Kinokima wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:42 pmAgain all your examples continue to be from DBZ NOT Super where Vegeta surpasses Goku for the briefest of moments let’s the power rise to his head just to immediately gets beat up. If Vegeta HAD won those fights, defeated Goku well his development would be non-existent.
And I'm saying you're wrong because this Vegeta is even
less obsessed with surpassing Goku than his previous self. This Vegeta isn't the race realist, classist fuck he used to be. The rivalry is friendly. If he surpasses Goku now, he's even more likely to probably just go off golfing with Trunks. The Vegeta of the original story has a single-minded drive to prove his saiyan eugenics belief system correct by being stronger than Goku, and when he does become stronger than Goku, all he does is bask in his strength. This Vegeta's rivalry with Goku is friendly. This is the character growth he's achieved.
You invented some crazy Vegeta in your head, dawg.
Krillin1994 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:48 pm
I think saying that using Vegeta attitude and character from his villainous days as your argument isn’t the most effective.
Vegeta is the most complex character Toriyama has ever written. To not look at him holistically because that would mess up your argument is to do disservice to the character.
Obviously people’s big draw to Vegeta is his desire to surpass Goku, but super has seen the most time Goku and Vegeta spent together. Is it that unreasonable to suggest that some of Goku’s attitude towards improvement can rub off on him.
Characters are not people. Characters are literary devices. Until the day comes where Vegeta says training and bettering himself is what matters, then his motivation will always be to be the strongest. A guy literally linked you all the times in Super where Vegeta scoffs at new challenges.
Vegeta primarily fights to show that he is stronger than x, hence his ire about Granolah. But really that is a lot of bravado. We’ve seen his mentality at tournament of power. We see what he thinks about when on the ropes in the tournament of power. His thoughts being on Bulma, his promise to cabba and protecting the U6 Saiyans. Those are just as big a reason why he feels he needs to be strong now too.
Yes, unlike Goku, Vegeta tends to be more cognizant of how his actions impact those around him. But to say he fights or trains to protect people is being generous. Vegeta doesn't go around vanquishing evil out of some sense of altruism. He, like any reasonable person, defends what he cares about when put in that position. If he was some righteous protector, why isn't he actively out there fighting crime? Why isn't he spending his time making sure the Namekians and such are safe? He's not a bad guy, but the main impetus for getting strength is his drive to be the strongest.
Do you honestly think that this current Vegeta would stop training if he become stronger than Goku?
No. Because Beerus and Whis are around, and are explicitly stronger than him and Goku.
Vegeta before super never had a martial artists mentality, and whilst he doesn’t fully. Having formal mentors in Whis and Beerus is changing him.
No. Vegeta actively threw away whatever lessons Whis tried imparting on him in the tournament of power because he doesn't believe in the kind of martial arts training Goku does. Goku has no problem being taught by people who are weaker than him, or who make him do silly/stupid things. For Vegeta, it's a matter of pride.
Even when he swallowed that pride and went to Yardrat, he never fully embraced their training, unlike Goku.
From a personal perspective, I get annoyed when I see people trying to ascribe these things to Vegeta because they make him less interesting. He's cool because he has a flawed world view. Vegeta just wants to be the best in the room, and that's perfectly okay. That kind of mindset allows him to be a better husband and father than Goku.