It's very likely. After all, Kaioshins are also Gods so theoretically the wish could also include them as barriers that Granolah could not overcome. But Goku and Vegeta already overcame that level a long time ago, so by wishing to overcome mortals, Granolah would naturally overcome the Gods already surpassed by these beingsGreatSaiyaman123 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 3:28 pm Was Granola's wish exploring a loophole on the dragon's logic? He couldn't directly wish himself to be stronger than the gods, but he could wish himself stronger than a mortal stronger than gods...
"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
Isn’t this self evident? They obviously mean Beerus and Whis when reffering to “Gods”.. As the Kaioshins have long since been surpassed ever since the Buu Arc and before.
(Perfect Cell and SSJ2 Kid Gohan included). So the wish is obviously not talking about the Kaioshins. Which leaves only the God of Destruction and the Angel of Universe 7.
(Perfect Cell and SSJ2 Kid Gohan included). So the wish is obviously not talking about the Kaioshins. Which leaves only the God of Destruction and the Angel of Universe 7.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
Also Whis wouldn't be concerned if Granolah was at the strength of the Kais, I doubt he'd even bat an eye or at best shrug and say,'Meh. Whatever.'GodVegetto91 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 5:25 pm Isn’t this self evident? They obviously mean Beerus and Whis when reffering to “Gods”.. As the Kaioshins have long since been surpassed ever since the Buu Arc and before.
(Perfect Cell and SSJ2 Kid Gohan included). So the wish is obviously not talking about the Kaioshins. Which leaves only the God of Destruction and the Angel of Universe 7.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
I don't think so. The Dragon couldn't naturally make Granolah stronger than the Gods (and thus Goku as well), but he could unlock Granolah's life-long potential, which resulted in him (presumably) being the strongest mortal. It's not like the Dragon actually had the power to grant Granolah this strength himself though.GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 3:28 pm Was Granola's wish exploring a loophole on the dragon's logic? He couldn't directly wish himself to be stronger than the gods, but he could wish himself stronger than a mortal stronger than gods...
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
Reactions to #71:
I'm not sure what Whis means by saving Silver as a "last resort for when a battle demands you surpass your limits". Is he saying that Silver will always be stronger, but he should only save it for critical moments? Or is he saying in case Goku screws up using MnG in his base form, he can always "turn it on" with Silver? I assume it's the former, but I'd personally like to see all forms become redundant to MnG in base.
I like how Granolla keeps an eye on Monaito from afar. Granolla cares for the old man, but he can't bring himself to face him until he's accomplished his goal. Granolla's Cerealian eye has also increased in capability, so I hope/look forward to seeing how that affects the upcoming battle.
If the Heata ship was designed by Toyotaro, which I assume it was, it's my favorite aircraft he's designed.
Upon further readings, I do think that Elec is manipulating Gas, but we'll see. If Commander Red is any indication, which he may not be, Elec may have his own secret (and possibly petty) motives.
I said "wow" out loud when Zuno gave Maki 10 questions. In an arc where knowledge is power, that felt like a huge advantage. I hope we'll one day hear all of Zuno's answers, no doubt packed to the brim with useless tidbits about patents and such.
While I've loved Migatte no Gokui in the manga, Goku dodging Whis' staff is a significant moment for me. In previous arcs we're told that Goku's body is dodging on his own, but we know Goku can use ki sense to see where people are without looking. So while the story tells us this is at a higher level, it's not all that different from things we've seen martial artists do in DB. However, Whis' staff does not have ki, so Goku is doing something other martial artists could presumably not. It's a minute detail, but I got excited about it...
The stretch of pages without speech (pg.16-24) were a highlight for me. I've always enjoyed scenes without dialogue from Toyo.
I was pleasantly surprised by Chi-Chi's role in this chapter, and I like the way Toyotaro draws her.
Maki is just as cool as Elec now. Hopefully the other two Heatas get more development. I expect that Gas will and Oil won't, but we'll see.
The rivalry between Beerus and Whis is fantastic. This seems to be another move in Whis' 4D chess game to motivate Beerus. Having no spoilers of Beerus bestowing a Hakaishin earring to Vegeta, that was the standout moment of the chapter for me. Glad to see Whis' signature return, but I wish it was on the other dogi...
Goku should figure out that Granolla isn't a villain pretty quickly. I figure he'd still want to fight just to see who's the Strongest in the Universe, but I'm not sure where it'll go from there. I'm very curious to see how Vegeta will use Hakai in battle without simply erasing his opponent.
I'm not sure what Whis means by saving Silver as a "last resort for when a battle demands you surpass your limits". Is he saying that Silver will always be stronger, but he should only save it for critical moments? Or is he saying in case Goku screws up using MnG in his base form, he can always "turn it on" with Silver? I assume it's the former, but I'd personally like to see all forms become redundant to MnG in base.
I like how Granolla keeps an eye on Monaito from afar. Granolla cares for the old man, but he can't bring himself to face him until he's accomplished his goal. Granolla's Cerealian eye has also increased in capability, so I hope/look forward to seeing how that affects the upcoming battle.
If the Heata ship was designed by Toyotaro, which I assume it was, it's my favorite aircraft he's designed.
Upon further readings, I do think that Elec is manipulating Gas, but we'll see. If Commander Red is any indication, which he may not be, Elec may have his own secret (and possibly petty) motives.
I said "wow" out loud when Zuno gave Maki 10 questions. In an arc where knowledge is power, that felt like a huge advantage. I hope we'll one day hear all of Zuno's answers, no doubt packed to the brim with useless tidbits about patents and such.
While I've loved Migatte no Gokui in the manga, Goku dodging Whis' staff is a significant moment for me. In previous arcs we're told that Goku's body is dodging on his own, but we know Goku can use ki sense to see where people are without looking. So while the story tells us this is at a higher level, it's not all that different from things we've seen martial artists do in DB. However, Whis' staff does not have ki, so Goku is doing something other martial artists could presumably not. It's a minute detail, but I got excited about it...
The stretch of pages without speech (pg.16-24) were a highlight for me. I've always enjoyed scenes without dialogue from Toyo.
I was pleasantly surprised by Chi-Chi's role in this chapter, and I like the way Toyotaro draws her.
Maki is just as cool as Elec now. Hopefully the other two Heatas get more development. I expect that Gas will and Oil won't, but we'll see.
The rivalry between Beerus and Whis is fantastic. This seems to be another move in Whis' 4D chess game to motivate Beerus. Having no spoilers of Beerus bestowing a Hakaishin earring to Vegeta, that was the standout moment of the chapter for me. Glad to see Whis' signature return, but I wish it was on the other dogi...
Goku should figure out that Granolla isn't a villain pretty quickly. I figure he'd still want to fight just to see who's the Strongest in the Universe, but I'm not sure where it'll go from there. I'm very curious to see how Vegeta will use Hakai in battle without simply erasing his opponent.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
Do you expect that highly of his intelligence at this point?batistabus wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:02 pm Goku should figure out that Granolla isn't a villain pretty quickly. I figure he'd still want to fight just to see who's the Strongest in the Universe, but I'm not sure where it'll go from there.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
Good post.batistabus wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:02 pm Reactions to #71:
I'm not sure what Whis means by saving Silver as a "last resort for when a battle demands you surpass your limits". Is he saying that Silver will always be stronger, but he should only save it for critical moments? Or is he saying in case Goku screws up using MnG in his base form, he can always "turn it on" with Silver? I assume it's the former, but I'd personally like to see all forms become redundant to MnG in base.
I like how Granolla keeps an eye on Monaito from afar. Granolla cares for the old man, but he can't bring himself to face him until he's accomplished his goal. Granolla's Cerealian eye has also increased in capability, so I hope/look forward to seeing how that affects the upcoming battle.
If the Heata ship was designed by Toyotaro, which I assume it was, it's my favorite aircraft he's designed.
Upon further readings, I do think that Elec is manipulating Gas, but we'll see. If Commander Red is any indication, which he may not be, Elec may have his own secret (and possibly petty) motives.
I said "wow" out loud when Zuno gave Maki 10 questions. In an arc where knowledge is power, that felt like a huge advantage. I hope we'll one day hear all of Zuno's answers, no doubt packed to the brim with useless tidbits about patents and such.
While I've loved Migatte no Gokui in the manga, Goku dodging Whis' staff is a significant moment for me. In previous arcs we're told that Goku's body is dodging on his own, but we know Goku can use ki sense to see where people are without looking. So while the story tells us this is at a higher level, it's not all that different from things we've seen martial artists do in DB. However, Whis' staff does not have ki, so Goku is doing something other martial artists could presumably not. It's a minute detail, but I got excited about it...
The stretch of pages without speech (pg.16-24) were a highlight for me. I've always enjoyed scenes without dialogue from Toyo.
I was pleasantly surprised by Chi-Chi's role in this chapter, and I like the way Toyotaro draws her.
Maki is just as cool as Elec now. Hopefully the other two Heatas get more development. I expect that Gas will and Oil won't, but we'll see.
The rivalry between Beerus and Whis is fantastic. This seems to be another move in Whis' 4D chess game to motivate Beerus. Having no spoilers of Beerus bestowing a Hakaishin earring to Vegeta, that was the standout moment of the chapter for me. Glad to see Whis' signature return, but I wish it was on the other dogi...
Goku should figure out that Granolla isn't a villain pretty quickly. I figure he'd still want to fight just to see who's the Strongest in the Universe, but I'm not sure where it'll go from there. I'm very curious to see how Vegeta will use Hakai in battle without simply erasing his opponent.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
That would be my hope as well, but I expect less and maybe will be surprised, that Goku figures... but, I am afraid that either Granola won’t listen to reason, or that Goku will just find Granola who will be hellbent on destroying the Saiyans because of the cheap intel he got or Vegeta’s pride and cockiness will kick in lIke in Cell arc.
I am afraid that we will see the fight of Goku and Vegeta versus Granola anyway and I really do hope, that something else will come into play. Be it a new villain? New danger?
I kinda liked the Hearts from Heroes, who was like pulled off from Saint Seiya with his motivation to end the “terror” of gods over mortals... except the execution sucked hard.
But it was more interesting to me than Moro and so far te Granola arc.
The last arc I liked in manga and prefer it to the anime was Zamasu. Still, the best idea from the Super era sequel is Beerus and Whis for me and nothing came close to it yet - this introduction culminated with Tournament Of Power and starting with Moro and Granola, it is just rethreading and not much build-up.
I am afraid that we will see the fight of Goku and Vegeta versus Granola anyway and I really do hope, that something else will come into play. Be it a new villain? New danger?
I kinda liked the Hearts from Heroes, who was like pulled off from Saint Seiya with his motivation to end the “terror” of gods over mortals... except the execution sucked hard.
But it was more interesting to me than Moro and so far te Granola arc.
The last arc I liked in manga and prefer it to the anime was Zamasu. Still, the best idea from the Super era sequel is Beerus and Whis for me and nothing came close to it yet - this introduction culminated with Tournament Of Power and starting with Moro and Granola, it is just rethreading and not much build-up.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
Yes. Goku is good at reading his opponents, even throughout Super. He can tell when someone's holding back (Freeza, Hit, Moro, etc.), he can sus out divisions between allies (Black and Zamasu), and specifically to my point, he knew Broly wasn't a bad guy.PurestEvil wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:55 amDo you expect that highly of his intelligence at this point?batistabus wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:02 pm Goku should figure out that Granolla isn't a villain pretty quickly. I figure he'd still want to fight just to see who's the Strongest in the Universe, but I'm not sure where it'll go from there.
Again, I don't know what that'll mean. Despite Goku's sense of Broly, the fight went on. The story has seeded the idea that Vegeta will need to destroy his guilt for the sins of the Saiyans. To varying degrees, Goku has rejected his Saiyan ancestry, but after embracing Kakarotto, I'm curious to see how much he owns it against Granolla.
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
batistabus wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:54 amYes. Goku is good at reading his opponents, even throughout Super. He can tell when someone's holding back (Freeza, Hit, Moro, etc.), he can sus out divisions between allies (Black and Zamasu), and specifically to my point, he knew Broly wasn't a bad guy.PurestEvil wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:55 amDo you expect that highly of his intelligence at this point?batistabus wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:02 pm Goku should figure out that Granolla isn't a villain pretty quickly. I figure he'd still want to fight just to see who's the Strongest in the Universe, but I'm not sure where it'll go from there.
Again, I don't know what that'll mean. Despite Goku's sense of Broly, the fight went on. The story has seeded the idea that Vegeta will need to destroy his guilt for the sins of the Saiyans. To varying degrees, Goku has rejected his Saiyan ancestry, but after embracing Kakarotto, I'm curious to see how much he owns it against Granolla.
Goku might be able to tell Granolah is not a bad guy but I assume Granolah won’t listen to reason especially if as expected Goku reminds him of Bardock who destroyed his planet
Things can never be that easy anyways
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
That would be interesting! If the Cerealian Dragonballs have no cool down period and could overload, maybe Zalama has to intervene. It's unlikely but I really hope to learn more about him and what race he is exactly before DBS ends. An ancient Namek? Namek God? Dragon species?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
This couldn't be less relevant to the current arc but I had a rather amusing dream last night that seemed to parody the generic "evil Angel" plot concept (yes, I'm apparently a postmodern asshole even while unconscious), as the evil Angel was a tiny cherub who was stronger than the Great Priest battling Super Saiyan Purple Vegeta. It got me thinking though, do you think Angels age in reverse, Benjamin Button style? I mean, Great Priest looks like a teenaged boy but is actually the father of every other Angel, and Cus is the eldest of his children despite looking childish as well. Perhaps a baby cherub would be the oldest Angel.
If they do follow through with an Evil Angel plot, how do you think Toriyama would play with the concept?
Oh yeah, the Granola arc... The last chapter was fine, especially the wordless training sequence, that definitely exemplifies Toyotaro's abilities as a cartoonist. But the main plot of the Heeters' gambit is... less than convincing. Taking advantage of Chi-Chi is smart but surely Bulma and Vegeta are a little more perceptive to tell that these guys are blatantly evil? Honestly, I would've thought that the Saiyans' desire to challenge Granola would've been enough.
If they do follow through with an Evil Angel plot, how do you think Toriyama would play with the concept?
Oh yeah, the Granola arc... The last chapter was fine, especially the wordless training sequence, that definitely exemplifies Toyotaro's abilities as a cartoonist. But the main plot of the Heeters' gambit is... less than convincing. Taking advantage of Chi-Chi is smart but surely Bulma and Vegeta are a little more perceptive to tell that these guys are blatantly evil? Honestly, I would've thought that the Saiyans' desire to challenge Granola would've been enough.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
I think Goku and Vegeta will figure out that Granolah's not the villain, but Granolah, similar to Broly, will be blinded by rage. Goku and Vegeta will slowly overwhelm Granolah, and Granolah will finally see that they're not his enemies. That's my guess.
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
I feel like that might be too clean for this first encounter. Unless this arc is a short one I feel they are going to continue having the two parties be blind to who is the true threat
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
I feel like Toriyama would be likely to present it in the same basic way he did Tenshi the Angel in Go! Go! Ackman: not actually evil, but so incompetent at his job that he inadvertently does the job of evildoers for them in trying to stop them. So, more like a 'bad' Angel than an 'evil' Angel.LoganForkHands73 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:11 amIf they do follow through with an Evil Angel plot, how do you think Toriyama would play with the concept?
Maybe, but part of me feels like Elec might not see this as so much of a problem in the long run: he's already set out his ideology of intel over might, which he thinks is on the way out, and his agenda as one of usurping Freeza's army to do his fighting for him. Combine this with the observation a couple of guys here have made - that Elec seems to be manipulating Gas rather than being entirely sincere with him - and you may get a 'self-cleaning' operation where Gas sweeps up the threats, dies himself, and leaves Elec the master of the Freeza Force.GalaxyBusterBuu wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:57 pm Any guesses on what they would wish for Gas when they got the Dragon Balls? As convenient as wishing to be the strongest would be, he'd end up with his life-span cut and would make him a ticking time bomb in terms of use, as once that period is up, he's gone. They might try wishing for a power up without costing his life-force, at least not as drastically.
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
That would be fun to see! I loved Toriyama's work after DB like Ackman and Sandland. I guess Meerus would be the closest to a "bad" Angel in the sense that he wasn't following the rules and he automatically erased. He was given a second chance since he was a good guy but an actual bad or evil Angel would be permanently erased so that rule kinda acts as a failsafe to prevent one from being a threat.Magnificent Ponta wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:20 pmI feel like Toriyama would be likely to present it in the same basic way he did Tenshi the Angel in Go! Go! Ackman: not actually evil, but so incompetent at his job that he inadvertently does the job of evildoers for them in trying to stop them. So, more like a 'bad' Angel than an 'evil' Angel.
I was curious how an evil Angel would play before that rule was revealed in the Moro arc. Zamasu killed the Kaioshin to get the GoDs and Angels out of the way and was attacking the Future Trunks' Earth so that gave Goku and Vegeta a reason to fight him. An evil Angel would be in a weird spot since he would likely be too strong for any mortal or GoD to fight but far weaker than the Grand Priest who would likely have to get involved if the Angels are his responsibility.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
That might be true, but I'd be dissapointed if they're unable to figure it out. Even against Broly, who seemed far worse, they were able to figure it out. Maybe Elec and the rest will interfere with their fight once everyone's starting to realize it. Idk.
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
I could maybe see that. Maybe Goku and Vegeta learn but Granolah can't trust the Saiyans
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
There's also the possibility of Monaito showing up to the brawl, trying to stop Granolah ("they had nothing to do with what happened to your people") or the saiyans ("he's not a bad guy bla bla"), or like what happened to Paragus, a lost ki-blast ends up killing the guy and driving Granolah crazy. This would fuck Elec's plans, though.
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
I didn't think about that, good theory. I hope too the silver form is just a failsafe in case he loses concentration with MnG in his base form. The way Whis phrases it makes it seem like it could be that, but seeing that this is Dragon Ball, I'm not sure either.batistabus wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:02 pm Reactions to #71:
I'm not sure what Whis means by saving Silver as a "last resort for when a battle demands you surpass your limits". Is he saying that Silver will always be stronger, but he should only save it for critical moments? Or is he saying in case Goku screws up using MnG in his base form, he can always "turn it on" with Silver? I assume it's the former, but I'd personally like to see all forms become redundant to MnG in base.