"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by zarmack » Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:02 pm

batistabus wrote:
zarmack wrote:1. The Omen in the anime does a better job of showcasing "a sign of things to come" and the power of UI than the manga (which makes UI as a whole look useless).

2. This is a bad argument. Introducing a new transformation just to make it useless is bad writing no matter what theme you are trying to preach. Useless transformations are nothing new in DB (see most of the SSJ grade forms and SSJ3 for examples), so the manga's use of UI isn't the antitheses of anything. Its just another example of bad writing.
Omen in the anime isn't a sign of things to come, it is exactly the same as what is to come. The only reason it is described as being different was because it was too soon in the tournament to unveil the final version, but Toei wanted to have a hype double-feature special episode with an excuse to temporarily nerf Goku immediately afterwards. In the manga, Goku smoothly transitions into the completed version, and it does not seem as though he'll be utilizing the ability again. In the anime, there is no escalation. Every time the form makes a return - Omen or completed - you can expect the same level of ability. In the manga, you get a sense of what Goku might capable of through Omen, and then you see it in full force.

Welcome to the world of Akira Toriyama. I don't know where you developed this iron-clad definition of what a transformation should or should not be used for thematically.
This is the most nonsensical defense of the manga I've ever read. Its like you are reaching really hard to defend Toyotaro's bad writing. If this was any other series in any other fandom it would be unanimously bashed for what it is.

Either way, your complains about the anime are obviously false. Each time Goku used the Omen in the anime, the results were more impressive than the last, with MUI completely blowing that out of the water. So anyone could see the escalation.

The only reason MUI in the manga seems like escalation is because its depiction of the Omen was so underwhelming that any showcase of competence would seem like an improvement.

And just because Toriyama writes/portrays things like transformations a certain way doesn't make it any good, let alone exempt from criticism.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:19 pm

zarmack wrote:This is the most nonsensical defense of the manga I've ever read. Its like you are reaching really hard to defend Toyotaro's bad writing. If this was any other series in any other fandom it would be unanimously bashed for what it is.

Either way, your complains about the anime are obviously false. Each time Goku used the Omen in the anime, the results were more impressive than the last, with MUI completely blowing that out of the water. So anyone could see the escalation.

The only reason MUI in the manga seems like escalation is because its depiction of the Omen was so underwhelming that any showcase of competence would seem like an improvement.

And just because Toriyama writes/portrays things like transformations a certain way doesn't make it any good, let alone exempt from criticism.
Thank you for this nothing statement. Try arguing a point instead of spewing insults without substance.

Every time we see MnG in the anime, it's a spectacle. Why do you need a "completed" version when this one seems to be working so well? When you get Omen used multiple times, even against Kafla, the impact is lost. In the manga, Omen is mostly capable of dodging (barely) and blocking, while the completed version includes a number of impactful counters. The distinction is muddy at best in the anime, but very distinct in the manga. Despite the overuse of Omen in the anime, I still like how it was used there overall...I just don't think it was used as well as in the manga.

Omen in the manga showed Jiren unable to land hits despite trying. That's more than anyone else has gotten out of him.

Nobody said Toriyama is flawless, but this is a staple of his storytelling. Since you seem fond of throwing out literary techniques, let's try "red herring".

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:01 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:
Rakurai wrote: That char design was literally taken from his old SSG Goku design for BoG and recolored white.
Incorrect. Aside from more subtle indicators like the clothing wrinkles being different, the stoic facial expression (which is what I've been talking about) is completely new.

Toriyama obviously takes character design shortcuts when he can, but my point was that he clearly had some kind of distinct vision for the aesthetic of the original concept.
Oh okay, I see what you mean. The square eyes are intended to be part of UI's facial expression.

Even so, I still prefer Toyo's original version, which is more fierce and detailed.
zarmack wrote: 1. If Manga Jiren was more heroic, then you would expect him to be helpful and concerned about his teammates than he's shown to be (common sense). Ironically, Anime Jiren is actually more helpful to his team than Manga Jiren lol, he;s even seen following orders from Dyspo of all people.
Why is this common sense? There are many archetypes of a hero. Usually it means saving people or the world. It doesn't mean cooperation especially in a group you didn't want to be a part of in the first place as in Jiren's case.

And the fact is that there were no heroes in this tournament. Especially not Jiren who wanted a selfish wish granted. Not even the Pride Troopers were touting their justice crap or declaring anyone evil.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:54 am

zarmack wrote:
batistabus wrote:
zarmack wrote:1. The Omen in the anime does a better job of showcasing "a sign of things to come" and the power of UI than the manga (which makes UI as a whole look useless).

2. This is a bad argument. Introducing a new transformation just to make it useless is bad writing no matter what theme you are trying to preach. Useless transformations are nothing new in DB (see most of the SSJ grade forms and SSJ3 for examples), so the manga's use of UI isn't the antitheses of anything. Its just another example of bad writing.
Omen in the anime isn't a sign of things to come, it is exactly the same as what is to come. The only reason it is described as being different was because it was too soon in the tournament to unveil the final version, but Toei wanted to have a hype double-feature special episode with an excuse to temporarily nerf Goku immediately afterwards. In the manga, Goku smoothly transitions into the completed version, and it does not seem as though he'll be utilizing the ability again. In the anime, there is no escalation. Every time the form makes a return - Omen or completed - you can expect the same level of ability. In the manga, you get a sense of what Goku might capable of through Omen, and then you see it in full force.

Welcome to the world of Akira Toriyama. I don't know where you developed this iron-clad definition of what a transformation should or should not be used for thematically.
This is the most nonsensical defense of the manga I've ever read. Its like you are reaching really hard to defend Toyotaro's bad writing. If this was any other series in any other fandom it would be unanimously bashed for what it is.

Either way, your complains about the anime are obviously false. Each time Goku used the Omen in the anime, the results were more impressive than the last, with MUI completely blowing that out of the water. So anyone could see the escalation.

The only reason MUI in the manga seems like escalation is because its depiction of the Omen was so underwhelming that any showcase of competence would seem like an improvement.

And just because Toriyama writes/portrays things like transformations a certain way doesn't make it any good, let alone exempt from criticism.

I like how you complain about us manga-tards being REALLY MEAN TO YOU ANIME BOYS, WHY CAN'T WE JUST GET OVER OUR BIIIAAAAS?!!

And then you pretty much do the very thing that you complain about.


But again, every argument against the manga can be reduced to simply "I DIDN'T LIKE IT CAUSE THERE WASN'T ENOUGH ESPOLOSIONS/WHY DIDN'T THEY MAKE GOKU MOOOORE BADASS?!!

My point isn't that I think the Manga is the end all be all, and I increasingly believe that my enjoyment of the manga is directly proportionally to how much I hate the anime, but when you're arguing that Toyo is a terrible writer, and your only argument is that he didn't bloat the chapter with spectacle, so that's why UI is "useless" is, well, nonsense.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by zarmack » Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:11 pm

kemuri07 wrote:
zarmack wrote:
batistabus wrote: Omen in the anime isn't a sign of things to come, it is exactly the same as what is to come. The only reason it is described as being different was because it was too soon in the tournament to unveil the final version, but Toei wanted to have a hype double-feature special episode with an excuse to temporarily nerf Goku immediately afterwards. In the manga, Goku smoothly transitions into the completed version, and it does not seem as though he'll be utilizing the ability again. In the anime, there is no escalation. Every time the form makes a return - Omen or completed - you can expect the same level of ability. In the manga, you get a sense of what Goku might capable of through Omen, and then you see it in full force.

Welcome to the world of Akira Toriyama. I don't know where you developed this iron-clad definition of what a transformation should or should not be used for thematically.
This is the most nonsensical defense of the manga I've ever read. Its like you are reaching really hard to defend Toyotaro's bad writing. If this was any other series in any other fandom it would be unanimously bashed for what it is.

Either way, your complains about the anime are obviously false. Each time Goku used the Omen in the anime, the results were more impressive than the last, with MUI completely blowing that out of the water. So anyone could see the escalation.

The only reason MUI in the manga seems like escalation is because its depiction of the Omen was so underwhelming that any showcase of competence would seem like an improvement.

And just because Toriyama writes/portrays things like transformations a certain way doesn't make it any good, let alone exempt from criticism.

I like how you complain about us manga-tards being REALLY MEAN TO YOU ANIME BOYS, WHY CAN'T WE JUST GET OVER OUR BIIIAAAAS?!!

And then you pretty much do the very thing that you complain about.


But again, every argument against the manga can be reduced to simply "I DIDN'T LIKE IT CAUSE THERE WASN'T ENOUGH ESPOLOSIONS/WHY DIDN'T THEY MAKE GOKU MOOOORE BADASS?!!

My point isn't that I think the Manga is the end all be all, and I increasingly believe that my enjoyment of the manga is directly proportionally to how much I hate the anime, but when you're arguing that Toyo is a terrible writer, and your only argument is that he didn't bloat the chapter with spectacle, so that's why UI is "useless" is, well, nonsense.
In true manga-fanboy fashion, you make a strawman out of anyone who criticizes the manga from ANY standard smh. You just proven the stereotype.

Its funny how you talk about how the manga didn't "bloat the fight with spectable" when in reality, ALL fight scenes are essentially spectacles. Making your response extremely hypocritical and reflect poorly on both the manga and its fans.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:04 pm

zarmack wrote: In true manga-fanboy fashion, you make a strawman out of anyone who criticizes the manga from ANY standard smh. You just proven the stereotype.

Its funny how you talk about how the manga didn't "bloat the fight with spectable" when in reality, ALL fight scenes are essentially spectacles. Making your response extremely hypocritical and reflect poorly on both the manga and its fans.
It’s funny how changing words fanboy - complainer and criticize-enjoy , the results are similar.
Respect and healthy discussion might help for better discussions :D
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Saturnine » Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:13 pm

One of the things I liked about this latest chapter was Vegeta taking the lead. "With me now, Kakarot!"

I like it even more because it's in direct contrast with GT's "I'll follow your lead, Kakarot" and "On your mark, Kakarot" :D

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:20 pm

IM21 wrote:Toyo's Bardock doesn't look that bad.

Image
I really like this. I think it's my favorite Toyotaro drawing.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:30 pm

This manga really lost its way once the Tournament started, it's just plain boring now.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by reecehoward » Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:30 pm

Doctor. wrote:
IM21 wrote:Toyo's Bardock doesn't look that bad.

Image
I really like this. I think it's my favorite Toyotaro drawing.
It's one of the few pics from him in a non standard pose where the proportions and anatomy are spot on. No weird Toyo necks, no limp arms or misplaced shoulders. This IS perfect.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TobyS » Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:32 pm

Loving the manga Jiren seems like such an more human and consistent character.

No bs stamina coming and going, not all the Goku show, Jiren doesn't look like an idiot for letting Goku run around working his way up to being a threat to him. They start fighting early on. So much more coherent.

If Yamcha replaced Roshi and the humans had got to do literally any thing before getting KO'ed it'd be perfect IMO.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:30 pm

Re: Above: That idea that fight scenes exist only to showcase spectacle, and can thus only be judged in terms of how much they pack in, doesn't hold water with me. I'm...frankly not even sure how someone could get through all of Dragon Ball thinking that, considering how adept Toriyama is at—while yes, making them frenetic and exciting—also using them for clear story purposes.

UI does what it needs to in this chapter, and then some. As opposed to its direction in the anime, where omen is deftly handled but too much is actually done with the main technique, to the point it muddies the role it's supposed to play. I think, beyond its presentation in the manga more clearly identifying the completed versions strengths and distinct qualities, its use as misdirection is also well-played.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by reecehoward » Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:56 pm

Cipher wrote:Re: Above: That idea that fight scenes exist only to showcase spectacle, and can thus only be judged in terms of how much they pack in, doesn't hold water with me. I'm...frankly not even sure how someone could get through all of Dragon Ball thinking that, considering how adept Toriyama is at—while yes, making them frenetic and exciting—also using them for clear story purposes.

UI does what it needs to in this chapter, and then some. As opposed to its direction in the anime, where omen is deftly handled but too much is actually done with the main technique, to the point it muddies the role it's supposed to play. I think, beyond its presentation in the manga more clearly identifying the completed versions strengths and distinct qualities, its use as misdirection is also well-played.
Fight scenes should be both, ESPECIALLY if this is the big moment of an arc. Funny thing is, a show like Iron Fist was HEAVILY criticised for it's lack of spectacle and fight choreography with it supposedly being about a martial arts master in Danny Rand. The fights had a point, but to most they were boring or weren't memorable for a show centered around a character like Iron Fist. That type of criticism is well warranted, even though I personally enjoyed the show for what it was. This applies to any action series, specifically martial arts themed ones. You need that spectacle aspect to really sell the power and fluidity. Dragonball is no exception, considering spectacle has always been a major part. Look at Gohan vs Cell...most people remember that specifically for the transformation and that epic Kamehameha clash.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:31 am

Saturnine wrote:One of the things I liked about this latest chapter was Vegeta taking the lead. "With me now, Kakarot!"

I like it even more because it's in direct contrast with GT's "I'll follow your lead, Kakarot" and "On your mark, Kakarot" :D
Vegeta has always been sort of the straight man for Goku. And when it comes to fighting, Whis said it best - Vegeta usually thinks before attacking, so he's more bound for that leadership aspect.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Saturnine » Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:54 am

Rakurai wrote:
Saturnine wrote:One of the things I liked about this latest chapter was Vegeta taking the lead. "With me now, Kakarot!"

I like it even more because it's in direct contrast with GT's "I'll follow your lead, Kakarot" and "On your mark, Kakarot" :D
Vegeta has always been sort of the straight man for Goku. And when it comes to fighting, Whis said it best - Vegeta usually thinks before attacking, so he's more bound for that leadership aspect.
Exactly. And still, so many people keep saying that GT's character "progression" of Vegeta is more natural... (quotes deliberate, as I think it's more of a regression actually)

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Simere » Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:28 am

:eh:

This is why I don't like them teaming up: the conversations that follow. "Vegetto says Kakarot, so that means Vegeta is more dominant than Goku!"
Rakurai wrote:Vegeta has always been sort of the straight man for Goku. And when it comes to fighting, Whis said it best - Vegeta usually thinks before attacking, so he's more bound for that leadership aspect.
Whis said they both think too much before attacking, Vegeta especially. Thinking too much is not a positive thing. Analysis paralysis isn't something you'd want in leadership.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:14 am

Simere wrote:Thinking too much is not a positive thing. Analysis paralysis isn't something you'd want in leadership.
Analysis paralysis only happens when someone is what you described to the extreme. Vegeta isn't (except for the first Broly movie, which heavily mischaracterized him).
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Saturnine » Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:18 am

Simere wrote::eh:

This is why I don't like them teaming up: the conversations that follow. "Vegetto says Kakarot, so that means Vegeta is more dominant than Goku!"


But that's wrong. The only thing that Vegetto saying "Kakarot" implies is taht he has Vegeta's knowledge of Kakarot's origins, thanks to which he is able to see the usage of the name Kakarot as justified.

Whis said they both think too much before attacking, Vegeta especially. Thinking too much is not a positive thing. Analysis paralysis isn't something you'd want in leadership.


It's not about analysis paralysis though, it's about saving trillionth fractions of a second for movement, as was explained with the whole idea of UI.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lionel » Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:09 am

I did like the manga's rendition of the Goku verus Jiren climax fight. It's not as flashy as the anime but I felt it did a better job of presenting the technical bedrock of what Ultra Instinct is supposed to be about. If anything, I felt the visualised dye and contact job done to Goku's features was more than necessary for trying to give off a clear cut sign that Goku has "evolved" or whatever. Will Beerus' fur and eyes turn white when/if he ever hones his Ultra Instinct to the degree that Goku has? That doesn't seem important at the moment because he never seems to train (not to our knowledge at least).

Jiren's characterisation was petty and selfish but humanly relatable. At first his outward appearances suggests that he's a compassionate arbiter for the common folk but pressing the right buttons and saying the correct phrases can get you the more self-serving mercenary esque side of him. It's not quite so cliched as a simple vendetta of revenge for an unjust murder. Granted, that's far from saying his personality is flawless because it definitely isn't.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Simere » Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:34 am

TKA wrote:
Simere wrote:Thinking too much is not a positive thing. Analysis paralysis isn't something you'd want in leadership.
Analysis paralysis only happens when someone is what you described to the extreme. Vegeta isn't (except for the first Broly movie, which heavily mischaracterized him).
I'm really just saying Whis's statement shouldn't be used in support of Vegeta being a special kind of thinker. I wouldn't use it against him, either, but if you were going to read into what he said and apply it to another context, e.g. leadership, then I don't think it does him any favors. Overthinking is the quality Whis ascribed him, not thinking.

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