"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by 1345521 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:18 am

IM21 wrote:Toyo's Bardock doesn't look that bad.

Image
IT'S going to be a bit hard to say, but I think toyotaro is going to make a really good broly arc. To me, toyotaro really dropped the ball in the ToP saga (I think large part due to having to rush it to get to the broly stuff) - but I think he can rebound this broly arc, and he's really going to expand what the movie did.
How long do you have toyotaro's broly arc being? 12 chapters? 16 chapters?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by IM21 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:34 am

1345521 wrote: IT'S going to be a bit hard to say, but I think toyotaro is going to make a really good broly arc. To me, toyotaro really dropped the ball in the ToP saga (I think large part due to having to rush it to get to the broly stuff) - but I think he can rebound this broly arc, and he's really going to expand what the movie did.
How long do you have toyotaro's broly arc being? 12 chapters? 16 chapters?
I think it depends on when the Super anime is returning, which is a high probability. So if it continues in April I guess it will be 5-6 chapters and if its later in the summer, I can see it go to 8. I don't think it needs more cause it is just a 90 min movie. The backstory will probably be more fleshed out in the manga.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by 1345521 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:50 am

IM21 wrote:
1345521 wrote: IT'S going to be a bit hard to say, but I think toyotaro is going to make a really good broly arc. To me, toyotaro really dropped the ball in the ToP saga (I think large part due to having to rush it to get to the broly stuff) - but I think he can rebound this broly arc, and he's really going to expand what the movie did.
How long do you have toyotaro's broly arc being? 12 chapters? 16 chapters?
I think it depends on when the Super anime is returning, which is a high probability. So if it continues in April I guess it will be 5-6 chapters and if its later in the summer, I can see it go to 8. I don't think it needs more cause it is just a 90 min movie. The backstory will probably be more fleshed out in the manga.
Why does it matter when the anime comes back? you think toyotaro is going to try at all cost to at least be an full arc ahead of the anime or be right with the anime if they comeback and decide not to re-tell?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by IM21 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:18 am

1345521 wrote: Why does it matter when the anime comes back? you think toyotaro is going to try at all cost to at least be an full arc ahead of the anime or be right with the anime if they comeback and decide not to re-tell?
I don't think the manga will be an arc ahead. It looks like it will start at the same time and then the anime will overtake the manga just like it did at the begininng of super. Now if the chapters were weekly, the manga could be right along or even ahead, but not with the monthly chapters.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:16 am

Since the content for the film had to be trimmed quite a bit, it's entirely possible that the manga will include material not in the film. A monthly serial doesn't exactly have the same time constraints as a theatrical release.

Also, that Bardock looks rad. Nice to see lower body battle damage for once.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by IM21 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:31 pm

LOL, Toyo acknowledged on twitter that he forgot the tail. I didn't even notice it.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by EGonzo » Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:52 pm

1345521 wrote:
IM21 wrote:Toyo's Bardock doesn't look that bad.

Image
IT'S going to be a bit hard to say, but I think toyotaro is going to make a really good broly arc. To me, toyotaro really dropped the ball in the ToP saga (I think large part due to having to rush it to get to the broly stuff) - but I think he can rebound this broly arc, and he's really going to expand what the movie did.
How long do you have toyotaro's broly arc being? 12 chapters? 16 chapters?
I hope you're right. Toyo has some cool concepts in his version of Super (the "mastering Blue" arc, part of Kale's SSJ form, F. Zamasu's Kai powers, etc.) but to me his execution and characterizations are terrible. To me the only arc he did really well was the Champa arc. Right now I really dislike the manga, but haven't dismissed it yet because I think he can pull something cool once in a while, and I hope he does well with Broly.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by 1345521 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:01 pm

EGonzo wrote:
1345521 wrote:
IM21 wrote:Toyo's Bardock doesn't look that bad.

Image
IT'S going to be a bit hard to say, but I think toyotaro is going to make a really good broly arc. To me, toyotaro really dropped the ball in the ToP saga (I think large part due to having to rush it to get to the broly stuff) - but I think he can rebound this broly arc, and he's really going to expand what the movie did.
How long do you have toyotaro's broly arc being? 12 chapters? 16 chapters?
I hope you're right. Toyo has some cool concepts in his version of Super (the "mastering Blue" arc, part of Kale's SSJ form, F. Zamasu's Kai powers, etc.) but to me his execution and characterizations are terrible. To me the only arc he did really well was the Champa arc. Right now I really dislike the manga, but haven't dismissed it yet because I think he can pull something cool once in a while, and I hope he does well with Broly.
I dissagree with characterization, his characterization is STELLAR. The problem with these recent manga chapters is the power scailing, lack of character shine, writing and overall pace. Those are what's really hurting his manga. The characters and art is AMAZING, just way better then the anime IMO.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:18 pm

I actually think Toyo dialing it back a bit is really letting these character moments shine. I don't need a five fucking spread of UI Goku being OMGBADASSAWESOME to get the effect of the transformation. And I love, love how it's been used more directly as the antithesis to the powerscaling that DB has been plaguing the series for years. You know, rather than it just happening simply because we all knew it was going to happen since Toei made sure the only reason why anyone was watching the arc was for the moment that Goku finally got a new form.


Wasn't worth it.


But yeah. Really liked the Jiren vs. UI Goku match here. definitely think Jiren is far and away better than his anime counterpart.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by zarmack » Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:38 pm

kemuri07 wrote:. I don't need a five fucking spread of UI Goku being OMGBADASSAWESOME to get the effect of the transformation.
Yes you do. Its called Show, Dont Tell

Manga Jiren is far more inconsistent than his Anime version. At first he is shilled up as being much more heroic and less of a jerk than his anime version, only to reveal that in most of arc he does absolutely nothing to help out his teammates and coldly dismisses them when they lose (how is he different?)

And UI in the manga is extremely underwhelming, especially the Omen (which accomplished nothing in the manga, making it a wasted transformation).

And how is UI in the manga the antithesis of DB usual powerscaling when it follows the blueprint?: New form -> increases powerlevel -> improves Goku's chances at winning.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:15 pm

zarmack wrote:
kemuri07 wrote:. I don't need a five fucking spread of UI Goku being OMGBADASSAWESOME to get the effect of the transformation.
Yes you do. Its called Show, Dont Tell
Sure. But that's not what we're talking about. I don't need that because it doesn't do anything from a narrative perspective. It's just bloat for the sake of empty spectacle.

And it's the antithesis of every other formation because whereas SSJ and its variants were often unlocked due to the heightened emotional state of the characters, UI is decidely not about that.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by zarmack » Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:24 pm

kemuri07 wrote:
zarmack wrote:
kemuri07 wrote:. I don't need a five fucking spread of UI Goku being OMGBADASSAWESOME to get the effect of the transformation.
Yes you do. Its called Show, Dont Tell
Sure. But that's not what we're talking about. I don't need that because it doesn't do anything from a narrative perspective. It's just bloat for the sake of empty spectacle.

And it's the antithesis of every other formation because whereas SSJ and its variants were often unlocked due to the heightened emotional state of the characters, UI is decidely not about that.
Please smh. Spectacle is the point of any fight scene regardless of any other narrative purpose it may have. It sounds like you're trying to defend the manga version for having an underwhelming fight scene.

And UI is unlocked by an heightened mental of a character, how is that any different? Its still a plot-convenient power-up that serves the same function as the SSJ forms.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:27 pm

kemuri07 wrote:
zarmack wrote:
kemuri07 wrote:. I don't need a five fucking spread of UI Goku being OMGBADASSAWESOME to get the effect of the transformation.
Yes you do. Its called Show, Dont Tell
Sure. But that's not what we're talking about. I don't need that because it doesn't do anything from a narrative perspective. It's just bloat for the sake of empty spectacle.

And it's the antithesis of every other formation because whereas SSJ and its variants were often unlocked due to the heightened emotional state of the characters, UI is decidely not about that.
It really isn't bloat when Goku forgo working with Hit to get to the next level and it was Goku's goal the entire time for the TOP. So him getting it and it being underwhelming goes against Toyo's own narrative. That and this is the climatic fight of the story arc. Why shouldn't it have some 'fluff'? Especially since Toyo undercooked almost every other fight in this arc.

Only Super Saiyan 1 and 2 were emotional power-ups. Super Saiyan 3 was off-scene for both Goku and Gotenks. Super Saiyan God was a ritual that requires righteous hearts and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan was off-scene too. And the Grade Super Saiyan was just a lot of training.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:32 pm

zarmack wrote:
kemuri07 wrote:. I don't need a five fucking spread of UI Goku being OMGBADASSAWESOME to get the effect of the transformation.
Yes you do. Its called Show, Dont Tell

Manga Jiren is far more inconsistent than his Anime version. At first he is shilled up as being much more heroic and less of a jerk than his anime version, only to reveal that in most of arc he does absolutely nothing to help out his teammates and coldly dismisses them when they lose (how is he different?)

And UI in the manga is extremely underwhelming, especially the Omen (which accomplished nothing in the manga, making it a wasted transformation).

And how is UI in the manga the antithesis of DB usual powerscaling when it follows the blueprint?: New form -> increases powerlevel -> improves Goku's chances at winning.
What I find interesting about Manga Jiren is that he's supposed to be more heroic than Anime Jiren, yet he left his team to be murdered by Kelfa and watched Toppo and Dypso fall out of the ring. That and he let Kale wiped most of the tournament. While Anime Jiren who is more of an asshole, stopped Kale's rampage before it went too far and saved Dypso from having his ear cut off, despite Toppo offering to do it. Even more odd that Jiren didn't seem to have a problem working with his team earlier to the point that he saved them in his first appearance and took orders from Dypso.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Xeztin » Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:17 pm

Looking at Toyble’s AF, he is a huge fan of Broly, Gohan, Bardock, Goku, Roshi, and Vegeta. I’d say he’ll do his best work yet, I’m unsure if he was enjoying drawing the ToP. But where there were tons of characters and such, I highly doubt it.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:26 pm

zarmack wrote:Manga Jiren is far more inconsistent than his Anime version. At first he is shilled up as being much more heroic and less of a jerk than his anime version, only to reveal that in most of arc he does absolutely nothing to help out his teammates and coldly dismisses them when they lose (how is he different?)

And UI in the manga is extremely underwhelming, especially the Omen (which accomplished nothing in the manga, making it a wasted transformation).

And how is UI in the manga the antithesis of DB usual powerscaling when it follows the blueprint?: New form -> increases powerlevel -> improves Goku's chances at winning.
I'd like to hear specific scene examples you're talking about here. Jiren is introduced having just come from a lone mission. He defeats the monster alone, and then refuses to cooperate in the tournament until he realizes he can get a selfish wish granted. Jiren cares about justice, but he doesn't care about making friends. That's been consistent throughout the Universe Survival arc of the manga.

In the anime, Omen is indistinguishable from the completed version. How is that an omen? An omen is a sign of things to come, not the same exact thing with a pallet-swap featuring characters reacting differently because the writing demands it. That's why Omen works so much better as a plot point in the manga, despite the fact that the anime's animation was superb.

It's the antithesis because it's not going to win the tournament for Universe 7. The solution is teamwork. Goku forsook teamwork the entire tournament because he believed the only chance he had at winning was achieving Migatte no Gokui. It's not certain that he could've won without it, but at this point, team work is what will lead Universe 7 to victory. Jiren's lack of teamwork is the reason Universe 11 will lose.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by zarmack » Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:36 pm

batistabus wrote:
zarmack wrote:Manga Jiren is far more inconsistent than his Anime version. At first he is shilled up as being much more heroic and less of a jerk than his anime version, only to reveal that in most of arc he does absolutely nothing to help out his teammates and coldly dismisses them when they lose (how is he different?)

And UI in the manga is extremely underwhelming, especially the Omen (which accomplished nothing in the manga, making it a wasted transformation).

And how is UI in the manga the antithesis of DB usual powerscaling when it follows the blueprint?: New form -> increases powerlevel -> improves Goku's chances at winning.
I'd like to hear specific scene examples you're talking about here. Jiren is introduced having just come from a lone mission. He defeats the monster alone, and then refuses to cooperate in the tournament until he realizes he can get a selfish wish granted. Jiren cares about justice, but he doesn't care about making friends. That's been consistent throughout the Universe Survival arc of the manga.

In the anime, Omen is indistinguishable from the completed version. How is that an Omen? An omen is a sign of things to come, not the same exact thing with a pallet-swap featuring characters reacting differently because the writing demands it. That's why Omen works so much better as a plot point in the manga, despite the fact that the anime's animation was superb.

It's the antithesis because it's not going to win the tournament for Universe 7. The solution is teamwork. Goku forsook teamwork the entire tournament because he believed the only chance he had at winning was achieving Migatte no Gokui. It's not certain that he could've won without it, but at this point, team work is what will lead Universe 7 to victory. Jiren's lack of teamwork is the reason Universe 11 will lose.
1. The Omen in the anime does a better job of showcasing "a sign of things to come" and the power of UI than the manga (which makes UI as a whole look useless).

2. This is a bad argument. Introducing a new transformation just to make it useless is bad writing no matter what theme you are trying to preach. Useless transformations are nothing new in DB (see most of the SSJ grade forms and SSJ3 for examples), so the manga's use of UI isn't the antitheses of anything. Its just another example of bad writing.
Last edited by zarmack on Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:37 pm

zarmack wrote:Manga Jiren is far more inconsistent than his Anime version. At first he is shilled up as being much more heroic and less of a jerk than his anime version, only to reveal that in most of arc he does absolutely nothing to help out his teammates and coldly dismisses them when they lose (how is he different?)
It at least tracks with the idea of him being put on a superhero team and deciding to adopt the idea of fighting for justice at the behest of the master he's trying to please. He was told to uphold justice, so until he gets approval, he's going to be the best damn champion of justice there is (much like how he thought he was supposed to get stronger, so he became the strongest there is). But his loner nature still prevails.

The anime version may be a more consistent asshole, but it's also hard to buy this Batman-esque superhero out for his own justice as the same guy who takes time to specifically trash-talk opponents when they're about to die ("How does your last victory taste?") or chastise his teammates for losing. Manga Jiren just quietly lets them fall because he thinks he's the only one who can finish it, and better off alone.
And UI in the manga is extremely underwhelming, especially the Omen (which accomplished nothing in the manga, making it a wasted transformation).
Why's it have to be one? It's what it says on the tin—a prelude to the complete UI. I liked how seamless that all was. The aura-less, slimmed-down approach to UI itself also helps it communicate the pure, mastered self Omen projected in the anime, but which was then tossed out for the flash and awe of the completed form, which the direction on 130 presented more as a standard Saiyan power-up.
And how is UI in the manga the antithesis of DB usual powerscaling when it follows the blueprint?: New form -> increases powerlevel -> improves Goku's chances at winning.
Jiren himself highlights it this chapter when he complains about Goku targeting openings rather than relying on true strength. UI Goku is weaker than Jiren, but has the upper hand regardless due to his automatic defense and perfect exploitation of openings and weak points for attacks. That's completely different from any transformation beforehand, which were always about straight-forward power advantages, and presentation-wise, it's a trait of the completed UI I buy much more readily in the manga. (It's also nice that its automatic technique itself has drawbacks unless fully mastered, and that it doesn't save the day except for unfortunate timing, as the anime' would have.)

I also actually buy this UI as something anyone, provided a cosmic level of mastery of other elements, can obtain, rather than it being hard to see as anything other than a standard transformation as in the anime.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:49 pm

zarmack wrote:1. The Omen in the anime does a better job of showcasing "a sign of things to come" and the power of UI than the manga (which makes UI as a whole look useless).

2. This is a bad argument. Introducing a new transformation just to make it useless is bad writing no matter what theme you are trying to preach. Useless transformations are nothing new in DB (see most of the SSJ grade forms and SSJ3 for examples), so the manga's use of UI isn't the antitheses of anything. Its just another example of bad writing.
Omen in the anime isn't a sign of things to come, it is exactly the same as what is to come. The only reason it is described as being different was because it was too soon in the tournament to unveil the final version, but Toei wanted to have a hype double-feature special episode with an excuse to temporarily nerf Goku immediately afterwards. In the manga, Goku smoothly transitions into the completed version, and it does not seem as though he'll be utilizing the ability again. In the anime, there is no escalation. Every time the form makes a return - Omen or completed - you can expect the same level of ability. In the manga, you get a sense of what Goku might capable of through Omen, and then you see it in full force.

Welcome to the world of Akira Toriyama. I don't know where you developed this iron-clad definition of what a transformation should or should not be used for thematically.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by zarmack » Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:53 pm

Cipher wrote:
zarmack wrote:Manga Jiren is far more inconsistent than his Anime version. At first he is shilled up as being much more heroic and less of a jerk than his anime version, only to reveal that in most of arc he does absolutely nothing to help out his teammates and coldly dismisses them when they lose (how is he different?)
It at least tracks with the idea of him being put on a superhero team and deciding to adopt the idea of fighting for justice at the behest of the master he's trying to please. He was told to uphold justice, so until he gets approval, he's going to be the best damn champion of justice there is (much like how he thought he was supposed to get stronger, so he became the strongest there is). But his loner nature still prevails.

The anime version may be a more consistent asshole, but it's also hard to buy this Batman-esque superhero out for his own justice as the same guy who takes time to specifically trash-talk opponents when they're about to die ("How does your last victory taste?") or chastise his teammates for losing. Manga Jiren just quietly lets them fall because he thinks he's the only one who can finish it, and better off alone.
And UI in the manga is extremely underwhelming, especially the Omen (which accomplished nothing in the manga, making it a wasted transformation).
Why's it have to be one? It's what it says on the tin—a prelude to the complete UI. I liked how seamless that all was. The aura-less, slimmed-down approach to UI itself also helps it communicate the pure, mastered self Omen projected in the anime, but which was then tossed out for the flash and awe of the completed form, which the direction on 130 presented more as a standard Saiyan power-up.
And how is UI in the manga the antithesis of DB usual powerscaling when it follows the blueprint?: New form -> increases powerlevel -> improves Goku's chances at winning.
Jiren himself highlights it this chapter when he complains about Goku targeting openings rather than relying on true strength. UI Goku is weaker than Jiren, but has the upper hand regardless due to his automatic defense and perfect exploitation of openings and weak points for attacks. That's completely different from any transformation beforehand, which were always about straight-forward power advantages, and presentation-wise, it's a trait of the completed UI I buy much more readily in the manga. (It's also nice that its automatic technique itself has drawbacks unless fully mastered, and that it doesn't save the day except for unfortunate timing, as the anime' would have.)

I also actually buy this UI as something anyone, provided a cosmic level of mastery of other elements, can obtain, rather than it being hard to see as anything other than a standard transformation as in the anime.
1. If Manga Jiren was more heroic, then you would expect him to be helpful and concerned about his teammates than he's shown to be (common sense). Ironically, Anime Jiren is actually more helpful to his team than Manga Jiren lol, he;s even seen following orders from Dyspo of all people.

2. The anime does a much better job at showcasing the utility and advantages of UI than the manga. Just look at Omen Goku vs SSJ2 Kefla for example. She was superior to him in raw power (enough to be able to kill him in one blast), yet thanks to UI's precognitive hax he is able to out-maneuver all of her attacks with ease despite being weaker.

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