"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:16 pm

Thoughts on this?

Image

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by reecehoward » Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:31 pm

RecolorSaiyan wrote:Thoughts on this?

Image
I thought the whole point of "mastered" ssgss was to seal the aura...Now I'm confused.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:54 pm

reecehoward wrote:
RecolorSaiyan wrote:Thoughts on this?

Image
I thought the whole point of "mastered" ssgss was to seal the aura...Now I'm confused.
Its technically "Completed SSGSS", Not saying I am in full agreement with the image but I tend to agree that vegeta didn't get a "new form" in chapter 40 but moreso that he powered up ssb a huge amount and the different aura is just signifying a power upgrade like the previous one did. I guess i view it as lightning on super vegito, its not ssj2 but just a visual cue to tell us how powerful he was.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lukmendes » Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:11 pm

reecehoward wrote:
RecolorSaiyan wrote:Thoughts on this?

Image
I thought the whole point of "mastered" ssgss was to seal the aura...Now I'm confused.
That one is called "Completed SSGSS", and the one Vegeta achieved in ToP isn't named yet.

Anyways, I wouldn't really say that the Blue form Goku and Vegeta had before the tournament and the one during it are different transformations or even evolutions, since there's no mention of it, the three forms of Blue are default, completed, and whatever is that one Vegeta achieved, and they seem to be just evolutions of each other like SSJ1 and those more bulked up forms (Though in this case they only improve, since it doesn't look like there are drawbacks).

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by reecehoward » Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:35 pm

RecolorSaiyan wrote:
reecehoward wrote:
RecolorSaiyan wrote:Thoughts on this?

Image
I thought the whole point of "mastered" ssgss was to seal the aura...Now I'm confused.
Its technically "Completed SSGSS", Not saying I am in full agreement with the image but I tend to agree that vegeta didn't get a "new form" in chapter 40 but moreso that he powered up ssb a huge amount and the different aura is just signifying a power upgrade like the previous one did. I guess i view it as lightning on super vegito, its not ssj2 but just a visual cue to tell us how powerful he was.
Oh, i guess that makes sense. I do like the evolution of the aura as a visual cue.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by IM21 » Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:52 pm

completed ssjg doesn't have an aura or anything. It's sealead energy. That's why it doesn't make any sense he would have stamina problems after Vegeta said Goku mastered the form and uses it at 100%.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:19 pm

IM21 wrote:completed ssjg doesn't have an aura or anything. It's sealead energy. That's why it doesn't make any sense he would have stamina problems after Vegeta said Goku mastered the form and uses it at 100%.
Completed SSG?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by IM21 » Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:26 pm

Bergamo wrote:
IM21 wrote:completed ssjg doesn't have an aura or anything. It's sealead energy. That's why it doesn't make any sense he would have stamina problems after Vegeta said Goku mastered the form and uses it at 100%.
Completed SSG?
ups, sorry. i meant ssgss .

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by reecehoward » Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:31 pm

IM21 wrote:completed ssjg doesn't have an aura or anything. It's sealead energy. That's why it doesn't make any sense he would have stamina problems after Vegeta said Goku mastered the form and uses it at 100%.
I agree. I think that the whole stamina drain is a trope that should've been dropped after ssj3. That's one thing I hate about both iterations of Super, they take the flaws of previous forms and multiply them many times over, with even fusion becoming borderline useless.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by shadowfox87 » Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:54 pm

Hmm, I like this explanation and it's pretty consistent with what we knew already about ki leakage and stamina drain - concepts that were in DBZ for Super Saiyan Grades. Stamina drain is not just exclusive to SSJ3, but to every form. All forms have their own stamina drain but SSJ3 had the worst which is why it's an obsolete form. Even with the higher degree of control with god ki, it still has stamina drain. Ki isn't free. Though they missed "Completed SSB" in which there isn't an aura that should be AFTER "Advanced SSB". Goku and Vegeta both used it. Now, it seems that the "Mastered SSB" will have an aura only when they need to use their full power. Anyways, this just means that Goku will definitely get "Mastered SSB" later down the line whereas Vegeta may not get UI ever since he said himself it doesn't suit him and Whis agreed.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Xeztin » Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:18 pm

reecehoward wrote:
RecolorSaiyan wrote:
reecehoward wrote: I thought the whole point of "mastered" ssgss was to seal the aura...Now I'm confused.
Its technically "Completed SSGSS", Not saying I am in full agreement with the image but I tend to agree that vegeta didn't get a "new form" in chapter 40 but moreso that he powered up ssb a huge amount and the different aura is just signifying a power upgrade like the previous one did. I guess i view it as lightning on super vegito, its not ssj2 but just a visual cue to tell us how powerful he was.
Oh, i guess that makes sense. I do like the evolution of the aura as a visual cue.
I'm betting on Vegeta using Evolved Blue, I think that last panel with the thick aura was just a teaser. I'd be shocked if Toyotaro didn't use it as I kinda liked it :(

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by IM21 » Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:25 pm

Xeztin wrote:
reecehoward wrote:
RecolorSaiyan wrote:
Its technically "Completed SSGSS", Not saying I am in full agreement with the image but I tend to agree that vegeta didn't get a "new form" in chapter 40 but moreso that he powered up ssb a huge amount and the different aura is just signifying a power upgrade like the previous one did. I guess i view it as lightning on super vegito, its not ssj2 but just a visual cue to tell us how powerful he was.
Oh, i guess that makes sense. I do like the evolution of the aura as a visual cue.
I'm betting on Vegeta using Evolved Blue, I think that last panel with the thick aura was just a teaser. I'd be shocked if Toyotaro didn't use it as I kinda liked it :(
Don't think Vegeta will be getting it in the manga. In a black and white manga you can not even see the difference from normal blue to evolution. I also think Vegeta is geting eliminated in the first 10 pages of the next chapter if the arc is ending the next month.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:13 pm

RecolorSaiyan wrote:Thoughts on this?

Image
Where is this from?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:14 pm

Simere wrote: I'm really just saying Whis's statement shouldn't be used in support of Vegeta being a special kind of thinker.
It's as the user above you said: Vegeta's "fault" is that he thinks so much that his reactions are a microsecond slower than they would be otherwise.

Vegeta taking charge here is a notable thing though, since he prefers to just do his own thing by himself.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by reecehoward » Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:15 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:Hmm, I like this explanation and it's pretty consistent with what we knew already about ki leakage and stamina drain - concepts that were in DBZ for Super Saiyan Grades. Stamina drain is not just exclusive to SSJ3, but to every form. All forms have their own stamina drain but SSJ3 had the worst which is why it's an obsolete form. Even with the higher degree of control with god ki, it still has stamina drain. Ki isn't free. Though they missed "Completed SSB" in which there isn't an aura that should be AFTER "Advanced SSB". Goku and Vegeta both used it. Now, it seems that the "Mastered SSB" will have an aura only when they need to use their full power. Anyways, this just means that Goku will definitely get "Mastered SSB" later down the line whereas Vegeta may not get UI ever since he said himself it doesn't suit him and Whis agreed.
Of course it's not exclusive to Ssj3. I'm talking about severe stamina drain, which apparently was the case with Ssb in the manga. They can barely maintain the form. That kind of plot point, is redundant too me if they keep going running into that same issue.

Then you have the potara retcon which makes it possibly even more useless than the dance. All of these handicaps that are being used to create a sense of tension bugs me because the antagonists manage to get stronger without those handicaps in most cases, i see no reason that fighters of Goku and Vegeta's caliber should still not be able to effectively use and maintain their power for lengthy periods of time.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:25 pm

RecolorSaiyan wrote:Thoughts on this?

Image
It's an interesting theory, but some of it isn't very strongly supported.

The distinction between what the image refers to as "Initial" and "Advanced" Super Saiyan Blue is never made clear in the story proper. Honestly, I'm pretty sure "Initial" is just how Toyotaro originally drew the form before giving it more oomph.

"Mastered" is where it gets interesting, because the context surrounding its appearance demonstrates that it was intended to be distinguished from the incomplete/complete variations of Super Saiyan Blue. It doesn't seem to be a brand new form in the manga (unlike Evolution) but it's still a kind of "limit breaker" for Vegeta. And on a personal note, I dig the aura, even if I think it was totally unnecessary.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by shadowfox87 » Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:49 pm

reecehoward wrote: Of course it's not exclusive to Ssj3. I'm talking about severe stamina drain, which apparently was the case with Ssb in the manga. They can barely maintain the form. That kind of plot point, is redundant too me if they keep going running into that same issue.

Then you have the potara retcon which makes it possibly even more useless than the dance. All of these handicaps that are being used to create a sense of tension bugs me because the antagonists manage to get stronger without those handicaps in most cases, i see no reason that fighters of Goku and Vegeta's caliber should still not be able to effectively use and maintain their power for lengthy periods of time.
The potara for me wasn't a retcon. It was never explained why Vegito defused inside Buu's stomach. The previous explanation was because of the "air" in Buu's stomach. Now we have a better one. Elder Kaioshin just didn't know what he was talking about because normally, non-kaioshin don't use the potara. I think people just don't like it when their favorite characters get nerfed. For me, it doesn't matter if they get weaker or "handicaped" rather whether it's logical and makes the story interesting.

A newly transformed SSB would have stamina drain. For Vegeta, he used it twice in the U6 tournament which made his power not even 10% against Hit. This is also fine. Any new transformation takes time to control and master. Just because Goku and Vegeta are proficient fighters, it won't mean there won't be a lack of energy drain. There's always energy drain. Ki isn't free.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:56 pm

shadowfox87 wrote: The potara for me wasn't a retcon. It was never explained why Vegito defused inside Buu's stomach. The previous explanation was because of the "air" in Buu's stomach.
In the most technical sense, it isn't a retcon, no. (Though I could get even MORE technical and explain why it is still a retcon, but people don't traditionally use the word as it was originally intended anymore, so it's a moot point.)

But it sure does feel like a retcon.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Steven Bloodriver » Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:13 pm

reecehoward wrote:
shadowfox87 wrote:Hmm, I like this explanation and it's pretty consistent with what we knew already about ki leakage and stamina drain - concepts that were in DBZ for Super Saiyan Grades. Stamina drain is not just exclusive to SSJ3, but to every form. All forms have their own stamina drain but SSJ3 had the worst which is why it's an obsolete form. Even with the higher degree of control with god ki, it still has stamina drain. Ki isn't free. Though they missed "Completed SSB" in which there isn't an aura that should be AFTER "Advanced SSB". Goku and Vegeta both used it. Now, it seems that the "Mastered SSB" will have an aura only when they need to use their full power. Anyways, this just means that Goku will definitely get "Mastered SSB" later down the line whereas Vegeta may not get UI ever since he said himself it doesn't suit him and Whis agreed.
Of course it's not exclusive to Ssj3. I'm talking about severe stamina drain, which apparently was the case with Ssb in the manga. They can barely maintain the form. That kind of plot point, is redundant too me if they keep going running into that same issue.

Then you have the potara retcon which makes it possibly even more useless than the dance. All of these handicaps that are being used to create a sense of tension bugs me because the antagonists manage to get stronger without those handicaps in most cases, i see no reason that fighters of Goku and Vegeta's caliber should still not be able to effectively use and maintain their power for lengthy periods of time.
The only explanation I can give is Akira Toriyama and Toyotarō have completely stopped caring for any actual logic in the Dragon World since Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods had been building in the very back of Akira Toriyama’s mind less than ten years ago and just want to shamelessly contradict, and then, retcon the absolute hell out of everything and everyone they can get their audacious little hands on for a very sizable profit.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by reecehoward » Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:56 pm

Steven Bloodriver wrote:
reecehoward wrote:
shadowfox87 wrote:Hmm, I like this explanation and it's pretty consistent with what we knew already about ki leakage and stamina drain - concepts that were in DBZ for Super Saiyan Grades. Stamina drain is not just exclusive to SSJ3, but to every form. All forms have their own stamina drain but SSJ3 had the worst which is why it's an obsolete form. Even with the higher degree of control with god ki, it still has stamina drain. Ki isn't free. Though they missed "Completed SSB" in which there isn't an aura that should be AFTER "Advanced SSB". Goku and Vegeta both used it. Now, it seems that the "Mastered SSB" will have an aura only when they need to use their full power. Anyways, this just means that Goku will definitely get "Mastered SSB" later down the line whereas Vegeta may not get UI ever since he said himself it doesn't suit him and Whis agreed.
Of course it's not exclusive to Ssj3. I'm talking about severe stamina drain, which apparently was the case with Ssb in the manga. They can barely maintain the form. That kind of plot point, is redundant too me if they keep going running into that same issue.

Then you have the potara retcon which makes it possibly even more useless than the dance. All of these handicaps that are being used to create a sense of tension bugs me because the antagonists manage to get stronger without those handicaps in most cases, i see no reason that fighters of Goku and Vegeta's caliber should still not be able to effectively use and maintain their power for lengthy periods of time.
The only explanation I can give is Akira Toriyama and Toyotarō have completely stopped caring for any actual logic in the Dragon World since Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods had been building in the very back of Akira Toriyama’s mind less than ten years ago and just want to shamelessly contradict, and then, retcon the absolute hell out of everything and everyone they can get their audacious little hands on for a very sizable profit.
Well, the reason the potara one was particularly stupid is because both versions(manga and anime) have the plot point of Kibitokai using the dragonballs to defuse. Everyone in their right mind assumed that this was setting up for Vegito's return, which would make a lot of sense in order for Vegito to not be a permanent thing. There was no need for this retcon other than to add a sense of tension for a Vegito fight, which doesn't work for my sensibilities personally. Once you introduce obvious weaknesses such as time limits and stamina drains, the fights become hella predictable to me.

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