"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

Michsi
I Live Here
Posts: 4557
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2010 5:10 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Michsi » Sun Oct 27, 2019 3:40 am

BWri wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:49 am
Michsi wrote: Sat Oct 26, 2019 1:13 pm I disagree with this interpretation- what you are describing makes sense on paper, but he's not an unfeeling character that is capable of these hardhearted decision on the spot.

But he is. In the Cell saga, for whatever reason, probably a strategic one, he let Cell absorb that rich human. In the Buu saga, as you mention below, he allowed Buu to wipe out humanity for a strategic advantage. Also in the Buu saga, he basically sentenced himself and Gotenks to death in order to trap Buu in the Room of Spirit and Time, (I believe he thought Dende was dead at the time). Before he knew Whis was a badass who trained GoD's, he attempted to use him as a hostage to prevent Beerus from destroying Earth. He's basically shown to be the pragmatic one of the group. Of course he would make the hardhearted decisions. He's the first one that would.
He didn't allow it - it happened faster than he expected and he witnessing something that made him freeze. When he has a plan in mind the story tells us what it is, this one was just for shock effect to let us know how horrible Cell was. The Boo Saga example I mentioned because he had a moment to think and come to a decision - one that he struggled with- and in the end it was for nothing. (Also no, Dende and the others were alive while he was in the RoSAT)
It's the same thing as when he sacrificed his life for Gohan. He knew that his death meant the death of Kami and therefore no more dragon balls so Gohan and co. could've been brought back, but his instinctual fear of Gohan getting killed at all prompted him to act before he thought. He is now at a place where this same instinctual response can be extended to characters that he isn't that close with. That's a sign he's more compassionate. Hence him also being against killing the three Macaronis.
Not really. It still bought some time, likely a few extra minutes for the boys. He instantly regretted it, but really, what else was he to do? Buu would've probably just killed everyone on the lookout anyway then eventually wipeout humanity. The hope would be that he doesn't decide to destroy the lookout, because there goes Goten and Trunks with it. I mean, he could've tried luring him away to fight somewhere else, but realistically the fight wouldn't have lasted long and Buu wouldn't be interested anyway.
Not it didn't. That was the point of that scene, the futility of that decision. And it might've been a lesson for him as well - to maybe not immediately jump to making the hardhearted decisions as they rarely pay off.

Again, what he did was humane and right and I would've far more disappointed in his characterization being written as someone that sees someone falling to their death and he just lets it happen.

User avatar
Tai Lung
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1877
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:38 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Tai Lung » Sun Oct 27, 2019 12:30 pm

Miracles wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:58 am
Tai Lung wrote: Sat Oct 26, 2019 10:41 pm
Miracles wrote: Sat Oct 26, 2019 3:06 pm
No, Goku clearly stated that he was in a "life and death situation" when he activated UI last time. That means in the TOP against Jiren. Merus said they need to recreate that situation, hence why Goku told Merus to come at him to kill. Merus can't sacrifice himself like 17. So Goku and Merus is talking about recreating the external factor for the stage of UI by going at Goku like Jiren did. Your way out of bounds here.

Are you reading the story?
here a scene similar to the sacrifice of 17 and others
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJqYHcetXc8

still is needs an external physical force that is the trigger to achieve that

How does it change here that the situation is not the same in the second scene in the manga? ....

goku is not fighting with jiren
jiren wasn't even expelling energy
so there is no reason for it to break its limits at that time

Now it is only necessary for someone to sacrifice for goku to get the UI? because that is what everyone is telling me and that is something that literally has not been said only assumptions.
So why doesn't Goku just try to remember that moment?

is the reason I says it doesn't work the new premise with seen before
The anime's UI literally did a friendship boost for Goku in that clip. That isn't what the manga used to gain UI in the TOP ever.
Now you are not paying attention ....
Goku need to be tired, be free from distractions and receive the attack of Jiren as a trigger for the UI.

in the manga only the sacrifice of 17? so only friendship boost

User avatar
OhHiRenan
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 296
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:44 pm
Location: MA
Contact:

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by OhHiRenan » Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:00 pm

in the manga only the sacrifice of 17? so only friendship boost
You need to analyze beyond the surface level. It seems like most readers only look at the text and look at the pictures without really digesting what's happening in any given panel. 99% of the time, details like this can be cleared up just by revisiting the chapter and actually looking at it.

17's sacrifice isn't what triggered Goku going into Ultra Instinct. It's not a friendship boost. That was just one single beat in a series of intense moments in a high stress environment one chapter after Kame Sen'nin quite literally gave Goku a lesson that referenced all of his previous training.

Toyotaro does not frame things well most of the time, but the only way he could be clearer with Goku & UI in the Tournament of Power is if Goku looked directly at the audience and explained basic subtext.

User avatar
Tai Lung
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1877
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:38 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Tai Lung » Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:30 pm

OhHiRenan wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:00 pm
in the manga only the sacrifice of 17? so only friendship boost
You need to analyze beyond the surface level. It seems like most readers only look at the text and look at the pictures without really digesting what's happening in any given panel. 99% of the time, details like this can be cleared up just by revisiting the chapter and actually looking at it.

17's sacrifice isn't what triggered Goku going into Ultra Instinct. It's not a friendship boost. That was just one single beat in a series of intense moments in a high stress environment one chapter after Kame Sen'nin quite literally gave Goku a lesson that referenced all of his previous training.

Toyotaro does not frame things well most of the time, but the only way he could be clearer with Goku & UI in the Tournament of Power is if Goku looked directly at the audience and explained basic subtext.
if you read my comments ... I was not the one who mentions friendship boost first ... but I mention it now because it seems ironic that others say that in the anime when it becomes clear that an external physical effort is needed, while in manga that situation does not happen ... although Merus explains that he needs to recreate that situation in a fight ...

it was a life or death situation, ok but broly too and the UI did not appear


Michsi
I Live Here
Posts: 4557
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2010 5:10 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Michsi » Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:20 pm

TheRed259 wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:16 pm While I was reading the most recent chapter, I thought that Piccolo would invent a new technique, something that his foe can't know but I was wrong.
Neat idea. but I'm pretty sure Vegeta's the only one that's gonna show a new technique this arc :/

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 3760
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sun Oct 27, 2019 3:30 pm

Tai Lung wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 12:30 pm
Miracles wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:58 am
Tai Lung wrote: Sat Oct 26, 2019 10:41 pm

here a scene similar to the sacrifice of 17 and others
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJqYHcetXc8

still is needs an external physical force that is the trigger to achieve that

How does it change here that the situation is not the same in the second scene in the manga? ....

goku is not fighting with jiren
jiren wasn't even expelling energy
so there is no reason for it to break its limits at that time

Now it is only necessary for someone to sacrifice for goku to get the UI? because that is what everyone is telling me and that is something that literally has not been said only assumptions.
So why doesn't Goku just try to remember that moment?

is the reason I says it doesn't work the new premise with seen before
The anime's UI literally did a friendship boost for Goku in that clip. That isn't what the manga used to gain UI in the TOP ever.
Now you are not paying attention ....
Goku need to be tired, be free from distractions and receive the attack of Jiren as a trigger for the UI.

in the manga only the sacrifice of 17? so only friendship boost
Wrong, in the manga, Goku FIRST activated UI after focusing on his past teachings [From Roshi] just before Jiren was about to eliminate him from the TOP. That is an external factor of life and death and keeping emotions under control to achieve UI.

17's sacrifice wasn't what allowed Goku to activate UI. He clearly stated he won't let his surroundings dictate his emotions after 17's death. He REMAINED calm through all that was around him.

Merus said he and Goku need to recreate the TOP's atmosphere of life and death. So Goku literally tells Merus to COME AT HIM READY TO KILL. Does this sound like Merus is going to explode himself like 17 did in order for Goku to achieve UI? Or is he going to come at Goku like Jiren was THROUGH FIGHTING, trying to KILL Goku, as Goku requested him to do?

Read the chapter carefully.

User avatar
Tai Lung
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1877
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:38 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Tai Lung » Sun Oct 27, 2019 3:56 pm

Miracles wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 3:30 pm Goku FIRST activated UI after focusing on his past teachings [From Roshi] just before Jiren was about to eliminate him from the TOP. That is an external factor of life and death and keeping emotions under control to achieve UI.
yes I said that
Miracles wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 3:30 pm 17's sacrifice wasn't what allowed Goku to activate UI. He clearly stated he won't let his surroundings dictate his emotions after 17's death. He REMAINED calm through all that was around him. .
you were the one who started with that ... it wasn't me
but here ... there is no external factor because goku stopped fighting and jiren was calm
and according to merus a physical trigger is required in a fight (opponent) to recreate the situation ... but at that time there was none.
Miracles wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 3:30 pm Merus said he and Goku need to recreate the TOP's atmosphere of life and death. So Goku literally tells Merus to COME AT HIM READY TO KILL. Does this sound like Merus is going to explode himself like 17 did in order for Goku to achieve UI? Or is he going to come at Goku like Jiren was THROUGH FIGHTING, trying to KILL Goku, as Goku requested him to do?

Read the chapter carefully.
in the second scene ... there is no external factor because goku stopped fighting and jiren was calm
Now you will tell me the situation has not changed ... so why he didn't use it with broly the situation was life or death too

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 3760
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:07 pm

Tai Lung wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 3:56 pm
Miracles wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 3:30 pm Goku FIRST activated UI after focusing on his past teachings [From Roshi] just before Jiren was about to eliminate him from the TOP. That is an external factor of life and death and keeping emotions under control to achieve UI.
yes I said that
Miracles wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 3:30 pm 17's sacrifice wasn't what allowed Goku to activate UI. He clearly stated he won't let his surroundings dictate his emotions after 17's death. He REMAINED calm through all that was around him. .
you were the one who started with that ... it wasn't me
but here ... there is no external factor because goku stopped fighting and jiren was calm
and according to merus a physical trigger is required in a fight (opponent) to recreate the situation ... but at that time there was none.
Miracles wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 3:30 pm Merus said he and Goku need to recreate the TOP's atmosphere of life and death. So Goku literally tells Merus to COME AT HIM READY TO KILL. Does this sound like Merus is going to explode himself like 17 did in order for Goku to achieve UI? Or is he going to come at Goku like Jiren was THROUGH FIGHTING, trying to KILL Goku, as Goku requested him to do?

Read the chapter carefully.
in the second scene ... there is no external factor because goku stopped fighting and jiren was calm
Now you will tell me the situation has not changed ... so why he didn't use it with broly the situation was life or death too
Why are you bringing Broly up? Goku had an escape valve via Piccolo. He ran from Broly and used fusion. How does Jiren not fighting Goku for a brief moment change the dangerous atmosphere of the TOP? Or the fact that they are STILL fighting for their universes survival? I didn't bring up 17 BTW. If you look back you brought 17 up. If you said that Goku first activated UI when Jiren was about to finish him [after Roshi's lecture] then why are you even claiming there is a retcon? If Merus says they need to recreate that scene of life and death and Goku tells Merus to come at him ready to kill, continuing the same theme from the TOP why is this even being discussed?

User avatar
nato25
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1420
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:17 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by nato25 » Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:34 pm

Miracles wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:07 pm
Tai Lung wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 3:56 pm
Miracles wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 3:30 pm Goku FIRST activated UI after focusing on his past teachings [From Roshi] just before Jiren was about to eliminate him from the TOP. That is an external factor of life and death and keeping emotions under control to achieve UI.
yes I said that
Miracles wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 3:30 pm 17's sacrifice wasn't what allowed Goku to activate UI. He clearly stated he won't let his surroundings dictate his emotions after 17's death. He REMAINED calm through all that was around him. .
you were the one who started with that ... it wasn't me
but here ... there is no external factor because goku stopped fighting and jiren was calm
and according to merus a physical trigger is required in a fight (opponent) to recreate the situation ... but at that time there was none.
Miracles wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 3:30 pm Merus said he and Goku need to recreate the TOP's atmosphere of life and death. So Goku literally tells Merus to COME AT HIM READY TO KILL. Does this sound like Merus is going to explode himself like 17 did in order for Goku to achieve UI? Or is he going to come at Goku like Jiren was THROUGH FIGHTING, trying to KILL Goku, as Goku requested him to do?

Read the chapter carefully.
in the second scene ... there is no external factor because goku stopped fighting and jiren was calm
Now you will tell me the situation has not changed ... so why he didn't use it with broly the situation was life or death too
Why are you bringing Broly up? Goku had an escape valve via Piccolo. He ran from Broly and used fusion. How does Jiren not fighting Goku for a brief moment change the dangerous atmosphere of the TOP? Or the fact that they are STILL fighting for their universes survival? I didn't bring up 17 BTW. If you look back you brought 17 up. If you said that Goku first activated UI when Jiren was about to finish him [after Roshi's lecture] then why are you even claiming there is a retcon? If Merus says they need to recreate that scene of life and death and Goku tells Merus to come at him ready to kill, continuing the same theme from the TOP why is this even being discussed?
Woah, calm down guys. You make an interesting point that during the TOP fusion wasn't really an option so UI was it if they wanted to beat Jiren.

The Broly movie is an interesting case though because Vegeta used SSBE and we don't really know if that can be accessed at any time or also needs some sort of desperation trigger.

I think you're reading too much into it though. UI just needs an absolute last hope trigger. Merus attacking Goku will trigger something similar and ultra instinct will most likely come out (although I hope it fails which would be a nice twist)

User avatar
Tai Lung
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1877
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:38 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Tai Lung » Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:50 pm

Miracles wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:07 pm
Tai Lung wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 3:56 pm
Miracles wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 3:30 pm Goku FIRST activated UI after focusing on his past teachings [From Roshi] just before Jiren was about to eliminate him from the TOP. That is an external factor of life and death and keeping emotions under control to achieve UI.
yes I said that
Miracles wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 3:30 pm 17's sacrifice wasn't what allowed Goku to activate UI. He clearly stated he won't let his surroundings dictate his emotions after 17's death. He REMAINED calm through all that was around him. .
you were the one who started with that ... it wasn't me
but here ... there is no external factor because goku stopped fighting and jiren was calm
and according to merus a physical trigger is required in a fight (opponent) to recreate the situation ... but at that time there was none.
Miracles wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 3:30 pm Merus said he and Goku need to recreate the TOP's atmosphere of life and death. So Goku literally tells Merus to COME AT HIM READY TO KILL. Does this sound like Merus is going to explode himself like 17 did in order for Goku to achieve UI? Or is he going to come at Goku like Jiren was THROUGH FIGHTING, trying to KILL Goku, as Goku requested him to do?

Read the chapter carefully.
in the second scene ... there is no external factor because goku stopped fighting and jiren was calm
Now you will tell me the situation has not changed ... so why he didn't use it with broly the situation was life or death too
Why are you bringing Broly up? Goku had an escape valve via Piccolo. He ran from Broly and used fusion. How does Jiren not fighting Goku for a brief moment change the dangerous atmosphere of the TOP? Or the fact that they are STILL fighting for their universes survival? I didn't bring up 17 BTW. If you look back you brought 17 up. If you said that Goku first activated UI when Jiren was about to finish him [after Roshi's lecture] then why are you even claiming there is a retcon? If Merus says they need to recreate that scene of life and death and Goku tells Merus to come at him ready to kill, continuing the same theme from the TOP why is this even being discussed?
because now you're telling me that only a situation of life or death is necessary to be a trigger for the UI which is not so ... a influence of power in combat is necessary
Broly could have destroyed the entire planet and killing everyone at any moment.
In the tournament, Vegeta was there ...
goku and vegeta could do the fusion in the tournament
sorry that excuse doesn't work
Miracles wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:07 pm If you look back you brought 17 up
Miracles wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:07 pm
The anime's UI literally did a friendship boost for Goku in that clip. That isn't what the manga used to gain UI in the TOP ever.
are your words

User avatar
TKA
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1109
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:26 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Sun Oct 27, 2019 6:26 pm

This discussion is in such bad faith.

Why would you assume the manga is referencing the anime when no such statement was ever given by anyone?

This discussion is bad because, simply put, the onus of proof should be on people making the claim that the manga is referencing the anime.

You don’t debate flat earthers from the position that the earth is flat and you’re trying to prove it’s round; you debate that the earth is round and what proof do they have that it’s flat.

Give me an argument for why I should throw out the idea that a story is consistent and congruent only with what it presents and instead embrace that Toyotaro would try to invalidate his own work by referencing the anime.
The Creatives who inspire me: Akira Toriyama, George Lucas, Chris Nolan, J. R. R. Tolkien and Zack Snyder


http://i.imgur.com/XAnj7Yi.jpg

You saw Batman v Superman? Is it the Ultimate Edition? No? Then you haven't seen Batman v Superman. Also, the Snyder Cut is the greatest, non-deconstructionist ensemble comic book film ever made.

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 3760
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sun Oct 27, 2019 7:06 pm

Tai Lung wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:50 pm
Miracles wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:07 pm
Tai Lung wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 3:56 pm

yes I said that



you were the one who started with that ... it wasn't me
but here ... there is no external factor because goku stopped fighting and jiren was calm
and according to merus a physical trigger is required in a fight (opponent) to recreate the situation ... but at that time there was none.



in the second scene ... there is no external factor because goku stopped fighting and jiren was calm
Now you will tell me the situation has not changed ... so why he didn't use it with broly the situation was life or death too
Why are you bringing Broly up? Goku had an escape valve via Piccolo. He ran from Broly and used fusion. How does Jiren not fighting Goku for a brief moment change the dangerous atmosphere of the TOP? Or the fact that they are STILL fighting for their universes survival? I didn't bring up 17 BTW. If you look back you brought 17 up. If you said that Goku first activated UI when Jiren was about to finish him [after Roshi's lecture] then why are you even claiming there is a retcon? If Merus says they need to recreate that scene of life and death and Goku tells Merus to come at him ready to kill, continuing the same theme from the TOP why is this even being discussed?
because now you're telling me that only a situation of life or death is necessary to be a trigger for the UI which is not so ... a influence of power in combat is necessary
Broly could have destroyed the entire planet and killing everyone at any moment.
In the tournament, Vegeta was there ...
goku and vegeta could do the fusion in the tournament
sorry that excuse doesn't work
Miracles wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:07 pm If you look back you brought 17 up
Miracles wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:07 pm
The anime's UI literally did a friendship boost for Goku in that clip. That isn't what the manga used to gain UI in the TOP ever.
are your words
The quote you got from me had nothing to do with 17. You brought up 17 concerning Goku's second transformation to UI when he sacrificed himself. Which had nothing to do with Jiren's external power. In the second scene Goku was STILL threatened. It doesn't matter if Jiren and Goku briefly were not fighting, the situation [external factor] of life and death of U7's potential erasure is still in vogue.

I never said they couldn't fuse in the TOP, did I? I simply told you that bringing up Broly's situation is meaningless to this discussion.

User avatar
Tai Lung
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1877
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:38 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Tai Lung » Sun Oct 27, 2019 7:37 pm

TKA wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 6:26 pm Why would you assume the manga is referencing the anime when no such statement was ever given by anyone?.

Give me an argument for why I should throw out the idea that a story is consistent and congruent only with what it presents and instead embrace that Toyotaro would try to invalidate his own work by referencing the anime.
because the author has to do with both anime and manga
Merus explains that to recreate the situation he have to have a fight to the death with goku
Image
the same that ... 0:19
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tPmadKxSmk
it is not the first time that happen, again vegeta and cabba talk about the SSJ Legendary and only in one version does it make sense

Miracles wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 7:06 pm In the second scene Goku was STILL threatened. It doesn't matter if Jiren and Goku briefly were not fighting, the situation [external factor] of life and death of U7's potential erasure is still in vogue.

I never said they couldn't fuse in the TOP, did I? I simply told you that bringing up Broly's situation is meaningless to this discussion.
At least now you understand my point
It has to do with it ... at least if you want to show that only the situation is important even though there were no fights at that time ...
The opportunities and danger were basically the same with broly but there was no UI so the situation doesn't matter ... what matters is the external power of the opponent this

examples
{Scanlation removed by Moderator.}

this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irSoaOXhbGw

this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJqYHcetXc8

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 3760
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sun Oct 27, 2019 7:45 pm

Tai Lung wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 7:37 pmAt least now you understand my point
It has to do with it ... at least if you want to show that only the situation is important even though there were no fights at that time ...
The opportunities and danger were basically the same with broly but there was no UI so the situation doesn't matter ... what matters is the external power of the opponent this

examples
{Scanlation removed by Moderator.}

this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irSoaOXhbGw

this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJqYHcetXc8
Anyone that could put Goku in a life or death situation demonstrates the external power of the opponent. Jiren did it in the TOP and Merus is about to do it in this arc. Which means the manga continued the same theme, therefore it is not a retcon like you claimed. I don't even think you understand your point...Cause nothing you post proves the manga did a retcon.

User avatar
Tai Lung
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1877
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:38 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Tai Lung » Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:11 pm

Miracles wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 7:45 pm
Tai Lung wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 7:37 pmAt least now you understand my point
It has to do with it ... at least if you want to show that only the situation is important even though there were no fights at that time ...
The opportunities and danger were basically the same with broly but there was no UI so the situation doesn't matter ... what matters is the external power of the opponent this

examples
{Scanlation removed by Moderator.}

this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irSoaOXhbGw

this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJqYHcetXc8
Anyone that could put Goku in a life or death situation demonstrates the external power of the opponent. Jiren did it in the TOP and Merus is about to do it in this arc. Which means the manga continued the same theme, therefore it is not a retcon like you claimed. I don't even think you understand your point...Cause nothing you post proves the manga did a retcon.
The last thing Merus said was said before in the tournament ...? no, they said other something else
and the last mentioned by merus is consistent with the above? no, because the second time an external power was not necessary goku did it freeing his mind of distractions ...

It seems clear to me that before they thought of something else ... but now they preferred to go with the premise similar to that of anime so is a retcon :roll:

annyway.... I pass ... I have repeated that many times :roll:

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 3760
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:24 pm

Tai Lung wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:11 pm
Miracles wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 7:45 pm
Tai Lung wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 7:37 pmAt least now you understand my point
It has to do with it ... at least if you want to show that only the situation is important even though there were no fights at that time ...
The opportunities and danger were basically the same with broly but there was no UI so the situation doesn't matter ... what matters is the external power of the opponent this

examples
{Scanlation removed by Moderator.}

this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irSoaOXhbGw

this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJqYHcetXc8
Anyone that could put Goku in a life or death situation demonstrates the external power of the opponent. Jiren did it in the TOP and Merus is about to do it in this arc. Which means the manga continued the same theme, therefore it is not a retcon like you claimed. I don't even think you understand your point...Cause nothing you post proves the manga did a retcon.
The last thing Merus said was said before in the tournament ...? no, they said other something else
and the last mentioned by merus is consistent with the above? no, because the second time an external power was not necessary goku did it freeing his mind of distractions ...

It seems clear to me that before they thought of something else ... but now they preferred to go with the premise similar to that of anime so is a retcon :roll:

annyway.... I pass ... I have repeated that many times :roll:
You are in denial of the facts...

The first time, Goku transformed into UI, was when Jiren was about to eliminate him after Roshi's speech. Second transformation, Goku said he won't let his emotions be controlled by the circumstances while standing in front of Jiren. Then immediately faces off against Jiren . Third and complete transformation; Goku calmed his mind when he transformed into the complete UI WHILE Jiren was powering up in his face. Finally, Merus just stated he and Goku need to recreate that situation from the TOP. So Goku confirms and states to come at him ready to kill.

All of this continues the manga's theme of Goku calming his emotions in the face of danger [external power of opponent] to get UI. This isn't a retcon Toyotaro stole from the anime.

User avatar
Yasai9001
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 143
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:26 am
Contact:

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Yasai9001 » Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:25 pm

So now we know that the next time Goku ought to attain Ultra Instinct (if it be against Moro), is if something shocking happens and Goku is able to keep his emotions intact.

For the people that don't want to believe that there have been no retcons yet, just gonna have to wait until the next time Goku gets UI in the Manga because I can assure a lot of you that it'll be a moment in where Goku will have to keep his composure and clear his mind.

User avatar
Tai Lung
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1877
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:38 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Tai Lung » Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:38 pm

Miracles wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:24 pm
Tai Lung wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:11 pm
Miracles wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 7:45 pm

Anyone that could put Goku in a life or death situation demonstrates the external power of the opponent. Jiren did it in the TOP and Merus is about to do it in this arc. Which means the manga continued the same theme, therefore it is not a retcon like you claimed. I don't even think you understand your point...Cause nothing you post proves the manga did a retcon.
The last thing Merus said was said before in the tournament ...? no, they said other something else
and the last mentioned by merus is consistent with the above? no, because the second time an external power was not necessary goku did it freeing his mind of distractions ...

It seems clear to me that before they thought of something else ... but now they preferred to go with the premise similar to that of anime so is a retcon :roll:

annyway.... I pass ... I have repeated that many times :roll:
You are in denial of the facts...

The first time, Goku transformed into UI, was when Jiren was about to eliminate him after Roshi's speech. Second transformation, Goku said he won't let his emotions be controlled by the circumstances while standing in front of Jiren. Then immediately faces off against Jiren . Third and complete transformation; Goku calmed his mind when he transformed into the complete UI WHILE Jiren was powering up in his face. Finally, Merus just stated he and Goku need to recreate that situation from the TOP. So Goku confirms and states to come at him ready to kill.

All of this continues the manga's theme of Goku calming his emotions in the face of danger [external power of opponent] to get UI. This isn't a retcon Toyotaro stole from the anime.
the first is a fact .. yes
the second one is not what I discuss since goku and jiren is not fighting there is still danger you say? again broly,
Goku said he won't let his emotions be controlled by the circumstances ok that was the only thing that had been said before in the entire tournament
WHILE Jiren was powering up in his face that is this "primordial" and it is only happen a in the first and third

anyway ... I wouldn't say steal because nobody can steal from himself ,the author works in both versions ... and both ideas can were executed differently ...

User avatar
TKA
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1109
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:26 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Sun Oct 27, 2019 11:07 pm

Tai Lung wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 7:37 pm
TKA wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 6:26 pm Why would you assume the manga is referencing the anime when no such statement was ever given by anyone?.

Give me an argument for why I should throw out the idea that a story is consistent and congruent only with what it presents and instead embrace that Toyotaro would try to invalidate his own work by referencing the anime.
because the author has to do with both anime and manga
Merus explains that to recreate the situation he have to have a fight to the death with goku
Image
the same that ... 0:19
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tPmadKxSmk
it is not the first time that happen, again vegeta and cabba talk about the SSJ Legendary and only in one version does it make sense

Miracles wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 7:06 pm In the second scene Goku was STILL threatened. It doesn't matter if Jiren and Goku briefly were not fighting, the situation [external factor] of life and death of U7's potential erasure is still in vogue.

I never said they couldn't fuse in the TOP, did I? I simply told you that bringing up Broly's situation is meaningless to this discussion.
At least now you understand my point
It has to do with it ... at least if you want to show that only the situation is important even though there were no fights at that time ...
The opportunities and danger were basically the same with broly but there was no UI so the situation doesn't matter ... what matters is the external power of the opponent this

examples
{Scanlation removed by Moderator.}

this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irSoaOXhbGw

this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJqYHcetXc8
Yeah, sorry bud, but none of this is compelling enough evidence to convince me that Toyotaro is discrediting his own work to prop up the anime.

My reading of it aside, Rebel Instinct a few pages back very clearly and thoroughly explained it on a level the typical DB operates on. Nothing is contradicted.

My reading of it, however, says that most of you are taking things too literally and just don’t know much about stories. No writer is going to have a character say:

“Man, to achieve Ultra Instinct you’re going to have to use the culmination of everything you learned in the past, be put in a do or die situation, have a still heart not tainted by fury.”

That’s clunky, expositional dialogue that tells the audience what we already know. That will never be how this story is told.
The Creatives who inspire me: Akira Toriyama, George Lucas, Chris Nolan, J. R. R. Tolkien and Zack Snyder


http://i.imgur.com/XAnj7Yi.jpg

You saw Batman v Superman? Is it the Ultimate Edition? No? Then you haven't seen Batman v Superman. Also, the Snyder Cut is the greatest, non-deconstructionist ensemble comic book film ever made.

Post Reply