"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Mon Mar 28, 2022 1:59 pm

batistabus wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 1:35 pm Toyotaro drew Vegeta's Wagamama no Gokui for Volume 18:
now with 50% less crotch bulge
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:19 pm

batistabus wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 1:35 pm Toyotaro drew Vegeta's Wagamama no Gokui for Volume 18:
Did we get confirmation the hair was purple prior to this?

Incidentally I think the form looks much better in color and ESPECIALLY better without the armor. The Majin Vegeta veins are also a great touch.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:27 pm

Yes, I posted just a few pages ago.

There was the promised "first look" at Jump Festa, but we only got to see it because it had been leaked. I don't remember any official entity posting it online.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by FortuneSSJ » Mon Mar 28, 2022 5:37 pm

batistabus wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 1:35 pm Toyotaro drew Vegeta's Wagamama no Gokui for Volume 18:
Good one. I like it more than MUI.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:58 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 1:59 pm
batistabus wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 1:35 pm Toyotaro drew Vegeta's Wagamama no Gokui for Volume 18:
now with 50% less crotch bulge
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:51 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:34 amFor the new generations that grow up with Super, Ultra Instinct will be more iconic than Super Saiyan and Zamasu will be more iconic than Frieza. We think Frieza is more iconic than Zamasu just because we grew up with DBZ; but when you actually think about the Story from an unbiased perspective, Zamasu is way more savage as a villain than Frieza.
Only time will tell. Freeza is still an iconic anime villain decades later while I've only ever heard Zamasu praised among some DB fans. Outside of our fanbase, I've seen him considered as DB's attempt at a modern anime or JRPG trope but not a memorable or developed version of it.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by fleahop » Tue Mar 29, 2022 9:14 am

batistabus wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 1:35 pm Toyotaro drew Vegeta's Wagamama no Gokui for Volume 18:
Wow. It actually looks pretty good here.

Wish we could get more outfits and less forms though.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:20 am

fleahop wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 9:14 am Wish we could get more outfits and less forms though.
I don't mind the forms but I agree about the outfits. I wish they kept the RoF outfits, personally. As for this, I think Wagamama with the blue outfit looks better than I expected, but I really liked the solid black in the uncolored manga...

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:55 am

Skar wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:51 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:34 amFor the new generations that grow up with Super, Ultra Instinct will be more iconic than Super Saiyan and Zamasu will be more iconic than Frieza. We think Frieza is more iconic than Zamasu just because we grew up with DBZ; but when you actually think about the Story from an unbiased perspective, Zamasu is way more savage as a villain than Frieza.
Only time will tell. Freeza is still an iconic anime villain decades later while I've only ever heard Zamasu praised among some DB fans. Outside of our fanbase, I've seen him considered as DB's attempt at a modern anime or JRPG trope but not a memorable or developed version of it.
being iconic is not the same as being popular. Being iconic is when people who have no idea about the franchise can still recognize where it comes from. Example: "five minutes, lol."

Zamasu is no where near that, and likely will never be.

It's all about context. DBZ came at a time in which anime just broke through, and it was many people's first introduction to anime. Super came at a time in which anime is easily accessible. Time had a lot to do why DBZ became ultra popular

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Retan » Tue Mar 29, 2022 6:12 pm

I disagree as DBZ has become Iconic in every area they have pushed it.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Tue Mar 29, 2022 8:10 pm

UpFromTheSkies wrote: Sat Mar 19, 2022 4:28 am
batistabus wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 1:35 pm Toyotaro drew Vegeta's Wagamama no Gokui for Volume 18:
Never though I would say that, but these are good drawings from Toyotaro :)
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Pafupafu » Wed Mar 30, 2022 12:05 am

kemuri07 wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:55 am
Skar wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:51 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:34 amFor the new generations that grow up with Super, Ultra Instinct will be more iconic than Super Saiyan and Zamasu will be more iconic than Frieza. We think Frieza is more iconic than Zamasu just because we grew up with DBZ; but when you actually think about the Story from an unbiased perspective, Zamasu is way more savage as a villain than Frieza.
Only time will tell. Freeza is still an iconic anime villain decades later while I've only ever heard Zamasu praised among some DB fans. Outside of our fanbase, I've seen him considered as DB's attempt at a modern anime or JRPG trope but not a memorable or developed version of it.
being iconic is not the same as being popular. Being iconic is when people who have no idea about the franchise can still recognize where it comes from. Example: "five minutes, lol."

Zamasu is no where near that, and likely will never be.

It's all about context. DBZ came at a time in which anime just broke through, and it was many people's first introduction to anime. Super came at a time in which anime is easily accessible. Time had a lot to do why DBZ became ultra popular
I agree with this wholeheartedly. The villains in the original series have existed for so long, many years before even hitting the US, and have been featured in pretty much every single video game and merchandise run in Dragon Ball’s height of popularity. Freeza was revived for a modern day theatrical film. I don’t see them doing that for Zamasu in 15-20 years.

The fact is that Super as a TV show and even a manga is too much of a anecdote of the original series and squeezed into a set timeframe that everything just feels secondary/B-side to the original run. The movies carry a bit more importance in their existence and I’d say Beerus and Whis have reached the highest height in terms of iconic staples of the core story. Everything else just isn’t an A-side hit, for lack of a better term. That’s why we don’t see merchandise or digital content being pumped out of the other Universe fighters, Moro, or Gas, etc.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Wed Mar 30, 2022 12:28 am

Yuji wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:19 pm Did we get confirmation the hair was purple prior to this?

Incidentally I think the form looks much better in color and ESPECIALLY better without the armor. The Majin Vegeta veins are also a great touch.
Via Jump Festa art and the digital color edition of Volume 17 which came out around a month ago.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Wed Mar 30, 2022 3:49 am

kemuri07 wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:55 amIt's all about context. DBZ came at a time in which anime just broke through, and it was many people's first introduction to anime. Super came at a time in which anime is easily accessible. Time had a lot to do why DBZ became ultra popular
That could be a factor but I don't think Zamasu ranks highly among anime antagonists of the last decade especially comparing ones with the same archetype. I haven't seen many recent anime but I recognize some antagonists without having watched their series. I think Beerus is the most memorable antagonist out of this revival.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Mar 30, 2022 4:09 am

Pafupafu wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 12:05 am
kemuri07 wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:55 am
Skar wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:51 am
Only time will tell. Freeza is still an iconic anime villain decades later while I've only ever heard Zamasu praised among some DB fans. Outside of our fanbase, I've seen him considered as DB's attempt at a modern anime or JRPG trope but not a memorable or developed version of it.
being iconic is not the same as being popular. Being iconic is when people who have no idea about the franchise can still recognize where it comes from. Example: "five minutes, lol."

Zamasu is no where near that, and likely will never be.

It's all about context. DBZ came at a time in which anime just broke through, and it was many people's first introduction to anime. Super came at a time in which anime is easily accessible. Time had a lot to do why DBZ became ultra popular
I agree with this wholeheartedly. The villains in the original series have existed for so long, many years before even hitting the US, and have been featured in pretty much every single video game and merchandise run in Dragon Ball’s height of popularity. Freeza was revived for a modern day theatrical film. I don’t see them doing that for Zamasu in 15-20 years.

The fact is that Super as a TV show and even a manga is too much of a anecdote of the original series and squeezed into a set timeframe that everything just feels secondary/B-side to the original run. The movies carry a bit more importance in their existence and I’d say Beerus and Whis have reached the highest height in terms of iconic staples of the core story. Everything else just isn’t an A-side hit, for lack of a better term. That’s why we don’t see merchandise or digital content being pumped out of the other Universe fighters, Moro, or Gas, etc.

And yet both Cell and Buu were already surpassed by several DBS antagonists in an Official popularity poll:


Goku Black ranked higher than Frieza, Cell, and Buu in another official poll:


And the most recent poll also had Goku Black (who is Zamasu btw) as the highest-ranking villain once again:


Source: https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/Popularity_Polls (therein are also reported all the links to the polls)


Note that 3 official polls have been conducted in the Super era so far, 2 in 2018 and 1 in 2021. So you can't use the argument "well maybe it's recency bias!", because the earliest poll dates back to 2018, when the ToP was airing; 2 years after the conclusion of the Future Trunks arc and the death of Zamasu and Black.

The last poll is the most impressive one to me. Because not only it was conducted 5 years after Goku Black's last appearance (as he "died" in 2016, so to say), but it also shows that, amongst those who voted, he was a fan-favourite who ranked even higher than Future Trunks. He's in the Top 5 with Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan, the "Big 3", who have appeared everywhere since forever. And yet Goku Black, who appeared only in 1 arc, and hasn't appeared in 5 years, is in the Top 5 with them, and surpassed a villain like Frieza (who has way, way more screentime). He also easily surpassed Moro, the villain of the arc that just ended at the time of the poll. Enough said tbh.

I think people here are underestimating one key think about Zamasu and Black: Design.

Regardless of how you feel about it, the idea of an "Evil Goku" and an "Evil Supreme Kai" have been fan-favourites in the fandom for decades, people are interested in these concepts, and so it's only natural that Black and Zamasu would stick out and be remembered. It's just one of those ideas that people have been interested in since forever, which explains why videogames dealt with these ideas a lot (like Demigra, who is an evil Supreme Kai...).

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Wed Mar 30, 2022 9:44 am

Popularity means nothing to me, and doesn't in any way influence whether I enjoy something. People seem to think Turning Red is one of the best Pixar films in years; I think it's an obnoxiously hamfisted story at best.

We were all originally just discussing which villains we like more/less in terms of character, and why. All purely subjective, to be sure, but I find it a more worthwhile (and substantive) topic of conversation than arguing about numbers on a poll.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Krillin1994 » Wed Mar 30, 2022 10:06 am

If I'm reading that 2021 Poll Correctly there were only those 25 characters that could be voted on? So I mean of course Goku Black beats Cell & Buu there since they were not options.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Mar 30, 2022 10:10 am

Krillin1994 wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 10:06 am If I'm reading that 2021 Poll Correctly there were only those 25 characters that could be voted on? So I mean of course Goku Black beats Cell & Buu there since they were not options.
Frieza, who is the most popular DBZ villain and is alive in the storyline, was in the poll but couldn't come close to Goku Black. It's safe to say that Cell and Majin Buu would have been surpassed too, since they have never been more popular than Frieza, who was overtaken by Goku Black in that popularity poll.

Is it really relevant that Cell and Buu are not present, when they wouldn't rank higher than Frieza anyway?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Krillin1994 » Wed Mar 30, 2022 1:21 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 10:10 am
Krillin1994 wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 10:06 am If I'm reading that 2021 Poll Correctly there were only those 25 characters that could be voted on? So I mean of course Goku Black beats Cell & Buu there since they were not options.
Frieza, who is the most popular DBZ villain and is alive in the storyline, was in the poll but couldn't come close to Goku Black. It's safe to say that Cell and Majin Buu would have been surpassed too, since they have never been more popular than Frieza, who was overtaken by Goku Black in that popularity poll.

Is it really relevant that Cell and Buu are not present, when they wouldn't rank higher than Frieza anyway?
Yes but it seems to be based around Super iterations, I mean Namek arc Frieza is on a different level of engagement. RoF was a miserable display of his character. People liked the direction the ToP went with him, but even then ultimately his main moment was just at the end for the side by side shot with Goku, the rest of the time just being 'oh ho ho ho I'm wicked'.

With those depictions of Freeza being more fresh in people's minds, then I mean I would probably place Goku Black higher than Frieza.

But Namek Arc Freeza is a level of lasting iconic. Even now if you mention Dragonball casual people immediately think Z. Goku Black will never have that mainstream draw.

But with that Poll we won't know since there was no option for those other villains. If another poll appears down the line where we can vote on villains and Black scores higher than Buu and Cell, then I'll say fair enough. But my gut is thinking people won't be talking about Goku Black like they do with Freeza, Cell and Buu 30 years after their debuts.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:16 pm

Krillin1994 wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 1:21 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 10:10 am
Krillin1994 wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 10:06 am If I'm reading that 2021 Poll Correctly there were only those 25 characters that could be voted on? So I mean of course Goku Black beats Cell & Buu there since they were not options.
Frieza, who is the most popular DBZ villain and is alive in the storyline, was in the poll but couldn't come close to Goku Black. It's safe to say that Cell and Majin Buu would have been surpassed too, since they have never been more popular than Frieza, who was overtaken by Goku Black in that popularity poll.

Is it really relevant that Cell and Buu are not present, when they wouldn't rank higher than Frieza anyway?
Yes but it seems to be based around Super iterations, I mean Namek arc Frieza is on a different level of engagement. RoF was a miserable display of his character. People liked the direction the ToP went with him, but even then ultimately his main moment was just at the end for the side by side shot with Goku, the rest of the time just being 'oh ho ho ho I'm wicked'.

With those depictions of Freeza being more fresh in people's minds, then I mean I would probably place Goku Black higher than Frieza.

But Namek Arc Freeza is a level of lasting iconic. Even now if you mention Dragonball casual people immediately think Z. Goku Black will never have that mainstream draw.

But with that Poll we won't know since there was no option for those other villains. If another poll appears down the line where we can vote on villains and Black scores higher than Buu and Cell, then I'll say fair enough. But my gut is thinking people won't be talking about Goku Black like they do with Freeza, Cell and Buu 30 years after their debuts.
The bolded is the point I am getting at and the question that is interesting. We already see many people comparing Ultra Instinct to the original Super Saiyan on Namek, because the scene where Goku awakens Mastered Ultra Instinct against Jiren was so iconic, popular, game-breaking.

I mean, I can't speak for you, but I've seen countless people online saying stuff like "Goku unlocking MUI is as epic as the Super Saiyan scene".

It wouldn't surprise me if Super overtakes DBZ for future generations, it is after all a kids' show. For many kids who grew up in the 2010s and in this decade, DBS is their first introduction to Dragon Ball.

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