"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[batistabus]

His Kaioshin also seems lacking.
I presume his hesitation let's civilizations that hold back the Universe around. At least Beerus has evil cleaning evil, shown by Freeza destroying Planet Vegeta. It's not hard to imagine that Saiyans sticking around would be worse. U7 probably wasn't last by chance.

Look at it this way. The problem with the Human Level scale, as well as with Zamasu to some extent, is that there is no accurate standard for measuring human value. There are Gods in the exempt universes that may work harder to improve their rating, but there's no guarantee that there are humans with as much strength or heart as Universe 7. In fact, the reactions of those gods in both the manga and anime speak to the contrary. It's a scale as unreliable as battle powers.

By many measures, you could argue that Earth is a planet that deserves destruction. If no individual is capable of judging the numerical value of humans, Beerus' whim is - at least - equal opportunity.

[Skar]

Yes, I too read the story. That's immaterial to the point. This is a fighting manga, and the fact that the worst universe won is the story telling you that the method that got it to the point of being the worst is the best. I don't see Zeno befriending any of the universes that didn't compete, nor do I see the manga giving any attention to them and their gods.

U7 won with the help of teamwork but the team was formed throughout the series due to Goku's actions. Goku befriended Zeno on his own and he was the reason Beerus spared the Earth. The Earth was in good shape but the overall universe had a low score was due to all the destruction caused before Goku was even born from Moro, Buu, and Freeza's army while Beerus didn't get involved. If it wasn't for Goku, the universe would've likely had a lower score and fewer planets remaining by the time Beerus woke up again.

[Sora Saiyan]

Yes, I too read the story. That's immaterial to the point. This is a fighting manga, and the fact that the worst universe won is the story telling you that the method that got it to the point of being the worst is the best. I don't see Zeno befriending any of the universes that didn't compete, nor do I see the manga giving any attention to them and their gods.

U7 won with the help of teamwork but the team was formed throughout the series due to Goku's actions. Goku befriended Zeno on his own and he was the reason Beerus spared the Earth. The Earth was in good shape but the overall universe had a low score was due to all the destruction caused before Goku was even born from Moro, Buu, and Freeza's army while Beerus didn't get involved. If it wasn't for Goku, the universe would've likely had a lower score and fewer planets remaining by the time Beerus woke up again.

Universe 7, and everything outside of Uni 11, which GP said was in the lead as usual, and Uni 12, which had rapid growth recently, were pretty much the same or declining. Goku must've helped stop decline by stopping these massive threats, especially Buu, but Uni 7s issues are a hard one to fix by the sound of it. At the end of the day Goku is the special one in Uni 7, as without him the universes were set to be destroyed without any battle taking place, the manga essentially shows us that Goku saved the universe by dumb luck, as he just so happened to turn up as his universe and the rest (outside of the top 4) were about the be destroyed. Goku was the hero of that story, our Universe only won due to his actions of befriending the old villains, its his special ability the Kaioshin mentioned in BoG after all.
Also I made a post on what is a GoDs job using the manga as reference a while ago which I will post in full again here.

What is it with this forum and the cerebral narcissism at times? Can we sometimes just accept we don't know enough to make definitive statements on certain things, such as this GoD argument, however there is enough evidence to get a pretty good idea.

Things we do know- We know they should destroy threats such as Buu, we know there is some mortal level which is never explained outright further. We therefore rely on a touch of guess work, and trying to fit some of the puzzle together as there job is never outright confirmed, however this doesn't mean that there isn't enough stuff in the manga that alludes to a GoDs job.
The mortal level in itself tells us that there is something the GoD and Kaioshin must follow to nurture and/or maintain a good universe. Gowasu tells us roughly what a Kaioshin is meant to do, and this in turn provides insight into what the mortal level likely is. Babari is the key here. Gowasu tells us that the Kaioshin exist to think of ways mortals can fix their issues when things go pear shaped. His joy at seeing the life advancing on Babari all but tells us that this planet is advancing in a way that it should be. Another thing to note is that strength has very little, to nothing to do with the mortal level of a world. Gowasu for example makes no mention of such, and Shin also states that he doesn't observe planets in terms of strength when they're looking for participants for the ToP. That's two Kaioshin we see doing their jobs who both show no signs of strength being a factor. This doesn't get contradicted when Beerus and Shin argue about the mortal ranking either. Sample size is of course small, but that's all we have to go on.
Sidra also confirms what Gowasu said about watching mortals and thinking of ways the mortals can fix it themselves, as when we see him doing his job and doing the calculations he states that "possibility of helping themselves 0%, effects on other planets if destroyed, none.". Sidra however is incompetent, and states that if he makes another mistake the grand priest will get angry, so he goes over the calculations again as to avoid a scolding. The fact a GoD can make a mistake therefore confirms that they have some rules to follow, which surely must be to not destroy a planet with a high mortal level. This also keeps a balance with the GoD and the Kaioshin.
Beerus appears to get by on dumb luck, or the fact he's always sleeping means he's had little chance to do tremendous damage. Or, good food is the key to a highly advanced race, so by dumb luck he's got by okay, and if he was awake to deal with threats Universe 7 would be the supreme universe.

[LightBing]

Look at it this way. The problem with the Human Level scale, as well as with Zamasu to some extent, is that there is no accurate standard for measuring human value. There are Gods in the exempt universes that may work harder to improve their rating, but there's no guarantee that there are humans with as much strength or heart as Universe 7. In fact, the reactions of those gods in both the manga and anime speak to the contrary. It's a scale as unreliable as battle powers.

By many measures, you could argue that Earth is a planet that deserves destruction. If no individual is capable of judging the numerical value of humans, Beerus' whim is - at least - equal opportunity.

But there is. We as the audience might not know the specifics but the characters whom this concerns do.
Sora Saiyan excellent post above summarizes all the mentions of this system and how being a Kaioshin and Hakaishin is a job.

Strength shouldn't factor at all since U7 level was raised not by winning ToP but for the wish itself.

[AndLad92]

On another note:

I'm calling it now, the spine art character on volume 17 is Zamasu. It looks like his hair is displaying a bit on volume 16, if you're taking a closer look:

https://ibb.co/YRnnQDQ

[SupremeKai25]

Yeah that's the edge of his mohawk. Plus Zamasu is the only person in the Cosmos that Black would look at with that smile.

[Skar]

Spoiler:

Universe 7, and everything outside of Uni 11, which GP said was in the lead as usual, and Uni 12, which had rapid growth recently, were pretty much the same or declining. Goku must've helped stop decline by stopping these massive threats, especially Buu, but Uni 7s issues are a hard one to fix by the sound of it. At the end of the day Goku is the special one in Uni 7, as without him the universes were set to be destroyed without any battle taking place, the manga essentially shows us that Goku saved the universe by dumb luck, as he just so happened to turn up as his universe and the rest (outside of the top 4) were about the be destroyed. Goku was the hero of that story, our Universe only won due to his actions of befriending the old villains, its his special ability the Kaioshin mentioned in BoG after all.
Also I made a post on what is a GoDs job using the manga as reference a while ago which I will post in full again here.

What is it with this forum and the cerebral narcissism at times? Can we sometimes just accept we don't know enough to make definitive statements on certain things, such as this GoD argument, however there is enough evidence to get a pretty good idea.

Things we do know- We know they should destroy threats such as Buu, we know there is some mortal level which is never explained outright further. We therefore rely on a touch of guess work, and trying to fit some of the puzzle together as there job is never outright confirmed, however this doesn't mean that there isn't enough stuff in the manga that alludes to a GoDs job.
The mortal level in itself tells us that there is something the GoD and Kaioshin must follow to nurture and/or maintain a good universe. Gowasu tells us roughly what a Kaioshin is meant to do, and this in turn provides insight into what the mortal level likely is. Babari is the key here. Gowasu tells us that the Kaioshin exist to think of ways mortals can fix their issues when things go pear shaped. His joy at seeing the life advancing on Babari all but tells us that this planet is advancing in a way that it should be. Another thing to note is that strength has very little, to nothing to do with the mortal level of a world. Gowasu for example makes no mention of such, and Shin also states that he doesn't observe planets in terms of strength when they're looking for participants for the ToP. That's two Kaioshin we see doing their jobs who both show no signs of strength being a factor. This doesn't get contradicted when Beerus and Shin argue about the mortal ranking either. Sample size is of course small, but that's all we have to go on.
Sidra also confirms what Gowasu said about watching mortals and thinking of ways the mortals can fix it themselves, as when we see him doing his job and doing the calculations he states that "possibility of helping themselves 0%, effects on other planets if destroyed, none.". Sidra however is incompetent, and states that if he makes another mistake the grand priest will get angry, so he goes over the calculations again as to avoid a scolding. The fact a GoD can make a mistake therefore confirms that they have some rules to follow, which surely must be to not destroy a planet with a high mortal level. This also keeps a balance with the GoD and the Kaioshin.
Beerus appears to get by on dumb luck, or the fact he's always sleeping means he's had little chance to do tremendous damage. Or, good food is the key to a highly advanced race, so by dumb luck he's got by okay, and if he was awake to deal with threats Universe 7 would be the supreme universe.

I think that makes sense. In completing universes with a higher score than U7, there was a reason why they were in a better shape overall. U11's strongest were a Superhero team protecting the universe. Despite Champa probably being as lazy as Beerus, his universe had an army of good Saiyans and the strongest being was an assassin who was occasionally hired to killed people.

U7 was lucky that a member of one of the strongest races hit his head and ended up encountering the biggest threats in the universe. For example, if they failed against Buu then there probably wouldn't have been much of a universe left by the time Beerus woke up in four years. The reason is why U7 only had one unskilled Kaioshin left who could barely handle his job was because they had to fight Buu themselves while Beerus was sleeping which almost indirectly killed Beerus. Who knows how long it would've been before another mortal became the GoD if Kid Buu managed to kill all the Kaioshin back then.

[kemuri07]

I Was discussing how this chapter made me feel about Vegeta, and while he didn't do as bad as I though it still bothered me because I know Goku is just gonna come in and win. And someone tried to argue that "Well Goku got taken out of the fight too. Its not like he's just gonna get up and wail on Granolah."

Well lets take a look at the track record

Goku fights beerus and loses, Vegeta comes in and gets nothing done, before Goku comes in to steal the spotlight
Goku fights Frieza and loses, Vegeta comes in and gets nothing done, before Goku comes in and steals the spotlight
Goku fights Jiren and Loses,Vegeta comes in and gets nothing done, before Goku comes in and steals the spotlight
Goku fights Moro and loses, Vegeta comes in and gets nothing done before Goku comes in and steals the spotlight
Goku fights Granolah and Loses, Vegeta comes in and gets nothing done...

Do you see the pattern here? The only arc that didn't go this way was the Goku Black arc. And thats only because the ending was WORSE.

Its just so predictable and bothersome.

But it's also Dragonball. Goku is the hero. I am of two minds of this. On the one hand, I do grow tired of Dragon Ball unable to move past its own issues, but I also don't want it to become something that it's not. Also your examples are not really taking into consideration context of what happens in each arc. Because you can do that with any anime.

The point is the journey, not so much the destination. We already know that Goku is going to come up with something out of his butt (AND IT SHALL BE BROLY'S FIST--probably). That's what Dragonball is. How it gets to that point is an open ended question, one we're no closer to answering. So yeah, I get that people want to discuss and that's fine. But do so recognizing that we don't where exactly this arc is going to go.

[EGonzo]

I think the problem Vegeta fans have with him losing is that the story keeps building him up to a victory, only to take it back. The biggest example was Moro, where most of the important character bits were about his "sins of the past" thing and asking for training and the multiple chapters showing hia training in Yardrat. The result? He accomplishes nothing, the story is in the same place as before he showed up.
So saying "Vegeta fanboys just want him to win all the time" is super disingenuous and completely ignores the real issue

[batistabus]

But there is. We as the audience might not know the specifics but the characters whom this concerns do.

Strength shouldn't factor at all since U7 level was raised not by winning ToP but for the wish itself.

You're prioritizing arbitrary lore over the story. The Human Level only exists to serve the larger plot and themes. In other words, the Human Level is a concept that is introduced so that Goku and friends can prove it wrong.

We don't even know what the Human Level measures. It's not strength (at least not entirely), but strength is of value in the Dragon Ball world. Does it measure well-being vs suffering? Is it the number of advanced societies? Is it the number of humans? No. 17 was able to raise U7's raking by making a selfless wish, but even then, the ranking seems to be based on judgement by the Great Priest. The angles aren't infallible or all-knowing. Goku surprised the Grand Priest during the Future Trunks arc, and he was proven wrong at the end of the ToP.

There are probably ways in which Universes with high scores are better places to live than Universe 7. That very well may be due to the hard work of the Gods of those Universes. Despite that, the story shows it's not an all-encompassing judgment of value.

U7 won with the help of teamwork but the team was formed throughout the series due to Goku's actions. Goku befriended Zeno on his own and he was the reason Beerus spared the Earth. The Earth was in good shape but the overall universe had a low score was due to all the destruction caused before Goku was even born from Moro, Buu, and Freeza's army while Beerus didn't get involved. If it wasn't for Goku, the universe would've likely had a lower score and fewer planets remaining by the time Beerus woke up again.

At the end of the day Goku is the special one in Uni 7, as without him the universes were set to be destroyed without any battle taking place, the manga essentially shows us that Goku saved the universe by dumb luck, as he just so happened to turn up as his universe and the rest (outside of the top 4) were about the be destroyed. Goku was the hero of that story, our Universe only won due to his actions of befriending the old villains, its his special ability the Kaioshin mentioned in BoG after all.

You can't say Goku doesn't count when he is a product of his universe. He was a low class child from a villainous species who surpassed the elites and saved the universe. He was raised on a planet of weaklings and rose to the level of gods. He owes the catalyst for his godly strength to Beerus. Universe 7 produced a team of unlikely champions in spite of - and thanks to - the factors that probably contribute to U7's low score.

[Skar]

You can't say Goku doesn't count when he is a product of his universe. He was a low class child from a villainous species who surpassed the elites and saved the universe. He was raised on a planet of weaklings and rose to the level of gods. He owes the catalyst for his godly strength to Beerus. Universe 7 produced a team of unlikely champions in spite of - and thanks to - the factors that probably contribute to U7's low score.

I agree with that but I think it's seperate from Beerus doing the job he was assigned to. It worked itself out in the end because Beerus ignoring these threats led to them encountering Goku and helping grow stronger and meet all his friends. I just meant that had Beerus done his job then U7 would've had far more inhabited planets and most of the Kaioshin still alive. U7 had a low score due to all the destruction caused before Goku was born so all his actions helped it from being even lower.

I also agree it's not meant to be an all-encompassing judgement of value. It's a score that I think averages that whole universe based on the performance of the Kaioshin and GoD but not necessarily meant to reflect individual planets or races. I think Earth and Namek would get a decent score thanks to Goku and his friends but the fate of other planets is out of their hands and not really their concern. These various threats were taken care of because Goku ran into them on Earth or Namek and he wasn't going out of his way to seek them out.

[HeroR]

On Toei’s official website during the TOP, it was outright said the four gods from the exempt universes were very careful about their destruction, worked along the Supreme Kais, and got rid of anything their deemed as impure. So they were harsh, but effective. That tells us this is the standard to be a good God of Destruction. And while U11 was in the hole, it was fifth best universe. So they were doing stuff right, but there were flaws in their system.

U7 is in the gutter because Beerus won’t do his job and Shin isn’t good at his job because all his mentor died. Which was also indirectly Beerus’ fault because Beerus is the one who should have killed Buu according to the manga. U6 is much the same since Champa would rather search for Super Dragon Balls over his job. This was even foreshadow when Zeno crash the first tournament. U9, is bottom of all with a corrupt and petty Supreme Kai and a timid God of Destruction.

[theherodjl]

So what are the predictions for the next chapter? IIRC, there is still a senzu left so will Vegeta take it and try another whack at Granolah? Or will Goku go for a round 2 with UI? Maybe Granolah will figure out UI after Goku blabs about how to obtain it in dire circumstances? What about Oatmeel? Is it actually a double agent for the Heaters?
What might we be looking at?

[caire]

So what are the predictions for the next chapter? IIRC, there is still a senzu left so will Vegeta take it and try another whack at Granolah? Or will Goku go for a round 2 with UI? Maybe Granolah will figure out UI after Goku blabs about how to obtain it in dire circumstances? What about Oatmeel? Is it actually a double agent for the Heaters?
What might we be looking at?

I quite like the suggestions that the Heeters will wish for intel, rather than strength, from the Dragon Balls. Of course that does leave the issue of Gas being hyped up though, but maybe they make another wish later on in the arc, as kind of a last-ditch attempt during the final fight?

I think it's going to be the beginning of the end for Monaito next chapter as well. Poor guy is inevitably going to get caught up the crossfire or something, or maybe attempt to talk Granola down, or come across the Heeters.

Oatmeel, I have no idea about. I don't get evil vibes from it at all though, it does seem to be the voice of reason and tbh I'd be really disappointed if DB went the classic "evil AI" trope (as much as I hate the term trope, that would be one). I suppose it could hijack 7-3's body, but tbh I hope that's not the case purely because it's quite amusing as just a goggle. The pages of it lying on the grass and having to summon Granolah's ship in order to storm off last chapter did get a chuckle from me, and plus it lends itself to some good scenes like the one with Soshiru (where he was expecting to find Granolah and instead discovered what's effectively a sentient piece of eyewear).

[Koitsukai]

So what are the predictions for the next chapter? IIRC, there is still a senzu left so will Vegeta take it and try another whack at Granolah? Or will Goku go for a round 2 with UI? Maybe Granolah will figure out UI after Goku blabs about how to obtain it in dire circumstances? What about Oatmeel? Is it actually a double agent for the Heaters?
What might we be looking at?

I wouldn't give Geets the silver medal just yet... surprisingly he is still in his Lego form, after all that damage taken and eating his own attack I thought he'd be in his base form, ready to go to bed.
But I think Goku will get a second round, if there's still a senzu left, he'll take it and fight Granola but now without wasting energy trying every single form first. Although, I think we had enough fighting for now, and it's time to move the plot forward with the Bojack gang. So maybe the saiyans will team up to take Granola down.
I think whatever fight takes place, will be interrumpted by the dragon being summoned. The cliffhanger will be the Heaters' wish(like with Moro) or that they are about to ask for it.

[kemuri07]

I think the problem Vegeta fans have with him losing is that the story keeps building him up to a victory, only to take it back. The biggest example was Moro, where most of the important character bits were about his "sins of the past" thing and asking for training and the multiple chapters showing hia training in Yardrat. The result? He accomplishes nothing, the story is in the same place as before he showed up.
So saying "Vegeta fanboys just want him to win all the time" is super disingenuous and completely ignores the real issue

But that's how Shounen works. In this case. It's more important to showcase Vegeta's transformation (both physical and mentally) as a disciple of Beerus. That is important to the overall story this arc is telling. To simply say that the only way Vegeta would matter if he wins battles simplifies this to the most hollow, lowest common denominator storytelling where your favorite character always wins. (again: See Dragon Ball Super Heroes)

[PurestEvil]

(again: See Dragon Ball Super Heroes)

But that film isn’t even out yet!

[kemuri07]

(again: See Dragon Ball Super Heroes)

But that film isn’t even out yet!

YOU KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!!!

[TKA]

This isn't competition. No character has a spotlight and no character steals a spotlight. It's a story. Maybe it's not the story you wish it is, but analyzing a story by what your favorite characters are doing or not doing is limited in scope.

[Miracles]

Well Goku seems to be able to heal himself. Vegeta can take a Senzu bean. Maybe they finally drop their pride and fight Granolah together, like Goku suggested at the start?

Now that Granolah has both eye's opened I think it would be wise for both of them to go at him at once.