"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Luso Saiyan » Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:44 pm

TKA wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:17 pmStuff like this is why I insist that the original creators are irreplaceable. They know the work in a way literally nobody else does. This is probably the most literal interpretation of that; literal rules that nobody but Toriyama would know.
Exactly. And stuff like that is not unheard of from a lot of other creators. A lot of what sells a fictional world is the illusion of an internal logic, and they know it. The author doesn't always show or share all it entails (no matter how in-depth or vague it might be), but it is there, it was designed with it in mind, and that's enough.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:47 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:42 amI thought it was common sense throughout every fandom that an author’s extra-universal comments were technically not a part of a story because they were not incorporated into their work
That contradicts what I've seen in the Harry Potter fandom. People using JK Rowling's information/words as part of the series.

And if that's supposed to be "common sense", then I really must be a very unusual individual. As far as I can tell, an author's words is nothing more than part of supplemental material, which you are entitled to accept what they are saying or not, since there's nothing official that says you must take every word into account and vice-versa.

Who's to say I'm wrong by ignoring Toriyama's pointless "Buu wasn't created by Bibidi" but by accepting the existence of an alternate dimension that was spoken by him?

Naturally, this also goes to guidebooks and their supplemental information too.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:15 pm

Grimlock wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:47 pm [...] As far as I can tell, an author's words is nothing more than part of supplemental material, which you are entitled to accept what they are saying or not, since there's nothing official that says you must take every word into account and vice-versa.

Who's to say I'm wrong by ignoring Toriyama's pointless "Buu wasn't created by Bibidi" but by accepting the existence of an alternate dimension that was spoken by him?

Naturally, this also goes to guidebooks and their supplemental information too.
Well, for the record, I never said that we should completely disregard Toriyama's comments from interviews without hesitation. It's just that these comments are not actually incorporated into the work, so they are easily subject to contradiction by later works (possibly due to the author thinking of a better idea). I don't believe that such contradictions should be as big of an issue as, say, a genuine retcon of information present in a past work (potara fusion comes to mind), especially considering how weirdly Toriyama goes about with things.

...but yeah, my statement about all that being common sense was pretty ignorant of me. I apologize for that.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Thu Oct 28, 2021 5:06 pm

Luso Saiyan wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:44 pm
TKA wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:17 pmStuff like this is why I insist that the original creators are irreplaceable. They know the work in a way literally nobody else does. This is probably the most literal interpretation of that; literal rules that nobody but Toriyama would know.
Exactly. And stuff like that is not unheard of from a lot of other creators. A lot of what sells a fictional world is the illusion of an internal logic, and they know it. The author doesn't always show or share all it entails (no matter how in-depth or vague it might be), but it is there, it was designed with it in mind, and that's enough.
Authors are also not infallible. We can sometimes even be a capricious bunch and some of us have bad memories and accidentally change important details to make other ideas fit better. There are even times when our fans know our work or characters better than us, though yes, they aren't privy to the inner workings of an author's mind. We may remember something differently later than we originally intended, especially when it comes to work we've put down for a while. Most authors I know are detail oriented, but even they are only human. I use an extensive series of notes to help keep things intact, but even so, you forget things easily.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:54 pm

Most long-running franchises that lose a creator (or only cursorily involve them as many modern reboots do) inevitably lose that unique 'spark' in turn. But that said, the original creators aren't infallible gods, they can make mistakes sometimes. Dragon Ball has always had a bit of a raw deal in terms of how it's handled as a media property by Toei, who constantly waver between hilariously failing to truly understand Dragon Ball's tone, to occasionally having flashes of brilliance that even Toriyama lauds and takes direct inspiration from, even if it sometimes diverges from the status quo. Undeniably, the anime has had many talented people and studios behind it.

Then you have Toyotaro, a great cartoonist who clearly "gets" Toriyama's style in a way few artists do, but often sprinkles in easter eggs for anime fans -- because he is one himself -- on top of his own idiosyncrasies which are becoming increasingly apparent as he gains more creative control over the story. If you follow the Toyotaro Drew It sketches, you'll know that Toyo is a huge Bardock stan, he's drawn him more often than any other character. There's zero doubt in my mind that including Bardock was 100% his idea. Everything related to Bardock-kun aside, Toyotaro is fantastic at writing just about every other character. We know that Toriyama influenced the controversial direction of Goku's character throughout Super, writing many of the gags at his expense. Now that Toriyama is seemingly loosening his grip on the manga, we're getting great scenes of Goku... not acting like an irredeemable fuckwit? Actually displaying some basic intelligence and maturity? :shock:

There's always a fine line to walk when you're working on someone else's baby. Do you play it safe and try to emulate the original material as closely as possible? Do you go full Jackson Pollock and splooge your paint spatters all over it? Both have their merits in my opinion.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:58 pm

Considering that Dragon Ball is an institution, I highly doubt that Toyotaro is just allowed to fuck around and do whatever he wants--because money.

With that said...I don't necessarily care for people using Toriyama as a shield for some of his questionable story choices. As already stated: an author is not infallible. More importantly, we live in a post-deconstructionist world in which what doesn't really matter is the author's intention, but how said intention makes audience feel.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by capsulecorp » Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:49 pm

kemuri07 wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:58 pm what doesn't really matter is the author's intention, but how said intention makes audience feel.
I disagree, especially in the case of Dragon Ball, where the audience is so vast. The way the audience feels... doesn't really matter. Especially not to me.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:29 pm

capsulecorp wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:49 pm
kemuri07 wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:58 pm what doesn't really matter is the author's intention, but how said intention makes audience feel.
I disagree, especially in the case of Dragon Ball, where the audience is so vast. The way the audience feels... doesn't really matter. Especially not to me.
Well, that's nice and all but it ignores how society is much more in-tune with understanding the effect that media has on public perception. Being a commercial product aimed at kids is going to present restrictions for Dragon Ball productions while also beckoning that a certain standard of content appropriateness for the target audience is met.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Fri Oct 29, 2021 10:01 pm

kemuri07 wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:58 pm As already stated: an author is not infallible. More importantly, we live in a post-deconstructionist world in which what doesn't really matter is the author's intention, but how said intention makes audience feel.
1. I would argue that an original author, in the world they created, is completely infallible. Within the context of Dragonball, Toriyama can do no wrong. He can do things you don’t like, or that make you feel bad, but he isn’t wrong to do them.

2. Too many works nowadays cater to audiences’ expectations, such that any works that DONT are vilified. Personally I think audiences should be ignored entirely so the author/painter/director/storyteller/what have you can create their work unbothered, unfiltered and untethered.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Xeogran » Sat Oct 30, 2021 2:09 am

Ok, how many pages do you want them to dedicate to Bardock vs Gas? For one Gas needs some characterization but then we already know the end result of this fight anyway. If I were in charge I'd settle this in 10-13 and then move to present time events.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Sat Oct 30, 2021 3:04 am

Xeogran wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 2:09 am Ok, how many pages do you want them to dedicate to Bardock vs Gas? For one Gas needs some characterization but then we already know the end result of this fight anyway. If I were in charge I'd settle this in 10-13 and then move to present time events.
If I had that authority, I would designate the first half of the chapter to Bardock vs Gas and the aftermath, then the second half to the present, which would include Granolah's reaction and the Heeters summoning the dragon (that is what they will most definitely do).
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Totamo » Sat Oct 30, 2021 6:51 am

I hope next month releases a more fandom friendly chapter.


dragon ball is meant to be fun after all

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:37 am

Totamo wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 6:51 am I hope next month releases a more fandom friendly chapter.


dragon ball is meant to be fun after all
Fandom friendly? HAH! Dragon Ball fans will always find stuff to complain about.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:57 am

capsulecorp wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:49 pm
kemuri07 wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:58 pm what doesn't really matter is the author's intention, but how said intention makes audience feel.
I disagree, especially in the case of Dragon Ball, where the audience is so vast. The way the audience feels... doesn't really matter. Especially not to me.
I also disagree. Though Dragon Ball does share a lot of similarity to professional wrestling where that is also the main focus, at least it used to be. But a story can be told in whatever way it needs to be, whatever way the author wants it to be.
TKA wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 10:01 pm 2. Too many works nowadays cater to audiences’ expectations, such that any works that DONT are vilified. Personally I think audiences should be ignored entirely so the author/painter/director/storyteller/what have you can create their work unbothered, unfiltered and untethered.
Depends on what's being created and how serious the author is about the piece. With Berserk, I'd agree with you. There is certainly a strong vision there. With Dragon Ball, even early Dragon Ball, I think audience consideration has only made it a better product and even a better story.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:49 am

kemuri07 wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:58 pm Considering that Dragon Ball is an institution, I highly doubt that Toyotaro is just allowed to fuck around and do whatever he wants--because money.
Judging by one of the recent interviews, it seems Toriyama is happy with Toyotaro taking more storytelling initiative, but you're right that he's probably still limited and can't just paint the house red with no :thumbup: from the bossman.
1. I would argue that an original author, in the world they created, is completely infallible. Within the context of Dragonball, Toriyama can do no wrong. He can do things you don’t like, or that make you feel bad, but he isn’t wrong to do them.

2. Too many works nowadays cater to audiences’ expectations, such that any works that DONT are vilified. Personally I think audiences should be ignored entirely so the author/painter/director/storyteller/what have you can create their work unbothered, unfiltered and untethered.
I mean, I agree with the second point no questions asked, but I think the first is deifying the almighty auteur too much. Toriyama himself has admitted to making mistakes and bad calls in the past, from big things like realising he made the timeline mechanics in the Android arc too convoluted, to small continuity errors like drawing kid Dende in Buu arc scenes. I don't think anyone's implying he's morally wrong for the decisions he makes, but they're still free to criticise, just as he can criticise himself.

In commercial art, there's always an element of collaboration so I don't care much for putting one special person on a gold pedestal. Much of Dragon Ball's creative DNA and direction came from Torishima, without him, Goku would look like a chibi Sun Wukong and the series probably wouldn't be focused on martial arts at all. For the record, I do believe Toriyama is undoubtedly the most important voice in Dragon Ball, but he's not the only voice that matters, especially since Dragon Ball Super is a collaboration between him and Toyotaro. If Super makes a mistake, surely Toriyama would be partly to blame? I guess my main point is, why must the original author be given all the creative leeway and infallibility, but nobody else, even the ones who work directly beside Toriyama?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:49 am

BWri wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:57 am Depends on what's being created and how serious the author is about the piece.
Nope, no caveats to my statement. I fully believe that it's all incumbent on the original author. They can do anything they want to with their baby. That Toriyama made moves to make the series more popular in the earlier days doesn't run counter to what I'm saying. He decided new elements needed to be introduced (tournaments) to boost sales, and he can do that since he's the original author. There were any number of popular things he could've done, but he knows his work enough to pick the right one.

Etc. etc.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Sat Oct 30, 2021 12:00 pm

TKA wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:49 am
BWri wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:57 am Depends on what's being created and how serious the author is about the piece.
Nope, no caveats to my statement. I fully believe that it's all incumbent on the original author. They can do anything they want to with their baby. That Toriyama made moves to make the series more popular in the earlier days doesn't run counter to what I'm saying. He decided new elements needed to be introduced (tournaments) to boost sales, and he can do that since he's the original author.

Etc. etc.
He didn't decide, his editor decided. If Toriyama continued his original vision, we'd not have Dragon Ball in its current incarnation. There's a decent case to be made that we wouldn't have Dragon Ball at all past Pilaf's Castle if Torishima-san didn't step in with his recommendations. I'm not saying you're wrong, but he clearly is not the same level of visionary as someone like Kentaro Miura or George R.R. Martin. Dragon Ball is only so malleable because there's a certain level of disinterest Toriyama-san has for the series. He simply can't be bothered with certain aspects which is why Torishima, Toei, and Toyotaro (all those T's) can exert so much influence over the franchise.
There were any number of popular things he could've done, but he knows his work enough to pick the right one.
This, I wholeheartedly agree with. He has great instincts.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheMikado » Sat Oct 30, 2021 5:52 pm

BWri wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 12:00 pm
TKA wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:49 am
BWri wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:57 am Depends on what's being created and how serious the author is about the piece.
Nope, no caveats to my statement. I fully believe that it's all incumbent on the original author. They can do anything they want to with their baby. That Toriyama made moves to make the series more popular in the earlier days doesn't run counter to what I'm saying. He decided new elements needed to be introduced (tournaments) to boost sales, and he can do that since he's the original author.

Etc. etc.
He didn't decide, his editor decided. If Toriyama continued his original vision, we'd not have Dragon Ball in its current incarnation. There's a decent case to be made that we wouldn't have Dragon Ball at all past Pilaf's Castle if Torishima-san didn't step in with his recommendations. I'm not saying you're wrong, but he clearly is not the same level of visionary as someone like Kentaro Miura or George R.R. Martin. Dragon Ball is only so malleable because there's a certain level of disinterest Toriyama-san has for the series. He simply can't be bothered with certain aspects which is why Torishima, Toei, and Toyotaro (all those T's) can exert so much influence over the franchise.
There were any number of popular things he could've done, but he knows his work enough to pick the right one.
This, I wholeheartedly agree with. He has great instincts.
Finally
Someone acknowledging that even the original manga wasn’t a one man masterpiece created exclusively from the mind of Toriyama. As stated, if Toriyama hadn’t been pushed by his editors and had his story enhanced with their recommendation we likely wouldn’t even be talking about Dragon Ball today.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:38 pm

Yeah. What's more galling is that Torishima-san was just following the trends set by Hokuto no Ken, a manga he didn't even personally like, which Toriyama trundled along with to great effect. But Torishima saw Toriyama's unique talent for action scenes and wanted to nurture that. A danger is assuming that artists/authors exist in bubbles and that their genius just spontaneously arrives to them, but it's rarely a true one-man-show. There's usually a teacher, a muse, a collaborator, or just someone egging them along on the sidelines.

Besides, anyone can claim to be "the original auteur" of something but it doesn't automatically make them untouchable. Jeff Koons is a proper artiste-with-an-e, at least that's what his dealers and billionaire bidders with more money than sense would have people believe, but most of his work is kitschy, cynical, meaningless tat. He has the human right to make his art the way he wants, sure. But I can still say it's tat.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:49 pm

TheMikado wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 5:52 pm Finally
Someone acknowledging that even the original manga wasn’t a one man masterpiece created exclusively from the mind of Toriyama. As stated, if Toriyama hadn’t been pushed by his editors and had his story enhanced with their recommendation we likely wouldn’t even be talking about Dragon Ball today.
Yeah, if the original manga had been created exclusively by Toriyama it would have turned out very differently, and would have most likely never lasted as long as it did. Back when the original manga was being created, Toriyama's editors basically had the final say, and if they didn't like a design Toriyama made, or the direction a story arc was going, it was back to the drawing board for Toriyama. It's interesting that now Toriyama is playing that role with Toyotaro.

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