"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by theherodjl » Mon Aug 29, 2022 6:41 am

I'm wondering, is "Black Freeza" actually even a new form? Because Freeza has the ability to change the color of his evolution so is it a case of him simply dropping the golden coloring to a newer, sleek black therefore; Black Freeza = Golden Freeza, just with Freeza having a lot more power as a result of training for 10 years?
On a side note, I think Freeza may have also chosen to have a black form to take a shot at Goku's 'white' of Perfected Ultra Instinct.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by MCDaveG » Mon Aug 29, 2022 9:54 am

I dunno... I always took Saiyans and their transformations with recent Z/Super Magenta, Blue, Silver as part of Saiyan physiology.
Somehow, since SSJ, when they unlock a significant power up, their bodies change for whatever reason, into whatever look.
A similar mechanic to grow into an ape, because of moon waves... that was my headcanon (let me know, if there is some explanation).

But Freeza Black and Gold, if he is able to pick the colors, that's kinda weird... but whatever, we have Orange Piccolo now, but still that was kinda "natural".

Won't Black Freeza look a lot like Frost?

I seriously wonder what's next in the crazy Super manga and if next transformation for the sake of transformation will be at least more daring and interesting.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Aug 29, 2022 9:58 am

I'm afraid Freeza might look a lot like Frost, too, and I already dislike Frost's design. It looks dry and boring.

I really wanted Black Freeza to be completely black, like Metal Cooler but black. Maybe the purple and the black will detour him a bit from Frost, I'd like to see it coloured by non-fans.

It seems to be Freeza just getting stronger and adapting his body to a new colour. If it were a new form, his body probably would change like with his previous forms, I think.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Galan007 » Mon Aug 29, 2022 11:30 am

"Achieving this form took plenty of toil, I'll have you know."

Imo, this implies that Black Freeza is indeed a completely new form that he attained via a decade of training, and not just him switching the color of his Golden form.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by theherodjl » Tue Aug 30, 2022 5:27 am

Galan007 wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 11:30 am "Achieving this form took plenty of toil, I'll have you know."

Imo, this implies that Black Freeza is indeed a completely new form that he attained via a decade of training, and not just him switching the color of his Golden form.
It could still be the recolored golden form, just an upgraded variant of it akin to SSJ Grades 2-4. True Golden Freeza could have just 'Grade 2' while Black Freeza is 'Grade 3' or 'Grade 4'.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by MCDaveG » Tue Aug 30, 2022 6:20 am

Who knows how the mechanics for Freeza work now.
We know that his sleek form is actually an original form and the three forms before were a step-back transformation to conserve his huge power, which is weird kind off, but that is an explanation coming from Toriyama... I wonder how Cold fits into this. We can only wonder.

Now we have a Freeza in his sleek form, ditching the 100% buff and instead having his own Super Saiyan like form, which probably triggers changes in his appearance the same way as with Saiyans.

But based on the manga, yes, Black Freeza is a new form and Freeza trained in his own version of Room Of Spirit and Time to attain it.

Personally, I would prefer some more drastic changes than just recolors. Cooler was designed by Toriyama on what I presume is the basis, that Freeza race's transformation pattern changes their body characteristics in more drastic ways, with basically Freeza reverting back and his sleek body form being enclosed in some type of bio armor - with Cooler again - growing bio armor in his final form for some reason.
With Golden Freeza, it kinda looks visually, like his body is hardening in places and is basically golden coated in some biological fantasy way.
How Black Freeza fits into this, I have no idea and basically my whole post besides Toriyama intel is pure speculation.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Tue Aug 30, 2022 7:08 am

Since his forms all seems to be manipulated by himself. I'm going to assume Black Freeza is the same.

Freeza is different from everyone since he doesn't have "genetical transformations" like the Saiyans. He just "crafts" a new body to handle the energy output.

It's possible he could have made Black Freeza into something grotesque like his Third Form but out-of-universe, keeping the most recognizable aspect while giving it a new paint makes more sense.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Wed Aug 31, 2022 11:59 pm

I just reread the Granolah arc. I think I like it more than before. Everything comes together nicely. I forgot how many great things happened. I thought it felt funnier when read straight through. Toyotaro's art reads extremely well throughout the arc.

I've come to really like the wish. I mentioned before that it feels like a truly consequential wish, and that all of the restrictions placed on the Dragon Ball since the beginning of the series (as to not break the story) have only served to diminish their appeal for the reader. What unfolds is essentially an informal tournament to sort out who is the strongest in the universe.

I think it starts to drag a bit around Chapter 84. Vegeta does the same thing against Gas that he did against Granolah and it fails in a similar way. That's something I didn't mind as much when reading month-to-month (even though I recognized it) but bothered me more when marathoned. I still think the reason for the pacing is due to the delay of Super Hero, but overall, it's not as bad like this.

Bardock's message is still a bit muddy, but I actually liked Bardock's portion of the story more. Some have said that Bardock didn't deserve a full monthly manga chapter, which I would have agreed with during serialization, but I think it reads like a fairly entertaining one-shot. I viewed Bardocks wish as much less ambiguous this time; a straight-forward reading fits better with the rest of the story (I think).

I liked Gas more as well. I think Elec does have love for Gas, but it's very conditional. So...that's not love in my book, but I think it works since the Heatas (all of them) are assholes. And although I still don't love Oil, his role (as the tech guy) was more obvious and it felt like he at least had a purpose (even if it wasn't very interesting).

I thought Granolah's journey was clear before, but it's crystal clear like this. Monaito's evolution (starting with the flashback) is easier to trace.

The finale is still fantastic.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by MCDaveG » Thu Sep 01, 2022 5:10 am

We give Toyo a lot of slack of not having fewer story frames with more impact like Toriyama, but at least, it reads fine.
In comparison to One Piece for example, which is to me visually incomprehensible and hard to follow as I tried to switch to it from anime, same as I did with Naruto and that kinda killed the One Piece series for me.

Also, do you guys think, when disregarding anime altogether and reading just the original and Super manga - is it good and worthy succesor? How does it read sfter the original?
I am currently thinking purchasing the Super manga and put it next to the classic one on my shelf, my gripes are only with it skipping ROF arc and Broly.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Geraldo » Thu Sep 01, 2022 9:59 am

MCDaveG wrote: I am currently thinking purchasing the Super manga and put it next to the classic one on my shelf, my gripes are only with it skipping ROF arc and Broly.
As someone who never purchased any of the mangas but was twice close to buy the original manga at the same store while visiting overseas shortly before and during the pandemic, I'll tell you that Toyotaro doesn't need to draw everything. Especially if these movies had been drawn with high quality and retold in a lesser quality in the anime.

I'd rather him doing his job as best as he possibly can with work-life balance and not get into a nervous breakdown due to it.

I just hope the ones who led him tell the stories after the Tournament of Power so badly will be fired ASAP. Unless I'm leaving this franchise behind for good. They stretched stuff (mostly non important details or battles/stages) for too damn long, till you wanted to fly to Japan and kick them in the face. Must be the work of 50-yet-dumb "utter defeat" Uchida.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Thu Sep 01, 2022 10:10 am

MCDaveG wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 5:10 am Also, do you guys think, when disregarding anime altogether and reading just the original and Super manga - is it good and worthy succesor? How does it read sfter the original?
I am currently thinking purchasing the Super manga and put it next to the classic one on my shelf, my gripes are only with it skipping ROF arc and Broly.
Although the change in illustrator is obvious and maybe even jarring, especially if you're in the weeds of production, I've always thought the DBS manga felt as if it were in the same world as the original manga (where, for me, the DBS anime never did). I think this is particularly the case when reading the physical volumes. So if you accept DBS for what it is (a sequel series that doesn't need to exist where the original author isn't invested enough to draw it himself), I think it'd be a fine addition to a manga-laden book shelf.

There's no workaround for DBS:Broly, but...(I'll DM you).

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:44 pm

For the most part, I will echo what batistabus said. Out of everything in the Dragon Ball franchise that doesn't have Toriyama at the fore, nothing understands the intricacies of Toriyama's humor, pacing, subversion, and characterization quite like the first three arcs of the DBS manga. I'll be the first to say that the Granolah arc is genuinely terrible and almost as un-DB as DB gets, just like the anime, but that and (kind of) the Moro arc are exceptions for now — it's otherwise about as worthwhile an inconsequential midquel as you can expect. You can read the series alongside the modern DB films and it won't feel drastically different. I suspect a lot of that is due to Toriyama's heavier involvement.

I'd recommend collecting up until Volume 9, and then going beyond only if you're a superfan of Toyotaro's style and work. If you can mentally isolate it from expectations surrounding the anime and its "spotlights" or "hype" moments, I think you'll find yourself pleasantly surprised and entertained.
MCDaveG wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 5:10 am In comparison to One Piece for example, which is to me visually incomprehensible and hard to follow as I tried to switch to it from anime, same as I did with Naruto and that kinda killed the One Piece series for me.
That's because One Piece's post-timeskip art, paneling and storytelling have increasingly become so messy and bloated that it's barely comprehensible now. That's a shame because it used to be one of my favorite series over a decade ago, though I can say with confidence that DBS doesn't share that problem.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Sun Sep 04, 2022 11:35 am

MCDaveG wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 5:10 am We give Toyo a lot of slack of not having fewer story frames with more impact like Toriyama, but at least, it reads fine.
In comparison to One Piece for example, which is to me visually incomprehensible and hard to follow as I tried to switch to it from anime, same as I did with Naruto and that kinda killed the One Piece series for me.

Also, do you guys think, when disregarding anime altogether and reading just the original and Super manga - is it good and worthy succesor? How does it read sfter the original?
I am currently thinking purchasing the Super manga and put it next to the classic one on my shelf, my gripes are only with it skipping ROF arc and Broly.
I echo others here. The shift in author/artist is obvious, but taken for what it is as an optional sequel, it still feels like part of the same world. You can go Boo arc to Jaco/Neko Majin to Super and feel like it’s all still DB.

You need the movies alongside it, but it isn’t the first series to ever require some alongside theatrical viewing.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by obiwan23s » Wed Sep 07, 2022 12:51 pm

I really hope that the next arc ties back into the part from Battle of Gods where its mentioned that Beerus had Freeza destroy Planet Vegeta for him. I could see late in the fight, Freeza is getting overwhelmed, maybe by UI/UE tag team, Broly joining the fight or a fusion. This is a trump card he can play because he knows how much the Saiyans hate him for what he did. What if he could rightfully direct their anger toward Beerus instead?

It would also support the build up toward a final showdown with Beerus and Whis. I've always felt their role in the story to be building them up as potential final bosses, especially Whis whose true power is still a mystery other than we know he's an angel and uses some form of UI.

If Freeza is to die again, permanently this time, I hope it's Vegeta who gets to finish him.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by theherodjl » Wed Sep 07, 2022 3:11 pm

Freeza has already died twice and experienced his own hell for years so maybe his final fate should be one worse than yet another death that results in being subjected to watching cute, little creatures be happy. Like perhaps Freeza is reduced to an absolutely powerless state but also isn't able to die, an ironic inverse of his original wish to become immortal that has him losing everything that made him powerful to begin with. Vegeta could even take pity on him and refuse to hakai him out of existence, preferring to see Freeza live out to the end of the universe as a total weakling who has to fend for peace from stronger beings.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Wed Sep 07, 2022 5:13 pm

obiwan23s wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 12:51 pmWhat if he could rightfully direct their anger toward Beerus instead?
People who throw this idea around are people who just don't get the tone of Dragonball in any sense of the word.

If it gets brought up, the characters will shrug it off. Vegeta was told that the Saiyans were killed by Frieza and his reaction was "eh, I don't care lol" and then he killed Dodoria. When Goku was told about the fate of the saiyans, it meant nothing to him because they were just marauding monsters who he had no connection to.

Them being told Beerus did this 50 years ago would, at best, result in "Wow, that's wild. Anyway."

Any other reaction is bad writing. Especially from Vegeta, who doesn't seem to mind much that Beerus humiliated his father.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Wed Sep 07, 2022 6:01 pm

TKA wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 5:13 pm
obiwan23s wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 12:51 pmWhat if he could rightfully direct their anger toward Beerus instead?
People who throw this idea around are people who just don't get the tone of Dragonball in any sense of the word.

If it gets brought up, the characters will shrug it off.
Beerus himself tells Vegeta about this at the beginning of the Granolah arc.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Thu Sep 08, 2022 7:25 pm

Cipher wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 6:01 pm
TKA wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 5:13 pm
obiwan23s wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 12:51 pmWhat if he could rightfully direct their anger toward Beerus instead?
People who throw this idea around are people who just don't get the tone of Dragonball in any sense of the word.

If it gets brought up, the characters will shrug it off.
Beerus himself tells Vegeta about this at the beginning of the Granolah arc.
I completely forgot. So many details from the Moro and Granolah arcs have fallen out of my brain.

Well that settles that.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Champa The Destroyer » Sat Sep 10, 2022 7:28 pm

TKA wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 5:13 pm
obiwan23s wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 12:51 pmWhat if he could rightfully direct their anger toward Beerus instead?
People who throw this idea around are people who just don't get the tone of Dragonball in any sense of the word.

If it gets brought up, the characters will shrug it off. Vegeta was told that the Saiyans were killed by Frieza and his reaction was "eh, I don't care lol" and then he killed Dodoria. When Goku was told about the fate of the saiyans, it meant nothing to him because they were just marauding monsters who he had no connection to.

Them being told Beerus did this 50 years ago would, at best, result in "Wow, that's wild. Anyway."

Any other reaction is bad writing. Especially from Vegeta, who doesn't seem to mind much that Beerus humiliated his father.

Agreed. Hell at this point, the Saiyans being wiped out were a godsend (no pun intended) for Goku and Vegeta. They wouldn't be nearly as powerful nor as happy if the saiyans survived. At this point in the story even Vegeta is content, even outright happy, over his homelife.

Why would they ever want planet vegeta and the barbaric saiyans to still exist?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Sun Sep 11, 2022 1:41 am

Champa The Destroyer wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 7:28 pm Why would they ever want planet vegeta and the barbaric saiyans to still exist?
That's not what the original poster is arguing for.

Revenge isn't about restoring what was lost. It's about getting retribution for what was lost. The original poster wants a story where Goku and Vegeta get mad about Beerus setting up the genocide of their home planet.

Which, you know, is a dumb story. What's Beerus going to do when they bring that up that's dramatic? His attitude toward destroying whole civilization is "eh, I guess I did that". He's very cavalier about it the whole thing. Then there's Goku and Vegeta's individual personalities and viewpoints, which would amount to "Yeah, they deserved it. Sucks tho. Oh well."
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