"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Matches Malone]

If defusing doesn't work, because they may just use the fact 7-3 being an android means he doesn't have a soul, they might pull that to prevent Vegeta from being able to separate him.

I don't see why they'd introduce such concept only to not use it in the very arc that has an unbeatable fused being. That'd be like giving Goku the Zeno button only not to use it. Your idea makes sense, I just don't think they'll take that road, as he may end up being only half android or something like that.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

If defusing doesn't work, because they may just use the fact 7-3 being an android means he doesn't have a soul, they might pull that to prevent Vegeta from being able to separate him.

I don't see why they'd introduce such concept only to not use it in the very arc that has an unbeatable fused being. That'd be like giving Goku the Zeno button only not to use it. Your idea makes sense, I just don't think they'll take that road, as he may end up being only half android or something like that.

The writers can't have Moro be defeated so easily, as without 7-3 he'll just revert back to his frail and weakened state again. Maybe it'll work or the writers will pull something to make sure that Moro still has the advantage over the Z fighters. Moro will pull something to make sure he stays on top during the battle so that he stays a threat.

[Matches Malone]

The writers can't have Moro be defeated so easily, as without 7-3 he'll just revert back to his frail and weakened state again.

The idea may be easy, but actually doing it won't. Look at Cell, on paper, the idea of just punching #18 out of him is easy enough, but look how hard it was to actually pull off. Vegeta's technique may require both him and Moro to stand still for a bit, which will be extremely hard to pull off, as Goku will basically have to hold him in place alone.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

The writers can't have Moro be defeated so easily, as without 7-3 he'll just revert back to his frail and weakened state again.

The idea may be easy, but actually doing it won't. Look at Cell, on paper, the idea of just punching #18 out of him is easy enough, but look how hard it was to actually pull off. Vegeta's technique may require both him and Moro to stand still for a bit, which will be extremely hard to pull off, as Goku will basically have to hold him in place alone.

I agree. But still, I imagine that while Vegeta's unconscious they can't do jack to Moro. The B tier fighters will probably try to distracting Moro, but given how Saganbo wrecked them, its going to be like Moro flicking them away like ants. Goku's tired and UI doesn't feel like showing up at the moment. Moro's just going to end up owning everyone until they can separate him, if thats even possible.

Still, I feel like Moro hasn't made himself too personal to Goku and Vegeta. I mean, outside of the Namekian thing, he hasn't really killed anyone of note. He killed a bunch of innocent populations offscreen mostly, two his own henchmen(Saganbo and Shimorekka). That's not really anything too spectacular. He's probably going to kill one of the B tier fighters if they end up annoying him too much.

[Matches Malone]

I feel like Moro hasn't made himself too personal to Goku and Vegeta. I mean, outside of the Namekian thing, he hasn't really killed anyone of note. He killed a bunch of innocent populations offscreen mostly, two his own henchmen(Saganbo and Shimorekka). That's not really anything too spectacular. He's probably going to kill one of the B tier fighters if they end up annoying him too much.

I completely agree with this. The biggest problem I have with modern DB is how safe it plays things, as by now, a main character should've been killed off. Based on previous events, I just can't see it happening here, or even in the future. Toriyama and the current writers just aren't interested in consequences and being afraid for the characters' safety.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

I feel like Moro hasn't made himself too personal to Goku and Vegeta. I mean, outside of the Namekian thing, he hasn't really killed anyone of note. He killed a bunch of innocent populations offscreen mostly, two his own henchmen(Saganbo and Shimorekka). That's not really anything too spectacular. He's probably going to kill one of the B tier fighters if they end up annoying him too much.

I completely agree with this. The biggest problem I have with modern DB is how safe it plays things, as by now, a main character should've been killed off. Based on previous events, I just can't see it happening here, or even in the future. Toriyama and the current writers just aren't interested in consequences and being afraid for the characters' safety.

Honestly, if anyone had to die, I feel like the only one who'd have impact dying would be Gohan. I mean, 17 faked his death in the ToP, I can't see 18 doing anything suicidal. Piccolo died ReF. The other earthlings are staying clear from the battlefield and aren't suicidal enough to engage with Moro directly. Goku and Vegeta dying would basically damn everyone and now isn't the time for one of the heavy hitters to die. I feel like Moro is going to kill on the Z fighters if they end up being annoying to him and he decides to rid himself of the nuisance.

I mean, Gohan is B+ tier, but seeing how he wouldn't be able to do much against Moro, him dying would at least make Goku and Vegeta realize how much of a menace Moro is and be determined to send his ass to hell. And would write Gohan off of future chapters until they revive him. Though given the dragon balls exist, he'd be revived unless Moro's a demon like his design suggests.

[Matches Malone]

Honestly, if anyone had to die, I feel like the only one who'd have impact dying would be Gohan. I mean, 17 faked his death in the ToP, I can't see 18 doing anything suicidal. Piccolo died ReF.

They missed a huge opportunity with Roshi, as his death after that great speech would've been perfect.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

Honestly, if anyone had to die, I feel like the only one who'd have impact dying would be Gohan. I mean, 17 faked his death in the ToP, I can't see 18 doing anything suicidal. Piccolo died ReF.

They missed a huge opportunity with Roshi, as his death after that great speech would've been perfect.

The writers just aren't really good at killing off the fan favorite characters. With the existence of the dragon balls it damn near impossible to get people to stay dead. Seriously, unless the timeline is Trunks's, the dragon balls usually fix everything. Even if Gohan or someone else dies, unless they request to stay dead, which I doubt Goku would heed because he likes his son being alive, then they would just get revived by the end of the arc.

The only way I could see anyone being killed off long term would be if Moro was a demon like his design says.

If they permanently or long term kill off anyone, I'd rather they do it with someone the Z fighters give a damn about. Perfect Cell has been more personal than Moro and he has one of the smaller kill counts of the main villains in dragon ball while Moro has one of the highest ones.

[MCDaveG]

Honestly, if anyone had to die, I feel like the only one who'd have impact dying would be Gohan. I mean, 17 faked his death in the ToP, I can't see 18 doing anything suicidal. Piccolo died ReF.

They missed a huge opportunity with Roshi, as his death after that great speech would've been perfect.

The writers just aren't really good at killing off the fan favorite characters. With the existence of the dragon balls it damn near impossible to get people to stay dead. Seriously, unless the timeline is Trunks's, the dragon balls usually fix everything. Even if Gohan or someone else dies, unless they request to stay dead, which I doubt Goku would heed because he likes his son being alive, then they would just get revived by the end of the arc.

The only way I could see anyone being killed off long term would be if Moro was a demon like his design says.

If they permanently or long term kill off anyone, I'd rather they do it with someone the Z fighters give a damn about. Perfect Cell has been more personal than Moro and he has one of the smaller kill counts of the main villains in dragon ball while Moro has one of the highest ones.

That is one of the reasons, why my exGF that liked Dragon Ball, stopped watching it after Cell arc. She didn't have the kids goggles, as she was younger and fan of Naruto and I was telling her about my childhood favorite...
But with dragonballs, there are actually no stakes... unless someone kills the God who created them or they have some bad side effect like in GT. But death really means nothing in Dragon Ball, as you can revive the characters over and over, until they probably die from old age and still, they live in afterlife. I actually really liked this concept and is one of the things that made me love Dragon Ball, that afterlife is another ''physical'' realm.
But well, with the Dragon Balls and now in Super, with timeline that preceeds the Epilogue of the manga and Z, nobody cares if someone dies... Except for Future Trunks arc or different universe. That is why the Future Trunks/Zamasu arc was so depressing, as they totally killed off Trunks' world, that he fought for in Z and Super. But in the main continuity, outside of new interesting characters, forms and techniques, Dragon Ball stopped being engaging really. And frankly for me, I think interesting new characters were topped by Beerus and Whis and after that, not much interesting characters came in. Maybe Zamasu. I find him annoying thanks to FighterZ and his speeches, but yeah, he is interesting villain actually, with novelty motivations.

I am already losing interest in Moro arc, unless they introduce some game changer and frankly, I caught up with Super Dragon Ball Heroes promo and enjoy it more... it is like a DBAF fanfic, doesn't make sense and villain's only character is that he has weird copy paste design that tries to be cool, but doesn't make sense (same like Xicor from DBAF) and the promo show looks better than first half of Dragon Ball Super.
But it was more fun for me than this manga right now.

[Matches Malone]

With dragonballs, there are actually no stakes... unless someone kills the God who created them or they have some bad side effect like in GT. But death really means nothing in Dragon Ball, as you can revive the characters over and over, until they probably die from old age and still, they live in afterlife. I actually really liked this concept and is one of the things that made me love Dragon Ball, that afterlife is another ''physical'' realm.
But well, with the Dragon Balls and now in Super, with timeline that preceeds the Epilogue of the manga and Z, nobody cares if someone dies...

I don't think it's an issue of no stakes as much as the writing not working. Despite death being meaningless in the original manga, Toriyama still managed to make them impactful. Piccolo for example came back, but that didn't take anything away from the weight his death had when it happened, same for both of Vegeta's deaths. Look at Krillin's death on Namek, sure he came back, but his death resulted in the transformation that changed everything. The problem with modern DB is that we don't really get those kinds of moments, be it a death or otherwise. The writers clearly realize how important such moments are, but instead of making new ones, they try to remake older ones, which don't work at all.

[MCDaveG]

With dragonballs, there are actually no stakes... unless someone kills the God who created them or they have some bad side effect like in GT. But death really means nothing in Dragon Ball, as you can revive the characters over and over, until they probably die from old age and still, they live in afterlife. I actually really liked this concept and is one of the things that made me love Dragon Ball, that afterlife is another ''physical'' realm.
But well, with the Dragon Balls and now in Super, with timeline that preceeds the Epilogue of the manga and Z, nobody cares if someone dies...

I don't think it's an issue of no stakes as much as the writing not working. Despite death being meaningless in the original manga, Toriyama still managed to make them impactful. Piccolo for example came back, but that didn't take anything away from the weight his death had when it happened, same for both of Vegeta's deaths. Look at Krillin's death on Namek, sure he came back, but his death resulted in the transformation that changed everything. The problem with modern DB is that we don't really get those kinds of moments, be it a death or otherwise. The writers clearly realize how important such moments are, but instead of making new ones, they try to remake older ones, which don't work at all.

Yeah, but look at those examples... Piccolo died and with God, so the dragon balls were no more. There were the stakes, they had to go to the different unknown planet without knowing the chances.
Krillin died on Namek, and Goku and we were led to believe, that Shenron can only grant one wish once, therefore, Krillin can't be ressurected.
Vegeta dying first time, was tied with him still being villain and the history of his and Goku's race, nobody kind of thought like him being Goku's friend and being ressurected (but all killed by Freeza were later, of course...) it was tragic and had a meaning and message.
Vegeta dying second time, was not only part of his character growth, but well, he was villain and will go to hell and lose his body, so no afterlife adventures for him. Later, he is brought back by Enma, but as he is being back and fights against Buu, his death will mean eradicating him out of existence.
Also, the tension in Buu arc was that Buu has basically eradicated and had the capacity to eradicate everyone, therefore without defeating him, having Dragon Balls is pointless.

So yeah, you can asume, that in a story called Dragon Ball, you are more optimistic when near the end of the original story, as you know most of the tropes and mechanics, but the stakes and tension was still there. Even with things like Vegitto - will Goku and Vegeta stay like this forever?! But I can understand why my EX has seen enough, but I liked it, I was totally perplexed as a kid, stuck on the screen till the last episode.

But Super doesn't have that charm anymore. Vegitto has lost that magic he had around him in Z and altough I liked the explanation about the Potara and mortals, as it actually explained what happened in Buu arc, now Vegitto was degraded just to one of the fusions...
And except new characters, as I said before, there is nothing really exciting. I have liked things like the old Grand Kai fighting Moro, which tied the series more and built on Buu arc and the lore we know from there. Merus was interesting character. But Moro is not.
I liked about Zamasu, that it was concept that we know - we know Kaioshins and we know evil Kaioshins, but hey what happens when Kaioshin starts to question how the world works and fights for his ideals? Moro is just magic hungry space goat, with backstory simmilar to Buu, but not that interesting.

Buu is not such uniqe character in Dragon Ball nowadays, but before Machine Mutant Baby and all of the stuff later, he was actually pretty novel... Sure, Cell could regenerate like Piccolo and more, but it was pure mechanic and with enough power, Gohan vaporized him. But not Buu, he had endless stamina like Androids, could have regenerate from everything, including vapor. He looked like a chewing game and I thought that his design was awesome as a kid and really cool.

And still think it is, Toriyama's biggest power is in his simple designs. I still think that Buu is one of his best designs, as all his forms are simply and distinct at the same time and in the show, with him changing, the rules were changing as well. People are saying that he was getting tired nearing the end of manga and that his work wasn't that great, but I think that is not true. Sure, the art in Buu arc gets to be really simple and around the Vegitto/Kai Realm, it looks like he really went trough it as fast as possible, but his ideas and overall designs were there, still at his best.

And frankly for me, Battle Of Gods, the movie, felt like it was done by Toriyama itself after Buu arc. Yeah SSJ God is little cheap concept, as idea (which appearantly wasn't his, including Beerus) and even design, but there was lot of the things that I loved about the old series.
Then it went downhill, half the stuff is probably done by Toyotaro, desingwise at least and here we are.

[Matches Malone]

Frankly for me, Battle Of Gods, the movie, felt like it was done by Toriyama itself after Buu arc, Then it went downhill.

I've always said this. BOG is the only part of modern DB that actually feels like it belongs in the original manga, something like a lost story that Toriyama didn't publish back in the day. Everything about that movie just works so perfectly with the rest of the manga, going as far as improving EOZ (at least for me). I think BOG being written as a one time, standalone movie is what helped it turn out as good as it is. Everyone involved brought their A game to the table because they thought it would be the only time they'd get to work on DB again. Everything after though ? It doesn't feel like any of it has that same passion that was in BOG, more like they know DB will go on forever so there's no need to put much effort into it.

Despite SsjG seeming cheap due to its design, it lines up perfectly with Toriyama's style of making the strongest form look very simple. Put yourself in Toriyama's place, where do you take things after the designs of Ssj3 and Ssj4 ? Both were extremely strong looking, so would it make sense to make the next one (and as far as Toriyama was concerned, the last one) look even stronger ? I definitely think he made the right choice with its design. Another thing to take into account is how it looks alongside Beerus. Ssj4 fits with the villains it fights, as they all have complex designs, but does Ssj4 look right next to Beerus ? For me personally, it doesn't, and I believe no complex design would.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

I feel they just need to make deaths have impacts. Most of Moro's notable kills were of his own henchmen, which he did purely for his amusement and convenience. Perfect Cell had more impact and he doesn't even have half of Moro's kill count or power. If Moro kills anyone, it should be someone of relevance. Moro hasn't killed anyone important, unless you count those namekians, even then some of them came back to life. Just have him kill off someone Goku or Vegeta care about so they realize how much of a menace Moro is.

[GodVegetto91]

Does anyone know where this is from? I found it on Dragon Ball Wiki, and I really want it to be serious and canon as opposed to it just being a mindless gag thing.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Does anyone know where this is from? I found it on Dragon Ball Wiki, and I really want it to be serious and canon as opposed to it just being a mindless gag thing.

No idea. But it doesn't look like it was drawn by Toyo.

[Dragon Wukong]

Does anyone know where this is from? I found it on Dragon Ball Wiki, and I really want it to be serious and canon as opposed to it just being a mindless gag thing.

VJump usually has (non-canon) 4koma gags related to Dragon Ball (and I think maybe sometimes other stuff?) They're all pretty scattered out there on the internet, 99% aren't and probably won't ever be translated, I don't know if they're fan-made or made by someone on VJump but they aren't meant to be taken as anything but a joke. They're less canonical than the DBS manga interstitial are.

[Jean0987654321]

Well...that was a disappointing chapter. A lot of hype for nothing as Moro gets an asspull of a lifeline through 7-3 and Vegeta looks like a cocky idiot and jabroni once again...

[MCDaveG]

Frankly for me, Battle Of Gods, the movie, felt like it was done by Toriyama itself after Buu arc, Then it went downhill.

I've always said this. BOG is the only part of modern DB that actually feels like it belongs in the original manga, something like a lost story that Toriyama didn't publish back in the day. Everything about that movie just works so perfectly with the rest of the manga, going as far as improving EOZ (at least for me). I think BOG being written as a one time, standalone movie is what helped it turn out as good as it is. Everyone involved brought their A game to the table because they thought it would be the only time they'd get to work on DB again. Everything after though ? It doesn't feel like any of it has that same passion that was in BOG, more like they know DB will go on forever so there's no need to put much effort into it.

Despite SsjG seeming cheap due to its design, it lines up perfectly with Toriyama's style of making the strongest form look very simple. Put yourself in Toriyama's place, where do you take things after the designs of Ssj3 and Ssj4 ? Both were extremely strong looking, so would it make sense to make the next one (and as far as Toriyama was concerned, the last one) look even stronger ? I definitely think he made the right choice with its design. Another thing to take into account is how it looks alongside Beerus. Ssj4 fits with the villains it fights, as they all have complex designs, but does Ssj4 look right next to Beerus ? For me personally, it doesn't, and I believe no complex design would.

Well, maybe I have wrote it wrong. SSJG sure felt like Toriyama... based on the interviews and the history with TOEI's own creations, we would probably originally get some complex and over the top design like SSJ4 (TOEI's SSJ God would wear cape) or those attrocities from Dragon Ball Heroes... The form makes sense that being transformed to god physically, Goku is sleek like Beerus and having different color of hair, because the nature of Chi has changed from mortal to divine. I really liked it, even with going with the trope from Z that you can't feel god Chi.
It is more that later, with SSJ Blue, that technically makes sense and SSJ Rose and later when you change your mindset, your hair turns grey and then you have Legendary SSJ (or whatever form Cale has?) with Lime colour... it is like peeking inside the ice cream truck and in FighterZ, when you see these various forms together in versus it kinda looks rudiculous.
I have wrote it again, again and again, but falsely believed the original promo of Ressurection F, I have believed that Goku and Vegeta surpassed SSJ and transforming overall but basically mastering themselves in base form, hence Super Saiyan being obsolete (and in EoZ, you don't see Goku transforming at all), so that was my false headcanon, before the thing called Super was unleashed and there was need of new keychains for gatcha machines

[TKA]

Well...that was a disappointing chapter. A lot of hype for nothing as Moro gets an asspull of a lifeline through 7-3 and Vegeta looks like a cocky idiot and jabroni once again...

It would've been an even bigger disappointment if he just showed up, used one technique he learned largely offscreen and Moro lost.

Not even in the original manga did anything like that happen. Goku learned the Kaioken and Spirit Bomb, showed up to fight Vegeta, and both techniques failed to win the day. Fusion got introduced, and neither fusion managed to win the day in the Buu arc.

While your complaint as presented is unfounded, I think what you're really upset about is the general structure of the arc. If so much ado hadn't been made of the move Vegeta was learning, only for it to be something so specific and underwhelming, then you probably wouldn't be disappointed by this "asspull" because it wouldn't have been necessary.

[Zelvin]

Well...that was a disappointing chapter. A lot of hype for nothing as Moro gets an asspull of a lifeline through 7-3 and Vegeta looks like a cocky idiot and jabroni once again...

It would've been an even bigger disappointment if he just showed up, used one technique he learned largely offscreen and Moro lost.

Disappointing? Perhaps. Anticlimactic? Certainly. But it would've been over. Vegeta would've used his new technique to weaken Moro until he was capable of finishing him off. That would've been satisfactory and given Vegeta a much deserved win.

Not even in the original manga did anything like that happen. Goku learned the Kaioken and Spirit Bomb, showed up to fight Vegeta, and both techniques failed to win the day. Fusion got introduced, and neither fusion managed to win the day in the Buu arc.

The circumstances aren't the same. And we know Vegeta didn't asspull new abilities to prolong events. We know he can become an oozaru because he still has his tail, we know Saiyans can transform thanks to Goku. You could argue the Moonball is a bit of an asspull, however, everything had been set up beforehand.

While Fusion didn't ultimately finish Buu, it could have. Vegito absolutely had Ult Buu out and out beaten. He only allowed himself to become absorbed so he could find some way to save their friends and family from inside Buu. Them not re-fusing to beat Kid Buu was a personal choice and a showing of their pride as Saiyans. Yes they knew that by not using the Potara things would be worse for them, but it lead to a very desperate plea from Vegeta for the Earthling's to help Goku and to stand up for themselves for once. So what we ended up with was still very satisfying.

What we got with Moro was a complete asspull that made everything previous irrelevant. That includes the amping of Sagambo. Z-fighters had a strat, they were winning and beating all the goons. Then Sagambo gets BS power boost from Moro that lets him solo the whole team handily, making all of their efforts completely pointless and a waste of time. All of their accomplishments, training and team work, thrown out the window just to artificially raise the stakes so UIS Goku could jump in and save them. Like what happens Every. Single. Time.

Only now UIS fails to be much of anything against Moro, never mind 7-3Moro who just curbstomps everyone for no reason. All their accomplishments. All their training and all that time spent watching them build their strategy, prepare themselves and all that time working together and developing their abilities...all thrown out the window into the trash bin so Toyo can drag this out even longer.

It isn't just disappointing. It's aggravating. And eventually it's going to get to the point where people just start feeling apathetic and walk away from the series. Losing more fans is not something these companies can afford.