"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

Geekdom is lazy... He doesn’t think things through like I do! He just wants to make dragon ball content for YouTube so he can make money.

I don’t know who this person is, but this is very cringe to read at and disrespectful. I was about to reply to your post above, but you are clearly not interested in having a conversation with anyone in this sub.

[Dragono]

I don't understand the confusion.

Ultra Instinct was always a technique treated like a transformation.

[TobyS]

Geekdom is posting fake news and misinformation again.
(At best it’s unconfirmed rumors stated as fact)

He’s saying that Goku’s new “Base State” is only at “Omen” Level, as opposed to what Whis clearly stated is that it was MUI’s full “technique” (at least) in Base..!

Even if you DO believe that the silver haired version makes Goku “stronger”, you believe that, because you still believe that the transformation itself is a “power boost” where you get stronger ki.. (I personally don’t believe that is the case, as you all know my stance on it by now) but that doesn’t matter in this case at all, as I was just trying to make a point here.

And that’s different from what Geekdom is falsely claiming here.

Geekdom falsely claims that Goku’s new Base form has a level of “technique” only equal to the lowly evolved “Omen” stage of Ultra Instinct... Which is downright disrespectful and pathetic! Obviously after all this training (and mastering the REAL Ultra Instinct) Goku’s technique is now MUCH better than the Sign/Omen’s version of UI!

I’m getting real tired of Geekdom these days.. I have to correct everything these YouTubers say and constantly have to play “Policeman” because they fuck up every single time because they can’t think critically it seems.

Whis clearly said to Goku that he needs to master “UI” in Base.. (UI is the silver haired version! Not the black haired version which is not UI but UI “Sign”).

Now you can still believe that the transformation makes Goku stronger afterwards.. (That doesn’t change my point here, and has no barring on it whatsoever.)

We’re talking purely about the accuracy of the technique itself here!

Geekdom is lazy... He doesn’t think things through like I do! He just wants to make dragon ball content for YouTube so he can make money.

You absolutely don't have to play policeman.

You can just leave lying nerds on YouTube to be wrong.

People will always spread misinformation about DB because most fans are idiots.

The amount of times I see “I think I read an interview with Akira that said [total bullshit]”

[Grimlock]

Just saw that Toyotaro specified when the Saiyans assault happened, it was fifty years ago (assuming the translation is correct, that is):

AGE 781 - 50 = AGE 731.

That means the Saiyans attacked their planet three years before Freeza shows up. One year before Vegeta's birth year too. We might actually see more of King Cold, if he was involved in this situation too.

[Xeogran]

We might actually see more of King Cold, if he was involved in this situation too.

He'll probably just stand there with his arms crossed as always
Kami forbidd we ever get to see King Cold in action

[GalaxyBusterBuu]

We might actually see more of King Cold, if he was involved in this situation too.

He'll probably just stand there with his arms crossed as always
Kami forbidd we ever get to see King Cold in action

Has he every done anything relevant on screen? I don't remember...

[Kinokima]

Just saw that Toyotaro specified when the Saiyans assault happened, it was fifty years ago (assuming the translation is correct, that is):

AGE 781 - 50 = AGE 731.

That means the Saiyans attacked their planet three years before Freeza shows up. One year before Vegeta's birth year too. We might actually see more of King Cold, if he was involved in this situation too.

So if this is the case why is Granolah so upset at Freeza ?

[Miracles]

Wait isn't MUI a form or a technique? Or is it both? I can't tell. Can someone explain this to me?

In Dragonball, it's both. Since even the Super Saiyan form is considered a technique too.

Spoiler:

Chapter 340 (DBZ 146), P13.4-5, P14.1
Context: after Goku transforms into a Super Saiyan
No.20: “I see…You seem to have achieved a truly considerable power-up. It’s a strange technique…This greatly surpasses our calculated figures…”
No.20: “However, this isn’t anything great enough to give us reason to fear. It’s still within a level which even No.19 is more than capable of defeating, and naturally that goes for myself as well…”

From Kanzenshuu's "strength checker" thread...

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=15488

Also In BoG movie...

Spoiler:

[GalaxyBusterBuu]

Just saw that Toyotaro specified when the Saiyans assault happened, it was fifty years ago (assuming the translation is correct, that is):

AGE 781 - 50 = AGE 731.

That means the Saiyans attacked their planet three years before Freeza shows up. One year before Vegeta's birth year too. We might actually see more of King Cold, if he was involved in this situation too.

So if this is the case why is Granolah so upset at Freeza ?

Since Cold isn't around he probably figures the best way to get revenge is by getting back at Freeza. Probably revenge by proxy since Cold is long gone and Freeza is his kid so he's just directing his rage at him since he doesn't have anyone else to blame.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Just saw that Toyotaro specified when the Saiyans assault happened, it was fifty years ago (assuming the translation is correct, that is)

Spoiler:

Granolah definitely says '50' in Chapter 71.

However, in Chapter 69, he says the planet belonged to the Cerealians "40 long years ago", and he also considers wishing for things to be how they were 50 years ago (presumably pre-destruction), so he's perhaps the assault itself was somewhere between 40 and 50 years ago, and he's speaking in basic rounded terms both times? Something like 45 years would get us to AGE 736, which would line up with Granolah saying the Saiyans were destroyed "not too long after" they destroyed the Cerealians.

[Grimlock]

He'll probably just stand there with his arms crossed as always
Kami forbidd we ever get to see King Cold in action

If it was Toriyama handling it, yeah. I wouldn't get my hopes up even in the slightest. But since it's Toyotaro, who knows?

So if this is the case why is Granolah so upset at Freeza ?

One of the questions I'm looking forward to see if Toyotaro will answer. He shouldn't know about Freeza at all.

However, in Chapter 69, he says the planet belonged to the Cerealians "40 long years ago", and he also considers wishing for things to be how they were 50 years ago (presumably pre-destruction), so he's perhaps the assault itself was somewhere between 40 and 50 years ago, and he's speaking in basic rounded terms both times? Something like 45 years would get us to AGE 736, which would line up with Granolah saying the Saiyans were destroyed "not too long after" they destroyed the Cerealians.

Well, if these "Cerelians" are the original inhabitants of the planet, then I don't think it would matter that he said "40 years ago", any number you say would be true, he could've said anything: "the planet belonged to Cerelians 20/40/50/60 years ago", it would be the truth, the planet belongs to them since they were there already. I think the "50 years ago" is the actual number of the assault itself.

Honestly, I hope you're not right. I prefer having precise information, rather than to keep assuming, dealing with vagueness or rounding up this huge gap. One way we will know for sure is whether Freeza or King Cold is involved. If Freeza shows up, then you're right, the assault happened at some point during that decade (which would serve to explain how this Granolah knows about Freeza).

(Also because it's kinda weird that he would round up such a big event. It's not like we say in real life that the World Wars "happened at some point". No, we know and say the specific years that those wars took place. It's also one of the reasons why I believe this "50 years ago" is the precise number).

[DiscountDabi]

He'll probably just stand there with his arms crossed as always
Kami forbidd we ever get to see King Cold in action

If it was Toriyama handling it, yeah. I wouldn't get my hopes up even in the slightest. But since it's Toyotaro, who knows?

So if this is the case why is Granolah so upset at Freeza ?

One of the questions I'm looking forward to see if Toyotaro will answer. He shouldn't know about Freeza at all.

However, in Chapter 69, he says the planet belonged to the Cerealians "40 long years ago", and he also considers wishing for things to be how they were 50 years ago (presumably pre-destruction), so he's perhaps the assault itself was somewhere between 40 and 50 years ago, and he's speaking in basic rounded terms both times? Something like 45 years would get us to AGE 736, which would line up with Granolah saying the Saiyans were destroyed "not too long after" they destroyed the Cerealians.

Well, if these "Cerelians" are the original inhabitants of the planet, then I don't think it would matter that he said "40 years ago", any number you say would be true, he could've said anything: "the planet belonged to Cerelians 20/40/50/60 years ago", it would be the truth, the planet belongs to them since they were there already. I think the "50 years ago" is the actual number of the assault itself.

Honestly, I hope you're not right. I prefer having precise information, rather than to keep assuming, dealing with vagueness or rounding up this huge gap. One way we will know for sure is whether Freeza or King Cold is involved. If Freeza shows up, then you're right, the assault happened at some point during that decade (which would serve to explain how this Granolah knows about Freeza).

(Also because it's kinda weird that he would round up such a big event. It's not like we say in real life that the World Wars "happened at some point". No, we know and say the specific years that those wars took place. It's also one of the reasons why I believe this "50 years ago" is the precise number).

I’m thinking its 40 years for one reason. If it was 50 years, based on what we know Granola would have been an Infant and couldn’t have remembered his people.

Maki mentioned how Cerealians live for like 200 years, and Granolah Confirms and says he sacrificed his remaining 150 years of his life with three years to spare. Meaning he’s 47 years old. If it was 50 years ago he would have been 3 years old. He could not have remembered it that as well as he does at that age.


It being 40 years ago makes sense as he would have been 7 years old and could have remembered the Saiyans.

Edit: This would mean his planet was attacked in age 740, which is what the Dragon Ball Wiki Says so at least someone else thinks so

[DiscountDabi]

I spent too much time thinking about this but the only year that makes sense for Planet Cereal to be attacked, Granolah to be old enough to remember it, and have Saiyans still be around to do it is in Age 737 a few months before Frieza destroyed Vegeta.

Granolah would have been 4 years old at the time but he could remember. The Saiyans would be there but wiped out soon after.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Well, if these "Cerelians" are the original inhabitants of the planet, then I don't think it would matter that he said "40 years ago", any number you say would be true, he could've said anything: "the planet belonged to Cerelians 20/40/50/60 years ago", it would be the truth, the planet belongs to them since they were there already. I think the "50 years ago" is the actual number of the assault itself.

That's certainly possible - it may be that, in the context of the conversation, Granolah might be indicating that the Suga-jin purchased Planet Cereal from the Heeters around 40 years ago, in which case the planet would have lain derelict for about a decade after the assault. There's nothing against that interpretation, except perhaps for the Heeters waiting that long to recoup their investment.

Honestly, I hope you're not right. I prefer having precise information, rather than to keep assuming, dealing with vagueness or rounding up this huge gap. One way we will know for sure is whether Freeza or King Cold is involved. If Freeza shows up, then you're right, the assault happened at some point during that decade (which would serve to explain how this Granolah knows about Freeza).

I agree with you on preferring precision, but Dragon Ball Super has been pretty cagey about the passage of time so far - presumably because they want to leave some wiggle room for telling stories without pinning themselves down too hard on how much time is left for the series to cover. In the Tournament of Power arc, for instance, Mr. Satan merely said that the Cell Game was "over 10 years ago", when we should be looking at more like 13 or 14, properly speaking, which is a pretty significant rounding.

However, though Dragon Ball Super: Broly messed up on how long ago the events of its First Act took place, it did nevertheless establish that Freeza took control of the Cold Force 5 years before he destroyed the Saiyans, which would be c. AGE 732; if the Saiyans attacked Planet Cereal almost immediately after Freeza took over, this would just about line up with Granolah saying it happened 50 years ago (if you count back 50 from 781, including that year, rather than just subtracting 50, then you get to 732) and justify him having a special grudge against Freeza personally. It would also mean the Heeters were in league with Freeza personally from pretty much the moment of his accession to power, which would be an interesting extra little detail to infer.

I’m thinking its 40 years for one reason. If it was 50 years, based on what we know Granola would have been an Infant and couldn’t have remembered his people.

Maki mentioned how Cerealians live for like 200 years, and Granolah Confirms and says he sacrificed his remaining 150 years of his life with three years to spare. Meaning he’s 47 years old. If it was 50 years ago he would have been 3 years old. He could not have remembered it that as well as he does at that age.

Maki does only say that Granolah is "around 50" and Cerealians like for "like two centuries", so there's some wiggle room for a young Granolah remembering the assault. I don't think we need to press the maths quite that closely.

[TBMx]

Goku is better at Hakai than Vegeta even now. Why? Because he landed a partial Hakai on a RESISTING strong opponent. Vegeta just Hakaied logs and rocks and part of a hill. All inanimate objects that can't resist. Its analogous to the difference between destroying a rock with regular ki (something even early DB Krillin could do) vs Destroying part of a Super Saiyan Blue. Something that only very few of the strongest characters who ever lived could do.

Goku now is better than Vegeta at Hakai even after Vegeta's Hakai training, based on what we've seen so far.

[Kinokima]

Goku is better at Hakai than Vegeta even now. Why? Because he landed a partial Hakai on a RESISTING strong opponent. Vegeta just Hakaied logs and rocks and part of a hill. All inanimate objects that can't resist. Its analogous to the difference between destroying a rock with regular ki (something even early DB Krillin could do) vs Destroying part of a Super Saiyan Blue. Something that only very few of the strongest characters who ever lived could do.

Goku now is better than Vegeta at Hakai even after Vegeta's Hakai training, based on what we've seen so far.

And based on what the chapter actually said this is not the case. Goku did the Hakai incorrectly so he is not better at it. I am just going to take the word of the what the story is actually saying. Imitating Hakai is not Hakai . What Goku did against Zamasu was pretty cool but it was not Hakai just an imitation. There is obviously more to it which is what the story is telling us.

And Hakai is not just using Ki to break something. They literally just said this in the previous chapter. Vegeta could destroy an entire planet already as well. He could do that as far back in the Saiyan arc. But that doesn’t mean he was able to use the Hakai technique.

And yes he is starting out small because that is the point to start with the basics not to rush, to learn to do it 100%. It is meant to be the opposite of what Granolah did.


Also the story never stated that Hakai is more difficult against someone who is not an inanimate object. Again that is something you just made up to say Goku is somehow better at Hakai than Vegeta which the story has not actually said.

[TBMx]

And based on what the chapter actually said this is not the case. Goku did the Hakai incorrectly so he is not better at it. I am just going to take the word of the what the story is actually saying. Imitating Hakai is not Hakai . What Goku did against Zamasu was pretty cool but it was not Hakai just an imitation. There is obviously more to it which is what the story is telling us.

He got better results than what Vegeta has achieved so far. If results isnt the standard by which success is measured what is? Someone simply saying so?

And Hakai is not just using Ki to break something. They literally just said this in the previous chapter. Vegeta could destroy an entire planet already as well. He could do that as far back in the Saiyan arc. But that doesn’t mean he was able to use the Hakai technique.

Who cares? The point is to win fights isn't it? How does Hakai make him win fights any easier if he can already blow up whole solar systems?

Also the story never stated that Hakai is more difficult against someone who is not an inanimate object. Again that is something you just made up to say Goku is somehow better at Hakai than Vegeta which the story has not actually said.

So Grand Priest can be Hakai'd just as easily as a rock? You don't think the story's established thats not the case? Wow. Are you reading the same manga I am?

[GodVegetto91]

Goku is better at Hakai than Vegeta even now. Why? Because he landed a partial Hakai on a RESISTING strong opponent. Vegeta just Hakaied logs and rocks and part of a hill. All inanimate objects that can't resist. Its analogous to the difference between destroying a rock with regular ki (something even early DB Krillin could do) vs Destroying part of a Super Saiyan Blue. Something that only very few of the strongest characters who ever lived could do.

Goku now is better than Vegeta at Hakai even after Vegeta's Hakai training, based on what we've seen so far.

Actually managing to erase several objects from existence > about to turn a target into sand that even failed halfway through aswell!

I think it’s clear who the superior Hakai user is here.

Leaving totally nothing/void > Unable to even reduce a target to sand lol

[Kinokima]

He got better results than what Vegeta has achieved so far. If results isnt the standard by which success is measured what is? Someone simply saying so?

What do you mean he got better results? Please show me where Vegeta tried to Hakai a God to compare to Goku (though actually according to Beerus a God cannot be Hakai’d)

Vegeta is starting small because he is trying to utilize the technique CORRECTLY. That is the whole point of training. And the technique as we are learning has differing applications beyond just destroying a big object or some powerful being completely from existence which you seem fixated on.

Whatever Goku did might have looked like Hakai but it was not Hakai. So no Goku did not do it better than Vegeta.

So Grand Priest can be Hakai'd just as easily as a rock? You don't think the story's established thats not the case? Wow. Are you reading the same manga I am

No the problem is you aren’t reading the manga. It’s the same with the other thread. You literally just make up things.

And I am pretty sure you cannot use Hakai against the Grand Priest so it’s a pretty dumb point to being with.

[Cipher]

One of the questions I'm looking forward to see if Toyotaro will answer. He shouldn't know about Freeza at all.

He’s been interacting with the broader space underworld as a bounty hunter for decades now. Freeza was a big player and it’s not like his employment of the Saiyans was a secret.

If he wasn’t aware before the Saiyans came to Cereal, he likely would have been shortly after.