometimes more than once. Funny how that works out, huh?

Second, the elitism is real here. I like how this place has somehow become some hive of "yeah fuck anyone with a youtube channel they're not REAL fans because they don't agree with me", like that somehow precludes a person from making any valid points about anything. This isn't fucking Mastar Media or dumb powerscaling shit, and ignoring legitimate criticism with this kind of ad-hominem behavior (especially with such weak rebuttals as "uh but Jiren isn't bad so Toyotaro actually has no composition issues haha checkmate liberals") is poison to any actual real discussion, and rampant throughout this thread.

That's why I deleted the post, because I decided I had more enjoyable and important things to do with my time than argue with walls, but I guess you decided to supersede that anyway. Good job.

Oh and thanks for the implication that because I happened to agree with someone who made a youtube video, that somehow means I didn't read the manga. Real classy.

[Marlowe89]

I picked 7 chapters that I remember having specific fights in them, and it turns out they all have establishing shots:

Most of those aren't establishing shots. You're also misusing the term.

An establishing shot is a technique (primarily associated with filmmaking) used at the start of a scene to establish and provide an overview of its setting before the scene actually kicks off, usually employed as an extreme-wide shot, an aerial view or some combination of the two. In most establishing shots, the characters aren't even visible. They don't occur in the middle of scenes like many of the examples you've laid out, and to my knowledge, nobody - professionally, at least - has ever discussed them in that context.

Now I don't really care enough about Totally Not Mark's opinion to give him clicks, but just wanted to set the record straight for those who might be curious.

[Shaddy]

Mark was never even the subject, the point was that Toyotaro doesn't know how to pace things in writing or composition, I just happened to mention a point he made. There's plenty of reasons I could describe about how this arc feels like it's rushing regardless of whether it literally is, how nothing feels impactful or important, and how boring the villain is and any intrigue has been lost because he's going to be exactly the same as every other DB villain but with less personality. I did describe it at length in fact, I just deleted it because I realized this shit will never go anywhere.

[shadowfox87]

As an aside, I eventually osmosized some of the things TNM said in his video. Apparently at one point he edited the pages and said "And this would add a light vs dark aspect to Goku vs Jiren". He put Jiren in the dark and Goku in the light.

That pretty much does a perfect job of showing how little he understood and is grounds enough to disqualify him from "improving" the manga. Neither Jiren nor Goku is dark. Jiren's a pretty good guy in the manga, and Goku sure as heck ain't evil.

There's a kind of narcissistic bravado with these youtube reviewer types. A few years ago, Chris Stuckman claimed he could improve Batman v Superman, and made a fool of himself in the process. He proudly declared he did that in 20 minutes, but after he saw how poorly it was received he claimed he did it for "the lulz".

The point of this is don't go trying to "improve" a creator's work when you don't understand the ethos with which the person created the work. In addition to that, it's easy to find flaws because hindsight is 20/20, but to create something yourself from scratch requires so much more.

You can criticize, but don't you dare say you can do it better.

Completely agree. Couldn't have set it better. While there is always room for improvement, it's quite easy to criticize and find flaws in a work after it has been done. There were some points I can agree with TNM on but not all. When people watch youtube videos, they should still use their own mind to formulate their own opinions. You can almost always find a reviewer that will find something bad about something regardless of what it is.