"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:24 am

So I was re-reading the previous Granolah arc chapters and I got to the coveratation in chapter 69 between Beerus and Vegeta where Beerus asks Vegeta about the Saiyans past and how many planets they destroyed. Vegeta questions him about what that has to do with the hakai technique, and Beerus just says "Plenty" with no further explanation, and I think thus explains what's going on with Vegeta during the last few panels of the current chapter. Maybe to fully utilize hakai, he has to embrace his violent and destructive side, and bring out the old Vegeta that he's been suppressing all these years. Has anyone else thought of this?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:15 am

UpFromTheSkies wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:24 am So I was re-reading the previous Granolah arc chapters and I got to the coveratation in chapter 69 between Beerus and Vegeta where Beerus asks Vegeta about the Saiyans past and how many planets they destroyed. Vegeta questions him about what that has to do with the hakai technique, and Beerus just says "Plenty" with no further explanation, and I think thus explains what's going on with Vegeta during the last few panels of the current chapter. Maybe to fully utilize hakai, he has to embrace his violent and destructive side, and bring out the old Vegeta that he's been suppressing all these years. Has anyone else thought of this?
It would be a proper progression for the character, being able to access that kind of mentality without getting caught up in it.

I still want to know what kind of power up hakai gives Vegeta... is he already stronger for using it, or does it make him limitless as long as he relies on his destructive mindset? or both? and how. Will his speed improve? his reaction? or will he use hakai for everything like Toppo did in the anime?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:06 pm

DiscountDabi wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:52 pm I see people confused as to how Granolah has all of these different Abilities from tons of other fighters. Simply put, you have to remember exactly what Granolah wished for and what the Dragon Said he would do.
Nobody is confused. At least I'm not.

My complaint is none of this is clearly laid out. What can he do? What can't he do? What are the rules governing this? Why doesn't he just use Moro's ki suck and beat them down while they have no energy? Why doesn't he use the Devilmite beam on Vegeta? Why doesn't he just turn them into candy and eat them? Whose powers are on the table for him, and whose aren't?

And let's take it a level beyond: why hasn't anyone else throughout the entire course of the series made this same fucking wish? Why won't anyone else do it in the future? I've said this many times by now, but this plot point ruins the entire story of Dragonball. You have to ignore it for everything before to still make any semblance of sense.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:25 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:15 am
UpFromTheSkies wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:24 am So I was re-reading the previous Granolah arc chapters and I got to the coveratation in chapter 69 between Beerus and Vegeta where Beerus asks Vegeta about the Saiyans past and how many planets they destroyed. Vegeta questions him about what that has to do with the hakai technique, and Beerus just says "Plenty" with no further explanation, and I think thus explains what's going on with Vegeta during the last few panels of the current chapter. Maybe to fully utilize hakai, he has to embrace his violent and destructive side, and bring out the old Vegeta that he's been suppressing all these years. Has anyone else thought of this?
It would be a proper progression for the character, being able to access that kind of mentality without getting caught up in it.

I still want to know what kind of power up hakai gives Vegeta... is he already stronger for using it, or does it make him limitless as long as he relies on his destructive mindset? or both? and how. Will his speed improve? his reaction? or will he use hakai for everything like Toppo did in the anime?
There are certainly a lot of possibilities about what they are doing with Vegeta. I definitely think they are calling back to his training with Beerus but in what way & how it will be used against Granolah remains to be seen

Vegeta’s attitude could just be used to get around Granolah’s eye. Vegeta certainly doesn’t have the UI advantage here. And while we all know Vegeta can be cocky and arrogant he must at least realize that Granolah’s precision puts him at a disadvantage. So maybe he is just trying to rile Granolah up to make him get sloppy. Even that would be interesting character progression for Vegeta since I think he has been on the other side of that himself many times where he let his arrogance and then frustration get the better of him.

I of course don’t believe they will actually let Vegeta win (the series has played that possibility one too many times for it to be believable). But I am hoping whatever they do with Vegeta brings his character forward and I would love if Vegeta could somehow get through to Granolah (though maybe it is too soon for that narratively speaking).

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:07 pm

What I reaaaaaally don't want is another training arc after Vegeta's L.
Last arc we had like 5 chapters worth of retread-improve-try again, wether that was good or bad isn't the issue but you can't keep using the same formula, specially back to back.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:15 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:07 pm What I reaaaaaally don't want is another training arc after Vegeta's L.
Last arc we had like 5 chapters worth of retread-improve-try again, wether that was good or bad isn't the issue but you can't keep using the same formula, specially back to back.
I agree! Also wish they would come up with something besides them taking turns as well

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:54 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:07 pm What I reaaaaaally don't want is another training arc after Vegeta's L.
Last arc we had like 5 chapters worth of retread-improve-try again, wether that was good or bad isn't the issue but you can't keep using the same formula, specially back to back.
That's been the formula through all of Dragon Ball. Fight, lose, train, win.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:45 pm

UpFromTheSkies wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:54 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:07 pm What I reaaaaaally don't want is another training arc after Vegeta's L.
Last arc we had like 5 chapters worth of retread-improve-try again, wether that was good or bad isn't the issue but you can't keep using the same formula, specially back to back.
That's been the formula through all of Dragon Ball. Fight, lose, train, win.
But Goku or the rest didn't train again after arriving to Namek, it happened in the android arc several times, but didn't have to do it again to fight the many Boo iterations. The story had other means to get them stronger like saiyan biology, magic, new techniques, power unlocks or fusion. It applies to DBS, too.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:41 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:45 pm
UpFromTheSkies wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:54 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:07 pm What I reaaaaaally don't want is another training arc after Vegeta's L.
Last arc we had like 5 chapters worth of retread-improve-try again, wether that was good or bad isn't the issue but you can't keep using the same formula, specially back to back.
That's been the formula through all of Dragon Ball. Fight, lose, train, win.
But Goku or the rest didn't train again after arriving to Namek, it happened in the android arc several times, but didn't have to do it again to fight the many Boo iterations. The story had other means to get them stronger like saiyan biology, magic, new techniques, power unlocks or fusion. It applies to DBS, too.
Goku trained before Namek, so it's basically the same pattern. He fought Radditz and lost, trained, fights Nappa and wins, fights Vegeta and loses, gets saved by his friends, trains on the way to Namek, wins against Freeza.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Tue Jun 22, 2021 7:26 pm

TKA wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:06 pm Nobody is confused. At least I'm not.

My complaint is none of this is clearly laid out. What can he do? What can't he do? What are the rules governing this?
I don't have complaints yet, just misgivings but my misgivings are the exact same as your complaints. Playing Devil's Advocate here: I think the vagueness of this is purposeful. I think they are laying out a mystery as to what abilities Granolah can access and (hopefully) how he would have acquired them in his lifespan. The plain answer is, he literally has access to any techniques that have existed in universe 7 ... but this can get woefully complex and Toyotaro and Toriyama-san don't have a strong track record when handling complex story concepts.

Why doesn't he just use Moro's ki suck and beat them down while they have no energy? Why doesn't he use the Devilmite beam on Vegeta? Why doesn't he just turn them into candy and eat them? Whose powers are on the table for him, and whose aren't?
Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh :shh: We mustn't ask such questions.
And let's take it a level beyond: why hasn't anyone else throughout the entire course of the series made this same fucking wish? Why won't anyone else do it in the future? I've said this many times by now, but this plot point ruins the entire story of Dragonball. You have to ignore it for everything before to still make any semblance of sense.
I had to let this go. If you get hung up on this then you might as well not read the rest of the arc. It's what I told myself, because the premise ... quite frankly insults the reader's intelligence. But there's some simple explanations for this within the narrative that could work. Admittedly, I put in more mental work than the story provided.

1. Z-Family is pretty dumb. We already know this at this point. It's clear as day with no-one making this wish and then not waiting and wishing for immortality or restored lifespan the next year. At least that's what we're led to believe.

2. Dragon Balls used to be difficult to find and collect. So there probably weren't many wishes until Bulma devised her radar.

3. Ego. Frieza and Piccolo Daimao thought they were hot shit already. Vegeta would want to gain the strength himself, hence why he only requesting infinite HP and not max LVL.

4. They needed more pressing things than strength. This goes for those who've had wishes we've never seen.

5. Granolah might be one of the few this wish would work for. Likely because Granolah has more latent potential than most beings in the universe. His long life span alone gives him a unique advantage over many other races. This wish wouldn't work for Krillin because his life span is shorter, possibly his potential too ... unless he wished for immortality first ... then the Dragon would simply explode :crazy:
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Tue Jun 22, 2021 7:39 pm

I see some downplaying Granolah's victory over Kakarott. The very fact that Goku had to use full power UI just to even defeat a Granolah clone, at half power, is insane. As a result, UI Goku's accuracy decreased, just from beating up illusion Granolah. Which means, his chances of even beating a full power Granolah, were incredibly slim to none.

Someone check for me...Is #prayforVegeta trending?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:17 pm

Miracles wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 7:39 pm I see some downplaying Granolah's victory over Kakarott. The very fact that Goku had to use full power UI just to even defeat a Granolah clone, at half power, is insane. As a result, UI Goku's accuracy decreased, just from beating up illusion Granolah. Which means, his chances of even beating a full power Granolah, were incredibly slim to none.

Someone check for me...Is #prayforVegeta trending?
No downplaying here, he won fair and square by exploiting weaknessess and using tactics.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:20 pm

Miracles wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 7:39 pm Someone check for me...Is #prayforVegeta trending?
welp. hope for the best, expect the worst!
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:32 pm

TKA wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:06 pm
DiscountDabi wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:52 pm I see people confused as to how Granolah has all of these different Abilities from tons of other fighters. Simply put, you have to remember exactly what Granolah wished for and what the Dragon Said he would do.
Nobody is confused. At least I'm not.

My complaint is none of this is clearly laid out. What can he do? What can't he do? What are the rules governing this? Why doesn't he just use Moro's ki suck and beat them down while they have no energy? Why doesn't he use the Devilmite beam on Vegeta? Why doesn't he just turn them into candy and eat them? Whose powers are on the table for him, and whose aren't?
As if Toriyama would remember some random OP hack technique he wrote for what amounted to a gag /j.

Y'know, I would like to get some answers for these concerns from the story, too. Too bad we have to wait a whole fcking month for each chapter to be released, leaving us in the dark for Kami-sama knows how long :crazy:
Even then, there is the unfortunate possibility that Tori/Toyo will...not explain it...
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:47 pm

Thani wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:17 pm
Miracles wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 7:39 pm I see some downplaying Granolah's victory over Kakarott. The very fact that Goku had to use full power UI just to even defeat a Granolah clone, at half power, is insane. As a result, UI Goku's accuracy decreased, just from beating up illusion Granolah. Which means, his chances of even beating a full power Granolah, were incredibly slim to none.

Someone check for me...Is #prayforVegeta trending?
No downplaying here, he won fair and square by exploiting weaknessess and using tactics.
Indeed. Like Granolah has been doing since the start of the fight.
PurestEvil wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:20 pm
Miracles wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 7:39 pm Someone check for me...Is #prayforVegeta trending?
welp. hope for the best, expect the worst!
I think Vegeta may outshine Goku here tho. He has new threads to show off. Still eventually takes an L.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:23 pm

UpFromTheSkies wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:24 am Maybe to fully utilize hakai, he has to embrace his violent and destructive side, and bring out the old Vegeta that he's been suppressing all these years. Has anyone else thought of this?
People have been arguing about the possibility that Vegeta is reproducing what Beerus did to him before, and that he's going to try to destabilize Granolah with those words (without actually being serious about the stuff he said)

However, perhaps there is the possibility that these words are not a fakeout after all, and this is just the result of his training. Since Beerus claims that Vegeta needs to maintain the destruction mindset to fully reproduce the power of a GoD, the time he spent on Beerus' planet may have changed Vegeta's previous view about regret and guilt for past events, and this could end up making Vegeta push Granolah too hard, disdaining his clan's death and turning him into the opposite of what he was before. In short, it changed Vegeta and made him closer to Beerus, which might make him regret it later, causing the need for him to find a better balance between getting rid of thoughts that just hold him back, but at the same time not totally changing the person he became when embracing the mindset mentioned by Beerus

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Ssgvegito30 » Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:45 pm

Miracles wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:47 pm
Thani wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:17 pm
Miracles wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 7:39 pm I see some downplaying Granolah's victory over Kakarott. The very fact that Goku had to use full power UI just to even defeat a Granolah clone, at half power, is insane. As a result, UI Goku's accuracy decreased, just from beating up illusion Granolah. Which means, his chances of even beating a full power Granolah, were incredibly slim to none.

Someone check for me...Is #prayforVegeta trending?
No downplaying here, he won fair and square by exploiting weaknessess and using tactics.
Indeed. Like Granolah has been doing since the start of the fight.
PurestEvil wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:20 pm
Miracles wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 7:39 pm Someone check for me...Is #prayforVegeta trending?
welp. hope for the best, expect the worst!
I think Vegeta may outshine Goku here tho. He has new threads to show off. Still eventually takes an L.
I highly doubt vegeta may take an L because of what granolahh said at the end of this chapter " I don't really care who dies 1st because if vegeta loses than granolah will kill them with out a second thought so, I believe either vegeta somehow will surprise granolah with what he learned through beerus training and after the fight will try to reason with granolah or if Granolah is about to win than maybe something will happen during the fight that granolah will have to stop fighting maybe the heaters will ressurect the dragon or maybe he will some how sense frieza's energy the fight between vegeta and granolah can go many ways I'm really curious to find out how this fight ends!
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DiscountDabi » Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:23 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:32 pm
TKA wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:06 pm
DiscountDabi wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:52 pm I see people confused as to how Granolah has all of these different Abilities from tons of other fighters. Simply put, you have to remember exactly what Granolah wished for and what the Dragon Said he would do.
Nobody is confused. At least I'm not.

My complaint is none of this is clearly laid out. What can he do? What can't he do? What are the rules governing this? Why doesn't he just use Moro's ki suck and beat them down while they have no energy? Why doesn't he use the Devilmite beam on Vegeta? Why doesn't he just turn them into candy and eat them? Whose powers are on the table for him, and whose aren't?
fAs if Toriyama would remember some random OP hack technique he wrote for what amounted to a gag /j.

Y'know, I would like to get some answers for these concerns from the story, too. Too bad we have to wait a whole fcking month for each chapter to be released, leaving us in the dark for Kami-sama knows how long :crazy:
Even then, there is the unfortunate possibility that Tori/Toyo will...not explain it...
The Fact that the chapters come out Once a Month is the biggest detriment to Dragon Ball Super right now. It made the Moro arc feel incredibly poorly paced when if you read it all in one go its not nearly as bad. And when you introduce concepts that later chapters harken back to you have to have a page or two to remind people of it because it happened 3 months ago. It also makes problems in the writing worse because we have to stew and think about the problem for a whole month.

Honestly I'd much rather get less chapter more often than continue with how it is now because I can't get properly invested in this story the way it is now. Hell, I'd take 28 pages every 15 days over 48 every month. It really is massive detriment and something Toyotaro just can't seem to get better at. Comparing him to Toriyama he draws 24 less pages per month than Toriyama Did when he was drawing 18 pages a week.

If this is the guy who's really gonna be Toriyama's Replacement he's gotta be able to draw faster without compromising the art.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Nistarkail » Wed Jun 23, 2021 2:59 am

TKA wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:06 pm
DiscountDabi wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:52 pm I see people confused as to how Granolah has all of these different Abilities from tons of other fighters. Simply put, you have to remember exactly what Granolah wished for and what the Dragon Said he would do.
Nobody is confused. At least I'm not.

My complaint is none of this is clearly laid out. What can he do? What can't he do? What are the rules governing this? Why doesn't he just use Moro's ki suck and beat them down while they have no energy? Why doesn't he use the Devilmite beam on Vegeta? Why doesn't he just turn them into candy and eat them? Whose powers are on the table for him, and whose aren't?

And let's take it a level beyond: why hasn't anyone else throughout the entire course of the series made this same fucking wish? Why won't anyone else do it in the future? I've said this many times by now, but this plot point ruins the entire story of Dragonball. You have to ignore it for everything before to still make any semblance of sense.
Because he absorbed so much information regarding power and knowledge that he's experimenting his power. He used a clone to study Goku and it's already enough if he used one of Moro's magic.

I hope that he can turn Frieza or Vegeta in a candy lol

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Aizamasu » Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:42 am

DiscountDabi wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:23 pm
PurestEvil wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:32 pm
TKA wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:06 pm

Nobody is confused. At least I'm not.

My complaint is none of this is clearly laid out. What can he do? What can't he do? What are the rules governing this? Why doesn't he just use Moro's ki suck and beat them down while they have no energy? Why doesn't he use the Devilmite beam on Vegeta? Why doesn't he just turn them into candy and eat them? Whose powers are on the table for him, and whose aren't?
fAs if Toriyama would remember some random OP hack technique he wrote for what amounted to a gag /j.

Y'know, I would like to get some answers for these concerns from the story, too. Too bad we have to wait a whole fcking month for each chapter to be released, leaving us in the dark for Kami-sama knows how long :crazy:
Even then, there is the unfortunate possibility that Tori/Toyo will...not explain it...
The Fact that the chapters come out Once a Month is the biggest detriment to Dragon Ball Super right now. It made the Moro arc feel incredibly poorly paced when if you read it all in one go its not nearly as bad. And when you introduce concepts that later chapters harken back to you have to have a page or two to remind people of it because it happened 3 months ago. It also makes problems in the writing worse because we have to stew and think about the problem for a whole month.

Honestly I'd much rather get less chapter more often than continue with how it is now because I can't get properly invested in this story the way it is now. Hell, I'd take 28 pages every 15 days over 48 every month. It really is massive detriment and something Toyotaro just can't seem to get better at. Comparing him to Toriyama he draws 24 less pages per month than Toriyama Did when he was drawing 18 pages a week.

If this is the guy who's really gonna be Toriyama's Replacement he's gotta be able to draw faster without compromising the art.
Toyotaro usually draws more panels per page than Toriyama did, so he doesn’t draw that much less per month than Toriyama did. And if I remember correctly the chapters in the original manga were usually about 15 pages so Toriyama drew 12 more pages per month but each page usually had less panels than Toyotaro’s.

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