"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Nokra]

The moro arc is the manga has been really good so far. Moro is also a cool character with nice abilites. I don't see any problems.

[PFM18]

So it's my fault that you have this apparent tendency to convey this extremely condescending demeanor?You have claimed more or less that your opinion is an objective fact on several occasions now and quite literally have said that anyone who disagrees does not understand art. That doesn't really have much to do with me commenting on your Super posts.

It's quite the opposite - any criticisms in terms of narrative structure or the overall end product of various teams working together being conclusively mediocre are dismissed because I don't seem to understand "art". "It's all subjective!" "You can't criticize art!" etc.

The whole point of art is the craftsmanship involved. That is the artistry. Art is not something you shoddly cobble together and throw out into the world of consumers free from any criticism because art is "subjective". Super is not a Pollock painting, it is not an exercise in the abstract - it is a narrative following a plot structure. It is not groundbreaking, it is not breaking the rules in order to transcend the genre. It is doing quite the opposite actually, using many tropes and plot points from it's collective genre in order to build a story and it does so poorly. There are established rules within storytelling that serve a function, and of course they can be broken but that requires a mastery over the tools and skills involved over the craft which are nowhere near present in the series. That does not mean complex, that does not mean overly deep or heavy. Sometimes it can be pretty damn simple.

But to just throw away any sort of criticism because of some wallflower argument that "all art is subjective" is such a insanely ignorant view on what art actually encompasses. If you can't see how Super is incredibly half assed, rushed, and poorly constructed then you are laying the foundation for mediocrity from studios who are all too willing to give you the most uninspired garbage stamped with your favorite franchise tag and sell it for lucrative profits.

Enjoyment however, is subjective. You can enjoy it, fine. I have my own guilty pleasures, but I would never dare say they are good by any means.

I have to agree. Especially with the bold. I always thought Super was half of what it's predecessor was.

any criticisms in terms of narrative structure or the overall end product of various teams working together being conclusively mediocre are dismissed because I don't seem to understand "art". "It's all subjective!" "You can't criticize art!" etc.

But to just throw away any sort of criticism because of some wallflower argument that "all art is subjective" is such a insanely ignorant view on what art actually encompasses.

Nobody is saying that. Nobody has ever said that. Nobody is "tossing away criticism" or telling you that you can't criticize it. That's either intellectually disingenuous or you are completely misinterpreting what you are responding to.

You can criticize it all that you want, but you're just blatantly wrong if you claim that there's any sort of objective fact regarding it's quality. Any sort of assertion of quality is subject to your criteria as far as what makes the work good, how you interpret the work, etc etc. It is inherently influenced by the individual and how they assess their experience with the work, there's absolutely no definitive facts regarding the quality or really anything objective regarding the quality. Any assessment of quality is subjective in nature. You claiming that your opinion is somehow an objective truth is frankly you just being delusional.

Do you think Toriyama criticizing the DBS anime's quality of art is subjective?

It's his opinion. That's literally the definition of subjective. I certainly agree with him, along with many others I would imagine, but that doesn't change the meaning of the word "subjective".

[Miracles]

Do you think Toriyama criticizing the DBS anime's quality of art is subjective?

Toriyama is just as much a human being subject to different standards and ideas of quality as anyone else, so it would actually be factually wrong to say it isn't subjective. The debate about whether his own opinions on his own franchise are even worth listening to is also a long-dead and tiresome discussion. If a franchise's creators got to decide what people thought was good about it, nothing would ever be considered bad.

I don't think Toriyama is just like anyone else, he is the authoritative standard on his own product. If he says this isn't the way his DB world is suppose to be, that makes it fact.

It's quite the opposite - any criticisms in terms of narrative structure or the overall end product of various teams working together being conclusively mediocre are dismissed because I don't seem to understand "art". "It's all subjective!" "You can't criticize art!" etc.

The whole point of art is the craftsmanship involved. That is the artistry. Art is not something you shoddly cobble together and throw out into the world of consumers free from any criticism because art is "subjective". Super is not a Pollock painting, it is not an exercise in the abstract - it is a narrative following a plot structure. It is not groundbreaking, it is not breaking the rules in order to transcend the genre. It is doing quite the opposite actually, using many tropes and plot points from it's collective genre in order to build a story and it does so poorly. There are established rules within storytelling that serve a function, and of course they can be broken but that requires a mastery over the tools and skills involved over the craft which are nowhere near present in the series. That does not mean complex, that does not mean overly deep or heavy. Sometimes it can be pretty damn simple.

But to just throw away any sort of criticism because of some wallflower argument that "all art is subjective" is such a insanely ignorant view on what art actually encompasses. If you can't see how Super is incredibly half assed, rushed, and poorly constructed then you are laying the foundation for mediocrity from studios who are all too willing to give you the most uninspired garbage stamped with your favorite franchise tag and sell it for lucrative profits.

Enjoyment however, is subjective. You can enjoy it, fine. I have my own guilty pleasures, but I would never dare say they are good by any means.

I have to agree. Especially with the bold. I always thought Super was half of what it's predecessor was.

Nobody is saying that. Nobody has ever said that. Nobody is "tossing away criticism" or telling you that you can't criticize it. That's either intellectually disingenuous or you are completely misinterpreting what you are responding to.

You can criticize it all that you want, but you're just blatantly wrong if you claim that there's any sort of objective fact regarding it's quality. Any sort of assertion of quality is subject to your criteria as far as what makes the work good, how you interpret the work, etc etc. It is inherently influenced by the individual and how they assess their experience with the work, there's absolutely no definitive facts regarding the quality or really anything objective regarding the quality. Any assessment of quality is subjective in nature. You claiming that your opinion is somehow an objective truth is frankly you just being delusional.

Do you think Toriyama criticizing the DBS anime's quality of art is subjective?

It's his opinion. That's literally the definition of subjective. I certainly agree with him, along with many others I would imagine, but that doesn't change the meaning of the word "subjective".

You are right. It doesn't change the meaning of subjective. However, Toriyama isn't giving his feelings from a fan point. But insight and knowledge from his title as Creator. Which isn't merely an opinion but outright fact on how his DB universe is suppose to look.

[PFM18]

You are right. It doesn't change the meaning of subjective. However, Toriyama isn't giving his feelings from a fan point. But insight and knowledge from his title as Creator. Which isn't merely an opinion but outright fact on how his DB universe is suppose to look.

So....his opinion is a fact then?

[Shaddy]

What a series "should" be is actually also subjective because it's based on the individual's own perception of said series. It's definitely factual that Toriyama decides what he thinks it should be, but that's an opinion all it's own. You can certainly take Toriyama's opinion more seriously than other people's, that'd make sense, but what a series "should" be can wildly differ from person to person.

I mean, by most accounts, if a series does something you don't like, that means it's inherently going against what you think it should do. Even if that's something as vague as being bad versus good (though for obvious reasons that isn't really helpful for discussion).

[HeroR]

DBS Manga Volume 9 Cover:

Spoiler:

So, is this some sort of deodorant commercial? Clearly, Jiren is stinking up a storm while Goku is protected by the minty freshness of Ultra Instinct!

Okay, that made me laugh.

Overall, the entire cover is terrible. Goku and Jiren have those stupid broken bodies and the color is horrible. Toyo just didn't care about the TOP.

[HeroR]

Do you think Toriyama criticizing the DBS anime's quality of art is subjective?

Toriyama is just as much a human being subject to different standards and ideas of quality as anyone else, so it would actually be factually wrong to say it isn't subjective. The debate about whether his own opinions on his own franchise are even worth listening to is also a long-dead and tiresome discussion. If a franchise's creators got to decide what people thought was good about it, nothing would ever be considered bad.

This is the same flawed principle that begets broken statements like this:

If you can't see how Super is incredibly half assed, rushed, and poorly constructed then you are laying the foundation for mediocrity from studios who are all too willing to give you the most uninspired garbage stamped with your favorite franchise tag and sell it for lucrative profits.

The only reason Super being a "half assed, rushed, and poorly constructed" show is a given is because he believes it to be so with such ferocity that he can't imagine others wouldn't view it as such. It wouldn't be wrong to say that supporting Super would make it more likely for other things like Super to emerge, but the idea that it being bad is inherent to them is based solely on one's own opinion. Well, that or the idea that majority rules when discussing these things, but of course that always seems to be conditional to when it can inform that person's argument and never at any other times.

Case in point: if you tell me Tommy Wiseau is the world's greatest actor, I'm gonna disagree with you. Most people would disagree with you, given that he's famous for creating and starring in one of the worst movies ever made. But there's no authority on who gets to decide you're wrong for saying it. There's no rules to this shit. The idea that The Room is one of the worst movies ever isn't an objective, undeniable fact handed down from God, it's just what enough people believed that it became common to know and think about it. But still, someone with very different taste from the majority could genuinely believe it to be a heartfelt drama movie about an ordinary banker being cheated on by his fiancee, and you can't actually tell them they're wrong for any other reason than "you and some other people disagree". A far greater amount of people would pull death of the author on you and claim that it's ironic enjoyment as a comedy is enough that they can claim it to be a good comedy film by removing the context around it, and you can't say they're wrong either. I would certainly say it's a fucking funny movie.

And this is a good thing. Art is constantly shifting, rewriting, breaking and challenging rules people take for granted to evolve, and everyone is always going to think one thing does this successfully while others don't. Saying Super is "not breaking the rules in order to transcend the genre" is still a subjective opinion, supported only by this user's subjective perception that they got from the show. And that's not a wrong perspective. I certainly don't find a ton that's new or amazing about Super, it made a lot of decisions I thought were really fucking stupid, but "I thought" is the key point there. That a thing can be disagreed upon is proof that either A. It's not absolute or B. Someone has an ulterior motive in the discussion. That's why gravity is something everyone who isn't part of a conspiracy theory believes in, but Twilight still had a massive fanbase. It wasn't because those people had horrible taste -- because their taste being horrible is, in itself, an opinion. There's layers to this shit and I constantly see people (well...person) steamrolling them with a false idea of "I'm right I'm just nobody else can deny". It's holding so much weight in one's own idea of a "good show" that it stops registering as the idea and becomes the absolute. Either due to narcissism, a massive lack of self-awareness or both.

I would also liked the add that Toriyama criticized the anime back in 2015 when it was still in the retellings. Unless a new interview came out, he has never said anything else negative about the anime and even approved the anime's staff ideas like Kale and making the Pride Troopers superheroes.

[Shaddy]

I feel like I remember hearing that he could be critical of the anime back in the 90s as well, and I know Torishima was.

Either way it's not a wholesale condemnation of the anime or endorsement of the manga to hear that Toriyama wasn't fond of part of it. And again, his opinion on something isn't law anyway.

[HeroR]

I feel like I remember hearing that he could be critical of the anime back in the 90s as well, and I know Torishima was.

Either way it's not a wholesale condemnation of the anime or endorsement of the manga to hear that Toriyama wasn't fond of part of it. And again, his opinion on something isn't law anyway.

His statement about Dragon Ball Z was targeted at how they characterized Goku, not the produced as a whole. Here is the link: https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... interview/

Overall, I just found it strange to see Toriyama's statement from 2015 being used to say, 'he thought the anime was terrible'. Especially when the statement didn't even say what Toriyama was complaining about and Super wasn't even in its original material at the time.

As for Super being half-ass compared to the original Dragon Ball, from a concept level the original Dragon Ball manga was actually more half-ass since Toriyama couldn't be bothered to plan ahead and wrote week-by-week. In comparison, Super has to be planned ahead by months, so you can't have last minute changes like Cell taking over from Androids 16, 17, and 18, who took over from Androids 19 and 20.

[Miracles]

You are right. It doesn't change the meaning of subjective. However, Toriyama isn't giving his feelings from a fan point. But insight and knowledge from his title as Creator. Which isn't merely an opinion but outright fact on how his DB universe is suppose to look.

So....his opinion is a fact then?

Yes. It's his world, his rules.

[sora_02]

the moro scene killing the namekian was brutal reminded me of that violent style that Dragon Ball had, the assimilation reminded me of multiverse, it would be great to see Picoro in this arc

[TobyS]

the moro scene killing the namekian was brutal reminded me of that violent style that Dragon Ball had, the assimilation reminded me of multiverse, it would be great to see Picoro in this arc

Yeah even if it's not deliberate setting it on Namek and having Namekians running around is going to make you think of Piccolo AND past eras where he was relevant.

I wonder if them being out for ages was an excuse for Piccolo and Bulma to already be on their way. (Perhaps via Whis or earth DBs)

Maybe Piccolo finds the Namekian the same way he finds Nail and bam....

Between this and the next arc being fanservicey (what's more fan servicey than bringing back old characters) I have my hopes up ready to be dashed by the Goku and Vegeta show....

[TKA]

Moro is also a cool character

Care to elaborate? I see nothing unique or interesting in the slightest about him, so I'd like to see what you find cool about him.

[wolflonnie]

Moro is also a cool character

Care to elaborate? I see nothing unique or interesting in the slightest about him, so I'd like to see what you find cool about him.

Yeah. I agree on the fact that he has cool powers, and he's somewhat creepy so bonus points, but I can't commend much else so far.

[Nokra]

Moro is also a cool character

Care to elaborate? I see nothing unique or interesting in the slightest about him, so I'd like to see what you find cool about him.

I saw nothing unique about cell past his first form yet people still like that character. His design is cool and he has cool abilities. what more reason do I need to like a character than that?

[OLKv3]

People have their hands on the new volume, waiting to see what was added

[TobyS]

People have their hands on the new volume, waiting to see what was added

Is there a digital version that has these that's out? Been wanting to pull the trigger in buying the super manga anyway...

[TKA]

Moro is also a cool character

Care to elaborate? I see nothing unique or interesting in the slightest about him, so I'd like to see what you find cool about him.

I saw nothing unique about cell past his first form yet people still like that character. His design is cool and he has cool abilities. what more reason do I need to like a character than that?

I'm not judging you, brother.

The things you highlighted aren't things I care about. If that's all it took for me, then I'd like Janemba, old Broly, Hildegarn, General Rildo, etc.

[Nokra]

Care to elaborate? I see nothing unique or interesting in the slightest about him, so I'd like to see what you find cool about him.

I saw nothing unique about cell past his first form yet people still like that character. His design is cool and he has cool abilities. what more reason do I need to like a character than that?

I'm not judging you, brother.

The things you highlighted aren't things I care about. If that's all it took for me, then I'd like Janemba, old Broly, Hildegarn, General Rildo, etc.

Yeah sure

[Liquir]

DBS Manga Volume 9

Extra Pages:

Spoiler:

Broly and Gogeta:

Spoiler:

Info and Images on the Universes and other characters :
https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1113462070068912129