"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[batistabus]

Vegeta's words are not the problem with this scene. If anything, they're the saving grace. All of this nonsense about character assassination is beyond ridiculous. It seems like people want a version of Vegeta that is so mature and level-headed that he no longer bears resemblance to what makes Vegeta distinct. If we ever get a Vegeta that lives up to that unreasonable expectation, that will be the end of his role in Dragon Ball. Just because he acknowledges Goku as better in the Boo arc, that doesn't mean he he's perfectly happy being second best. If that were the case, Super would not be able to exist in its current form. Even if he understands that he is, in reality, not superior, he believes that he can and should be.

Vegeta has been eating his failures one after another up to this point in Super. Here we see a tipping point. I don't like that it resulted in a transformation (if you can even call it that), but character-wise, it's totally appropriate.

Based on this scene, however, it does seem that Vegeta should no longer train with Whis in the future. We'll see if that ends up being the case.

[PFM18]

I can see what you guys are talking about vegeta swallowing his pride for good reasons , protect his family and trying to be stronger , it’s just that I’m not a fan of how that was depicted, I found both ways ( bingo dance and one knee asking to Whis for train ) way too much of lower him down , may be just my vegeta fan pride

Vegeta is my favorite character in all of fiction. I like him more than Batman. I like him more than Darth Vader (this includes the Expanded Universe). I like him more than Humbert. I like him more than Macbeth. There isn't a single character in all of fiction that I think even comes close to being as good as Vegeta.

I fucking love how he gets humiliated (in Toriyama stories; Toei does it poorly). The humiliation is how his character grows since Vegeta is so stubborn and has such a strong will that he'll keep doing things his way otherwise. Getting humiliated in the Cell arc gave him some of the best and most natural character development I've ever seen. Seeing him broken down so much that he cries against Frieza was great. Seeing him come to grips with the fact that his sacrifice against Buu meant nothing was fantastic.

Seeing him subject HIMSELF to the bingo dance was fucking amazing because it showed in that one moment just how far his character had developed. A good way to gauge how much a character has changed is to look at their intro and compare it to their most recent outing. Can you see Saiyan Arc Vegeta doing that? I can't. I can't even picture Buu arc Vegeta doing that. This is a character that changes so much over the course of the series, man. He's too deep and too nuanced a character to just be a vehicle for "cool" moments.

I generally agree with what you're saying but it is strange to me that you are highlighting how much Vegeta shows progression in modern Dragon Ball without actually giving it any credit. Vegeta does very similar scenes of humiliating himself and showing progression in Super.

[TKA]

I generally agree with what you're saying but it is strange to me that you are highlighting how much Vegeta shows progression in modern Dragon Ball without actually giving it any credit. Vegeta does very similar scenes of humiliating himself and showing progression in Super.

I highlighted Toriyama for a reason. When he did it, there was a purpose to it. It was a character growth tool. Vegeta crying and whining about Broly doesn't do anything for the character; it's clearly only there to pad time. Then when he finally does decide to join in, he doesn't contribute anything. Vegeta's teachable moments always move the plot forward in some way, or result in some profound change for him.

[PFM18]

I generally agree with what you're saying but it is strange to me that you are highlighting how much Vegeta shows progression in modern Dragon Ball without actually giving it any credit. Vegeta does very similar scenes of humiliating himself and showing progression in Super.

I highlighted Toriyama for a reason. When he did it, there was a purpose to it. It was a character growth tool. Vegeta crying and whining about Broly doesn't do anything for the character; it's clearly only there to pad time. Then when he finally does decide to join in, he doesn't contribute anything. Vegeta's teachable moments always move the plot forward in some way, or result in some profound change for him.

What does this have to do with the Broly movie? I'm really confused why you bring up the Broly movie

[TKA]

What does this have to do with the Broly movie? I'm really confused why you bring up the Broly movie

Because in my initial statement, I made it clear that Toei does it poorly. Now I gave you an example of them doing it poorly.

Stuff like Episode 2 of Super where he brings Trunks to an amusement park is funny, but it doesn't really add much to the character at all. That's fine; characters don't need to be in a constant state of change, but I find stuff like that too superfluous to think about. Toriyama's use of Vegeta always trumps Toei's, and Toyotaro has definitely written a stronger version of Vegeta than the anime, as far as I'm concerned.

[PFM18]

What does this have to do with the Broly movie? I'm really confused why you bring up the Broly movie

Because in my initial statement, I made it clear that Toei does it poorly. Now I gave you an example of them doing it poorly.

Stuff like Episode 2 of Super where he brings Trunks to an amusement park is funny, but it doesn't really add much to the character at all. That's fine; characters don't need to be in a constant state of change, but I find stuff like that too superfluous to think about. Toriyama's use of Vegeta always trumps Toei's, and Toyotaro has definitely written a stronger version of Vegeta than the anime, as far as I'm concerned.

Toei is working with Toriyama in Super 20 years later rather than an older version of on a movie. They are completely different entities working on Super versus working on Movie 8. Not even remotely indicative of how competent this modern Toei-Toriyama group is.

I don't see Vegeta as being better written in the manga and this chapter is a perfect example of showcasing how poorly he is handled by Toyotaro.

[OhHiRenan]

The manga generally writes every character better, but there’s no saving Vegeta in the context of Super. He basically stuck in character limbo somewhere between the Cell and Boo arcs with a little bit of “development” peppered in. This chapter was pretty much the apex of that, showing us Vegeta at his most regressed yet. Both the anime and manga have done a horrible job with him. I’d argue that while the manga tends to handle him better, this chapter was the worst depiction of Vegeta between both mediums.

[Lord Beerus]

The manga generally writes every character better, but there’s no saving Vegeta in the context of Super. He basically stuck in character limbo somewhere between the Cell and Boo arcs with a little bit of “development” peppered in. This chapter was pretty much the apex of that, showing us Vegeta at his most regressed yet. Both the anime and manga have done a horrible job with him. I’d argue that while the manga tends to handle him better, this chapter was the worst depiction of Vegeta between both mediums.

Vegeta in Super was written perfectly fine in both mediums... until the Universal Survival arc -- or more specifically the 40 hours leading up the Tournament Of Power and 40-50% of the tournament itself -- where his characterization derailed in some regards. The anime has just been the lesser of two evils, in my opinion

[prince212]

How come no one see's the contrast between Goku being calm and accessing UI and Vegeta losing it [always been his style] and not able to gain UI?

Regarding what is supposed to be ultra instinct and Whis previews talking while training , that contrast is natural , the contrast was attaining that form via “eat a bomb “ or rage .
Being calm fits pretty well to unlock u.i , I would say it’s the only way.

[HeroR]

The manga generally writes every character better, but there’s no saving Vegeta in the context of Super. He basically stuck in character limbo somewhere between the Cell and Boo arcs with a little bit of “development” peppered in. This chapter was pretty much the apex of that, showing us Vegeta at his most regressed yet. Both the anime and manga have done a horrible job with him. I’d argue that while the manga tends to handle him better, this chapter was the worst depiction of Vegeta between both mediums.

Vegeta in Super was written perfectly fine in both mediums... until the Universal Survival arc -- or more specifically the 40 hours leading up the Tournament Of Power and 40-50% of the tournament itself -- where his characterization derailed in some regards. The anime has just been the lesser of two evils, in my opinion

I honestly don’t think Manga Future Trunks Saga Vegeta was written fine.

[prince212]

I honestly don’t think Manga Future Trunks Saga Vegeta was written fine.

Didn’t you like the reasons he accepted to do the potara fusion ?
I found those better than goku pushing him and grumpy vegeta accepting
https://youtu.be/GXo5ShfaPrQ

[HeroR]

I honestly don’t think Manga Future Trunks Saga Vegeta was written fine.

Didn’t you like the reasons he accepted to do the potara fusion ?
I found those better than goku pushing him and grumpy vegeta accepting
https://youtu.be/GXo5ShfaPrQ

No. Vegeta knew the stakes, knew he couldn’t beat Merged Zamasu, and went all Buu Saga. Both Goku and Vegeta were dumbasses. They tried to fight Merged Zamasu and got owned. So why the hell did they decide to fight Merged Zamasu 1:1 and this before they knew had a time limit. At least against Kid Buu, they Super Saiyan 3 was enough m.

[TKA]

Toei is working with Toriyama in Super 20 years later rather than an older version of on a movie. They are completely different entities working on Super versus working on Movie 8. Not even remotely indicative of how competent this modern Toei-Toriyama group is.

I don't see Vegeta as being better written in the manga and this chapter is a perfect example of showcasing how poorly he is handled by Toyotaro.

Bro.

We know Toriyama is more intimately involved with the manga. We know his role in the anime is minimal and that the bulk of writing is done by Tori’s in-house writers.

To give you an example from Tori’s Super: Vegeta decoding he needs to save Cabbe instead of his family, which mean the most to him, in order to persevere in the tournament of power.

Toei has proven over the past 20 years to not really have a handle on the most complex character in the series. They barely have a handle on how to write Goku, let alone Vegeta.

[PFM18]

Toei is working with Toriyama in Super 20 years later rather than an older version of on a movie. They are completely different entities working on Super versus working on Movie 8. Not even remotely indicative of how competent this modern Toei-Toriyama group is.

I don't see Vegeta as being better written in the manga and this chapter is a perfect example of showcasing how poorly he is handled by Toyotaro.

Bro.

We know Toriyama is more intimately involved with the manga. We know his role in the anime is minimal and that the bulk of writing is done by Tori’s in-house writers.

To give you an example from Tori’s Super: Vegeta decoding he needs to save Cabbe instead of his family, which mean the most to him, in order to persevere in the tournament of power.

Toei has proven over the past 20 years to not really have a handle on the most complex character in the series. They barely have a handle on how to write Goku, let alone Vegeta.

No we don't know that his role in the anime is minimal it is literally the opposite. He plays as big of a role in the anime as the manga, he has to approve everything.

You COMPLETELY misinterpreted this scene with Cabba. At this point in the tournament Universe 7 had several more members than Universe 11 and it hadn't set in just how unstoppable Jiren is, and Goku had just powered up to be 20x stronger than him. He was worried about being the winner of the tournament and getting his wish. It wasn't a matter of saving Cabba meant the most to him, that's ridiculous. It was "oh crap, if we win, but I'm not the MVP then I won't be able to save Cabab!" Which if that were the case, obviously Bulma, Bra and Trunks would be safe and only Cabba is in jeopardy. At this moment he didn't seem to think that his family was in jeopardy. This was a development with his relationship with Cabba and becoming a mentor without fully intending to be,(he tells Cabba not to call him "master" all the time). This wasn't "yeah so he cares more about Cabba than his family." So, to use your word; Bro, you're just confused and don't understand the most complex character in the series.

[Miracles]

How come no one see's the contrast between Goku being calm and accessing UI and Vegeta losing it [always been his style] and not able to gain UI?

Regarding what is supposed to be ultra instinct and Whis previews talking while training , that contrast is natural , the contrast was attaining that form via “eat a bomb “ or rage .
Being calm fits pretty well to unlock u.i , I would say it’s the only way.

I said that because it perfectly fits in line with what Vegeta said this chapter. How Whis teachings of UI or training authority were not suited for his unstable, stubborn, isolated and enraged persona.

Those who say it destroyed Vegeta's character really don't know the story at all.

[batistabus]

No we don't know that his role in the anime is minimal it is literally the opposite. He plays as big of a role in the anime as the manga, he has to approve everything.

I'll let TKA address the Cabba situation if he wants.

You are very wrong about this. Toriyama's seal of approval is meaningless. He "approved" GT, but that doesn't mean he was heavily involved. Toriyama re-scripts and re-draws things for the manga that get published. He directly oversees Toyotaros work, and makes corrections as he sees fit. There has never been an interview that implies he has even close to that level of involvement with the anime. Why would he? That's not what he does.

He's become more involved with the film than any of the Super anime, but the nature of the films are different because Toriyama writes the majority of the script (as opposed to just an outline).

[Rakurai]

After re-reading Ch. 27 on my break, Ch. 40 makes A LOT more sense from Vegeta's perspective. He's begrudgingly undergone through Whis' teachings, and didn't even want to take any compliments from him. That's clearly not his style.

And if you think about Vegeta's endeavors thus far:

• He acquired god ki not from the ritual, but through his own devices as Goku put it. Yes he was trained by Whis to an extent but if the anime is anything to go by, he mostly had to learn it himself while Whis provided the regimens/training grounds for doing it.
• He trained by himself and came up with the clever SSG-B switcheroo to overcome Black.
• He learned CSSB by himself.
• And he wanted to achieve UI first before Goku because he, in his own words, he was done chasing after Goku. But when Goku got UI "Omen" before him, or UI in general, Vegeta has decided not to play that game anymore and go about gaining strength his own way. Because that is how he improves the most.

And his battle philosophy is and has always been to become the strongest through pure power, to beat the opponent in front of him, to win and nothing else. Which, as Whis clearly puts it, not in line with the principle of UI, if the lectures we got from Roshi is anything to go by:

"We don't do martial arts to win. We do it to conquer ourselves."

The clear contrast between Goku and Vegeta's philosophies could not be anymore clear. Goku's martial arts teachings will naturally lead to UI, whereas Vegeta, who was raised as a pure battle-aggressive Saiyan, who's always been solo could never. At first I really did think Vegeta regressed as a character but now I really appreciate how Toyo laid out the different philosophies between Goku and Vegeta, which was the entire objective of his speech to Jiren. He's still the same Vegeta, but now we see it out loud.

[Miracles]

After re-reading Ch. 27 on my break, Ch. 40 makes A LOT more sense from Vegeta's perspective. He's begrudgingly undergone through Whis' teachings, and didn't even want to take any compliments from him. That's clearly not his style.

And if you think about Vegeta's endeavors thus far:

• He acquired god ki not from the ritual, but through his own devices as Goku put it. Yes he was trained by Whis to an extent but if the anime is anything to go by, he mostly had to learn it himself while Whis provided the regimens/training grounds for doing it.
• He trained by himself and came up with the clever SSG-B switcheroo to overcome Black.
• He learned CSSB by himself.
• And he wanted to achieve UI first before Goku because he, in his own words, he was done chasing after Goku. But when Goku got UI "Omen" before him, or UI in general, Vegeta has decided not to play that game anymore and go about gaining strength his own way. Because that is how he improves the most.

And his battle philosophy is and has always been to become the strongest through pure power, to beat the opponent in front of him, to win and nothing else. Which, as Whis clearly puts it, not in line with the principle of UI, if the lectures we got from Roshi is anything to go by:

"We don't do martial arts to win. We do it to conquer ourselves."

The clear contrast between Goku and Vegeta's philosophies could not be anymore clear. Goku's martial arts teachings will naturally lead to UI, whereas Vegeta, who was raised as a pure battle-aggressive Saiyan, who's always been solo could never. At first I really did think Vegeta regressed as a character but now I really appreciate how Toyo laid out the different philosophies between Goku and Vegeta, which was the entire objective of his speech to Jiren. He's still the same Vegeta, but now we see it out loud.

Thank you. That's an in canon analysis.

[Miracles]

I may be the only one that just realized this but It seems after reading Viz and mangastream Goku did indeed use Kaioken Blue. It's stated by Krillin in both translations that Goku indeed was using Kaioken.
Even the aura is Kaioken like. Did Herms ever chime in on these particular events through translation checking?

I hesitate to debate semantics with you again...but that's not what was stated. Tenshinhan asked if it was similar to the Kaio-ken, and Kuririn riffed off the thought. Same structure in a different context:

A: I think he'll enjoy it. It's a fruit that tastes tart but somewhat sweet.
B: Ah, does it taste like apples?
C: Apples? He's never liked those before.

At no point was the fruit in question ever said to be apples, only referenced in comparison. And in so doing apples are eliminated as a possibility, because if they were apples you wouldn't compare them to apples. So it's not Kaio-ken.

I was just asking. I'm not into debating semantics. It's black or white.

[Lord Beerus]

No we don't know that his role in the anime is minimal it is literally the opposite. He plays as big of a role in the anime as the manga, he has to approve everything.

I'll let TKA address the Cabba situation if he wants.

You are very wrong about this. Toriyama's seal of approval is meaningless. He "approved" GT, but that doesn't mean he was heavily involved. Toriyama re-scripts and re-draws things for the manga that get published. He directly oversees Toyotaros work, and makes corrections as he sees fit. There has never been an interview that implies he has even close to that level of involvement with the anime. Why would he? That's not what he does.

He's become more involved with the film than any of the Super anime, but the nature of the films are different because Toriyama writes the majority of the script (as opposed to just an outline).

Toriyama does have a good amount of involvement in with anime. Not to the extended extent of the manga, where he's literally correcting drawings or changing dialogue, but it's still significant changes to the direction Toei wanted to originally take with the anime.

Jiren's backstory and Toppo's general character were changes made as a result of suggestions Toei made directly to Toriyama about what kind of personality Jiren should have had. Toei coming up with Kale and showing it Toriyama lead to him personally creating an entire new character (Caulifla). And the creation of Caulifla snowballed into Kefla becoming a thing.