"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Marz]

Granola's remaining 3 years of life might play a role now too, maybe in some form of time skip during or in the end of the story.

[Cipher]

Granola's remaining 3 years of life might play a role now too, maybe in some form of time skip during or in the end of the story.

Also possible! That number was so specific I’ve been wondering if it wouldn’t be used to bridge a timeskip to close to the original epilogue. (Technically it should probably just overshoot it, but they can fudge it, especially if Pan is closer to five than four at the tourney.)

[Ziegander]

Granola's remaining 3 years of life might play a role now too, maybe in some form of time skip during or in the end of the story.

Also possible! That number was so specific I’ve been wondering if it wouldn’t be used to bridge a timeskip to close to the original epilogue. (Technically it should probably just overshoot it, but they can fudge it, especially if Pan is closer to five than four at the tourney.)

As Granolah makes his wish on the Dragon Balls, Pan should be, if I'm keeping everything correct in my head, roughly 1 year old. She was about 6 months old pre-Moro, that took maybe three months to resolve, and then the Granolah arc began, and it started fairly slow, with Goku and Vegeta notably spending a while, I take it mean a couple months -ish, training in their respective divine forms while Granolah did his thing. We're coming up on Pan being about a year old at this point in the manga, so after Granolah's life span is up, she'd be about 4.

At 4, that would line up perfectly with the End of Z, and as far as my research has turned up, Age 4 is precisely when Japanese children begin KG-1, what we would call "'pre-school" here in the states, or Kindergarten, Year One.

[emperior]

Yeah I would bet that once the movie is out the next manga’s story will happen exactly after it timeframe wise. Granolah has 3 years left to live so the current arc may last a long time in-universe.

I am still wondering if they were saving Broly for this movie or not. And Freeza too. Because the two would seem to fit the current manga arc very well, but they might end up not appearing at all.

[CashmanX]

There's a tiny part of me that's starting to wonder if the reason "Oatmeel" hasn't been shown yet is because DBS Superhero is a stealth sequel to the Granolah arc and those two new characters were them the entire time.

And that's how they lead into EoZ via Superhero debuting at the around the same time the Granolah arc ends.

(And then two years later, this post ages as well as those speculating the "mysterious Saiyan" in the previous movie's teaser was Yamoshi...)

[Xeogran]

There's a tiny part of me that's starting to wonder if the reason "Oatmeel" hasn't been shown yet is because DBS Superhero is a stealth sequel to the Granolah arc and those two new characters were them the entire time.

Naah they wouldn't show Oatmeel without adapting Granolah first, that would just be weird. I also think he's an A. I. anyway after the last chapter

[Cipher]

As Granolah makes his wish on the Dragon Balls, Pan should be, if I'm keeping everything correct in my head, roughly 1 year old. She was about 6 months old pre-Moro, that took maybe three months to resolve, and then the Granolah arc began, and it started fairly slow, with Goku and Vegeta notably spending a while, I take it mean a couple months -ish, training in their respective divine forms while Granolah did his thing. We're coming up on Pan being about a year old at this point in the manga, so after Granolah's life span is up, she'd be about 4.

At 4, that would line up perfectly with the End of Z, and as far as my research has turned up, Age 4 is precisely when Japanese children begin KG-1, what we would call "'pre-school" here in the states, or Kindergarten, Year One.

Pan’s older than that as of the Granolah arc. At the beginning of the Universal Survival arc, Beerus comments that it’s been a “couple years” since he last fought Vegeta.

Broly has to be at least a year after “F” as well, as the Earth Dragon Balls are reused. We’re looking at probably a half year between the Moro and Granolah arcs combined right now (not quite three months for Moro, then another few before Granolah steals Seven-Three from Goichi), so Pan’s probably realistically around two. Frankly, even that’s a little tight, as there are implied to be gaps of at least a few months or so between the other Super arcs, even if no specific timeframes are given. (Ex., Goku feeling rusty by the time the US arc rolls around; Bulma going from not visibly pregnant in the Trunks arc to being just about due in US, etc.)

But if she’s pushing five at the tournament they can just barely make everything work, give or take some specifics.

[Grimlock]

As Granolah makes his wish on the Dragon Balls, Pan should be, if I'm keeping everything correct in my head, roughly 1 year old. She was about 6 months old pre-Moro, that took maybe three months to resolve, and then the Granolah arc began, and it started fairly slow, with Goku and Vegeta notably spending a while, I take it mean a couple months -ish, training in their respective divine forms while Granolah did his thing. We're coming up on Pan being about a year old at this point in the manga, so after Granolah's life span is up, she'd be about 4.

At 4, that would line up perfectly with the End of Z, and as far as my research has turned up, Age 4 is precisely when Japanese children begin KG-1, what we would call "'pre-school" here in the states, or Kindergarten, Year One.

I place the beginning of Movie 15 in January to accommodate all the subsequent events with little to no issue (and trust me, there are still issues), that means Pan was born in very early AGE 779. That would also means she's about two years old by Granolah saga.

I've seen sources saying kindergarten starts at 3, but regardless of that, I think the movie will take place in either AGE 782 or AGE 783. Unless the movie itself will be very specific (like stating that it's Pan's first year in the kindergarten and even goes out of its way to mention her actual age. I don't expect any of that, but you never know).


Anyway, another thing I'm starting to wonder is if they'll address that Bulma and Goku don't see each other. Up until Dragon Ball Super Broly (or Moro, if you will), we could solve that, but not anymore. Surely they should do something about that, right? In-universe speaking, I mean. I'm positive we'll see Bulma and Goku interacting with each other in this movie.

[Jack Bz]

Anyway, another thing I'm starting to wonder is if they'll address that Bulma and Goku don't see each other. Up until Dragon Ball Super Broly (or Moro, if you will), we could solve that, but not anymore. Surely they should do something about that, right? In-universe speaking, I mean. I'm positive we'll see Bulma and Goku interacting with each other in this movie.

I'm secretly hoping they solve this by, 5 days before end of Z, having Bulma decide to take up some training in the Rosat

[emperior]

Anyway, another thing I'm starting to wonder is if they'll address that Bulma and Goku don't see each other. Up until Dragon Ball Super Broly (or Moro, if you will), we could solve that, but not anymore. Surely they should do something about that, right? In-universe speaking, I mean. I'm positive we'll see Bulma and Goku interacting with each other in this movie.

I'm secretly hoping they solve this by, 5 days before end of Z, having Bulma decide to take up some training in the Rosat

Maybe during the movie she will be on a trip with Vegeta, Beerus and Whis on some far off planet where time moves slower?

[Skar]

Also possible! That number was so specific I’ve been wondering if it wouldn’t be used to bridge a timeskip to close to the original epilogue. (Technically it should probably just overshoot it, but they can fudge it, especially if Pan is closer to five than four at the tourney.)

That makes sense! I still wonder what will happen in the manga after Granolah because the goal of surpassing Beerus established in BoG is getting closer and closer with Goku mastering UI and Vegeta obtaining this new ability. If Toriyama wasn't wiling to go past EoZ a decade ago and had everything in modern DB take place before it then I can't imagine he would change his mind at this age. He'll be turning 67 next year!

[theherodjl]

I'd like to know what exactly Freeza has been up to since the Broly film. Perhaps similarly to 17, Freeza has developed a method of improving in power by doing simple, daily tasks in ruling the empire. Hell, he could have even developed a new form just by concentrating hard enough. Freeza doesn't need to put out nearly as much effort as Goku & Vegeta do to become stronger, truly living up to his mutant status.

[Grimlock]

I'm secretly hoping they solve this by, 5 days before end of Z, having Bulma decide to take up some training in the Rosat

Yeah, something like that. As long as they don't see each other, both of them could appear in the movie just fine. And if this movie does indeed come to ignore the manga, then the last time they saw each other, to the viewers' knowledge/on-screen, was in Dragon Ball Super Broly.

[TKA]

I don't care about all the power level and transformation discussion, so let's cycle back to this.

1. But "telling a story" is not just simply things that "progress the story." A fight scene tells us a story based on the combatants, the way the fight goes on, who wins, ect, ect. It doesn't necessarily have to have elements that push the along. There's a reason why people are reacting fairly strongly to this chapter. It's not just because of the fight choreography, because Super's action scenes have been pretty consistent throughout this arc. But it's the little details throughout this chapter that make it more than "just a fight scene," some of which you've already singled out in your own post.

2. Like I said before, this is a Vegeta showcase; whereas Goku handles the situation as per usual, Vegeta takes a dramatically different approach which is a result of his training with Beerus. This is not just "another fight," and I don't like this chapter simply because it revealed a new form (in fact it was something that I, myself, was growing weary of), I like it because of how Vegeta is directing this fight: It's telling me how he's changed and where the next chapter might go. That's storytelling. I am excited because this feels like potentially changing the dynamic of its characters.

3. The problem with your examples is that they're all being made with hindsight. Of course we know the effect of these key scenes because we all know what ends up happening. Super is an ongoing series: you could absolutely be proven right, and the next chapter could be a big ole nothing and we're back to square one, but I'm remaining optimistic.

1. I agree that telling a story doesn't just mean plot. Only dumb youtubers who wanna sound smart would make that assertion. The point I was making was that the Saiyan arc's fights conveyed character, theme AND plot. There was a point to the fights beyond being there for its own sake.

2. I've talked many times about how "showcase"s for characters is a waste of time and pointless. I won't throw the Vegeta portion of this under the bus since it's still ongoing, but one thing that is abundantly clear is last chapter was a waste of everyone's time. Not only did we spend more than half of it with Goku constantly going "Actually, I was holding back," but we also ended it with Granolah revealing he was a Dr. Doombot all along. We're now right back to where we started. Nothing was gained. We don't understand Granolah as a character more, we don't know how his powers work, and nobody is actually talking to each other so we can get some goddamn compelling story here. It's the same nonsense you see in every comic book where two characters meet and have a pointless fight and then they stop and talk to each other and realize it was a misunderstanding all along. It's stupid and asinine.

3. If you were reading the Saiyan arc as it happened, or for the first time, what you would get out of the Nappa fight is that:

A) There is no hope of beating him and nothing these guys are doing is working.
B) He's slowly being whittled away (battle damage, blood), but there's no way they'll last long enough to beat him.
C) Goku is the only hope against him.
D) We're getting closer to Goku's arrival.
E) These guys are elites and called Goku a low-class wretch. Maybe that's difference is insurmountable, considering how strong they are.

A is a tone. B, C and D are plot. E is theme. All conveyed in the moment. In the present. All strengthened when you look back on the arc.

Also, I'd never use the Dragonball fandom's reaction to things as a barometer for what's good storytelling. That includes this thread, which routinely freaks out and has a conniption every time leaks are posted for a new chapter. It's been this way since the start of the manga, with people making grandiose claims like "Toyotaro is the worst writer ever" etc.

[OLKv3]

I noticed Vegeta's aura made Granolah's ki blast explode just like they did when Vegeta used Hakai on them earlier

[emperior]

I'd like to know what exactly Freeza has been up to since the Broly film. Perhaps similarly to 17, Freeza has developed a method of improving in power by doing simple, daily tasks in ruling the empire. Hell, he could have even developed a new form just by concentrating hard enough. Freeza doesn't need to put out nearly as much effort as Goku & Vegeta do to become stronger, truly living up to his mutant status.

Funnily like others have already theorized, Freeza might not even appear in this arc. It would be weird, after all these talks about him, but the conflict may actually only revolve around Granolah, the Heeters and Goku/Vegeta.

And I actually wouldn’t mind it.

[Mr Baggins]

We're now right back to where we started. Nothing was gained. We don't understand Granolah as a character more, we don't know how his powers work, and nobody is actually talking to each other so we can get some goddamn compelling story here.

I'd say the issue is less that we're not getting any story at all and more that we're being dripfed that story in bite-sized amounts across an ocean of action pages with cool fighting choreography and very little else. The previous chapter shows a more ruthless side of Granolah than we've seen thus far, for example, but we don't really get that until the end.

Chapter 70 was actually the red flag for me. In a scene where the entire thrust was Granolah taking the Heeters by surprise with his newfound power to show them he means business, a point that would have been sold more effectively had Granolah just finger flicked Oil into unconsciousness, instead he spends the entire rest of the chapter bouncing him around like a punching bag and holding back. It didn't progress the plot, wasted too many pages on mindless action in lieu of story beats, and told us nothing about any of the characters in the scene. It took what could have been a compelling moment and turned it into the DB equivalent of a popcorn flick because Toyotaro wants to flex how much he's improving as a panelist or whatever.

I didn't want to repeat the same critique every month, so I've been keeping quiet. Still gonna keep most of my thoughts mum until the end, but pacing-wise? Yeah, this is frontloaded to hell.

[Magnificent Ponta]

I didn't want to repeat the same critique every month, so I've been keeping quiet. Still gonna keep most of my thoughts mum until the end, but pacing-wise? Yeah, this is frontloaded to hell.

In all honesty, I felt that way about Chapter 71. 70 landed on a beat of 'Fate Will Bring These Three Together', and 71 messed around for another 45 pages to end on what was basically 'No Seriously You Guys, Next Time For Real'.

I know earlier issues of Super were criticised for being 'rushed' (I don't know if I exactly agree with that critique as phrased, but Toyotarou's art has benefited a little from being able to 'breathe' over a higher page count, in my opinion), but this arc and the last are definitely an unnecessary overcorrection on the pacing front.

[Koitsukai]

Although, we still don't know if Freeza will appear, do you guys think it would be a missed opportunity to not include Broly in this arc, considering all the hatred for the saiyans and Freeza (Broly kinda checks both boxes, he's a saiyan and works or worked for Freeza) Granola has?

[emperior]

I didn't want to repeat the same critique every month, so I've been keeping quiet. Still gonna keep most of my thoughts mum until the end, but pacing-wise? Yeah, this is frontloaded to hell.

In all honesty, I felt that way about Chapter 71. 70 landed on a beat of 'Fate Will Bring These Three Together', and 71 messed around for another 45 pages to end on what was basically 'No Seriously You Guys, Next Time For Real'.

I know earlier issues of Super were criticised for being 'rushed' (I don't know if I exactly agree with that critique as phrased, but Toyotarou's art has benefited a little from being able to 'breathe' over a higher page count, in my opinion), but this arc and the last are definitely an unnecessary overcorrection on the pacing front.

I would bet that the pacing has been as such because with the story being already outlined they are stretching out the chapters to ensure it doesn’t end before the new movie comes out.

I think this arc will probably end exactly the same month as the movie’s release.