"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by sintzu » Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:12 am

TKA wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:18 pm
Does Merus have any flaws? Thoroughly uninteresting and good at everything he does. He hasn't done a single thing that makes me think "Wow, this arc couldn't have worked without him."
I have to agree with this. Ever since he was introduced all we've been hearing and seeing is how perfect he is. The point was clearly to make him a likeable character but all its done is make him unlikable. The best way to make a character interesting is to make them flawed. That's one of the reasons why so many fans like characters like Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, etc., they mess up but manage to come back stronger than before.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by dbzfan7 » Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:39 pm

Was there anything that said Toriyama didn't write this story? He tends to at least have the basic outline for it, as well as approve anything that happens in it. I apply the good and bad things to both of them rather than shoulder it on just Toyo.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Alruneia » Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:48 pm

dbzfan7 wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:39 pm
Was there anything that said Toriyama didn't write this story? He tends to at least have the basic outline for it, as well as approve anything that happens in it. I apply the good and bad things to both of them rather than shoulder it on just Toyo.
No. Toriyama is still credited for the story each chapter. Toyotaro being behind the story is an assumption a lot of people, both in this thread and elsewhere, are making due to how the story is unfolding, but nothing has directly confirmed that assumption, at least not yet.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:06 pm

Toyotaro said he was "teaming up" with Toriyama. Getting a lot of praise "as I make it." Concluding, "I'm hoping to make it an enjoyable story."

The way this arc has been going, certainly feels like Toyotaro has been writing the plot. The dragging out of events events and the stalling certainly doesn't seem like Toriyama's style.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by dbzfan7 » Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:13 pm

Alruneia wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:48 pm
dbzfan7 wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:39 pm
Was there anything that said Toriyama didn't write this story? He tends to at least have the basic outline for it, as well as approve anything that happens in it. I apply the good and bad things to both of them rather than shoulder it on just Toyo.
No. Toriyama is still credited for the story each chapter. Toyotaro being behind the story is an assumption a lot of people, both in this thread and elsewhere, are making due to how the story is unfolding, but nothing has directly confirmed that assumption, at least not yet.
That's why I usually put praise and faults on both of them. Toriyama tends to have the outline, Toyotaro expands on it, and then Toriyama looks over it and does his changes or gives the ok. That's what I thought was said to be the process. In which case I would think if Toriyama didn't like a story beat/pacing he'd say something about it. Which personally makes me believe he's ok with what the manga is putting out. Whether that's good or not is a whole other story though.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:50 am

dbzfan7 wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:13 pm
Alruneia wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:48 pm
dbzfan7 wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:39 pm
Was there anything that said Toriyama didn't write this story? He tends to at least have the basic outline for it, as well as approve anything that happens in it. I apply the good and bad things to both of them rather than shoulder it on just Toyo.
No. Toriyama is still credited for the story each chapter. Toyotaro being behind the story is an assumption a lot of people, both in this thread and elsewhere, are making due to how the story is unfolding, but nothing has directly confirmed that assumption, at least not yet.
That's why I usually put praise and faults on both of them. Toriyama tends to have the outline, Toyotaro expands on it, and then Toriyama looks over it and does his changes or gives the ok. That's what I thought was said to be the process. In which case I would think if Toriyama didn't like a story beat/pacing he'd say something about it. Which personally makes me believe he's ok with what the manga is putting out. Whether that's good or not is a whole other story though.
I don’t see why Toriyama would be against this story. It’s relatively harmless and fillerish. And it’s the same guy who was okay with the UI Roshi chapter which had both Roshi and Goku very out of character so it’s not like he’s strict at all.
We also don’t know what’s going on behind the scenes. Maybe Toyotaro wanted to add more of his ideas to give more weight to this story and Toriyama was against it as they went against his future plans? We may never know this.
And it’s possible that some of the Jaco gags have been Toriyama’s ideas/corrected by him as they are nice.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:03 am

emperior wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:50 am
And it’s the same guy who was okay with the UI Roshi chapter which had both Roshi and Goku very out of character so it’s not like he’s strict at all.
Neither was out of character.

We also know that Toriyama is pretty strict with things like that. He vetoed Marcarita having any kind of fondness for Vermouth and often redraws characters' expressions to ones that fit them more.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:41 pm

Yeah, how was Roshi and Goku out of character with the whole Ultra Instinct bit?

Goku did nothing but rely on power ups for strength improvement. Roshi came in and reminded him about true strength. The basic spiritual principles from his past training. If Goku did remember he would of achieved UI without Roshi since it's based on his early disciplines.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by dbzfan7 » Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:18 pm

emperior wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:50 am
dbzfan7 wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:13 pm
Alruneia wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:48 pm

No. Toriyama is still credited for the story each chapter. Toyotaro being behind the story is an assumption a lot of people, both in this thread and elsewhere, are making due to how the story is unfolding, but nothing has directly confirmed that assumption, at least not yet.
That's why I usually put praise and faults on both of them. Toriyama tends to have the outline, Toyotaro expands on it, and then Toriyama looks over it and does his changes or gives the ok. That's what I thought was said to be the process. In which case I would think if Toriyama didn't like a story beat/pacing he'd say something about it. Which personally makes me believe he's ok with what the manga is putting out. Whether that's good or not is a whole other story though.
I don’t see why Toriyama would be against this story. It’s relatively harmless and fillerish. And it’s the same guy who was okay with the UI Roshi chapter which had both Roshi and Goku very out of character so it’s not like he’s strict at all.
We also don’t know what’s going on behind the scenes. Maybe Toyotaro wanted to add more of his ideas to give more weight to this story and Toriyama was against it as they went against his future plans? We may never know this.
And it’s possible that some of the Jaco gags have been Toriyama’s ideas/corrected by him as they are nice.
We really don't, but we know it does go by him. So I doubt he'd just let give it the go ahead if he didn't approve or like what he was seeing. I consider success and failures on both of them because of this rather than anything good is Toriyama and anything bad is Toyotaro, etc.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:36 pm

Miracles wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:41 pm
Yeah, how was Roshi and Goku out of character with the whole Ultra Instinct bit?

Goku did nothing but rely on power ups for strength improvement. Roshi came in and reminded him about true strength. The basic spiritual principles from his past training. If Goku did remember he would of achieved UI without Roshi since it's based on his early disciplines.
I found it completely out of place for Roshi of all people to remind Goku of his early trainings and to not rely only on power, considering it was him who trained Goku only physically, with Korin, Popo/Kami and Whis being the ones who tried to teach him something more substantial than “just get stronger lol”.
It’s even weirder because not only did Roshi retire in order to let the next generation take over (which was one of the main themes of the manga that Toriyama and company are completely forgetting nowadays) but he also was never even considered worthy of training under Kami, and he shouldn’t know of any other teachings Goku received besides Korin’s ones. Also, thinking about it, since when did Roshi even learn how to sense ki? Was that Battle of Gods?

And for Goku to look like a complete amateur was silly. This is the same Goku that Cell was calling “a seasoned veteran” and who constantly got praise for his fighting skills and intelligence and always surpassed every single master he had besides Whis in little time. The fact he wasn’t as strong as Jiren shouldn’t be an excuse to make him look like a clueless fighter. In this regard, the anime treated ToP Goku much, much better. Same for Roshi.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Noitsnothim » Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:25 pm

emperior wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:36 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:41 pm
Yeah, how was Roshi and Goku out of character with the whole Ultra Instinct bit?

Goku did nothing but rely on power ups for strength improvement. Roshi came in and reminded him about true strength. The basic spiritual principles from his past training. If Goku did remember he would of achieved UI without Roshi since it's based on his early disciplines.
I found it completely out of place for Roshi of all people to remind Goku of his early trainings and to not rely only on power, considering it was him who trained Goku only physically, with Korin, Popo/Kami and Whis being the ones who tried to teach him something more substantial than “just get stronger lol”.
It’s even weirder because not only did Roshi retire in order to let the next generation take over (which was one of the main themes of the manga that Toriyama and company are completely forgetting nowadays) but he also was never even considered worthy of training under Kami, and he shouldn’t know of any other teachings Goku received besides Korin’s ones. Also, thinking about it, since when did Roshi even learn how to sense ki? Was that Battle of Gods?

And for Goku to look like a complete amateur was silly. This is the same Goku that Cell was calling “a seasoned veteran” and who constantly got praise for his fighting skills and intelligence and always surpassed every single master he had besides Whis in little time. The fact he wasn’t as strong as Jiren shouldn’t be an excuse to make him look like a clueless fighter. In this regard, the anime treated ToP Goku much, much better. Same for Roshi.
It was utterly stupid for Goku to call himself a bad student (HOW WAS HE A BAD STUDENT?) I'm okay with Roshi reminding him of the basics because after all he was his first master and Goku was in the heat of battle and Saiyan's instinct is "Shit if I Power up more the gap between me and my opponent should close or shorten" but it was to no avail and that's fine

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Noitsnothim » Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:30 pm

You know this Saga would be a great Introduction to Piccolo's red eye God form that Namekians get in DBO (DB Online) & Heroes In order to be on par with SSG

It'd be good to have him defend the Namekians alongside Vegeta and Goku takes the backseat

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:44 pm

emperior wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:36 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:41 pm
Yeah, how was Roshi and Goku out of character with the whole Ultra Instinct bit?

Goku did nothing but rely on power ups for strength improvement. Roshi came in and reminded him about true strength. The basic spiritual principles from his past training. If Goku did remember he would of achieved UI without Roshi since it's based on his early disciplines.
I found it completely out of place for Roshi of all people to remind Goku of his early trainings and to not rely only on power, considering it was him who trained Goku only physically, with Korin, Popo/Kami and Whis being the ones who tried to teach him something more substantial than “just get stronger lol”.
It’s even weirder because not only did Roshi retire in order to let the next generation take over (which was one of the main themes of the manga that Toriyama and company are completely forgetting nowadays) but he also was never even considered worthy of training under Kami, and he shouldn’t know of any other teachings Goku received besides Korin’s ones. Also, thinking about it, since when did Roshi even learn how to sense ki? Was that Battle of Gods?

And for Goku to look like a complete amateur was silly. This is the same Goku that Cell was calling “a seasoned veteran” and who constantly got praise for his fighting skills and intelligence and always surpassed every single master he had besides Whis in little time. The fact he wasn’t as strong as Jiren shouldn’t be an excuse to make him look like a clueless fighter. In this regard, the anime treated ToP Goku much, much better. Same for Roshi.
TOEI randomly gave Goku UI, through being overcome by large amounts of energy. It was not good writing. While Toyotaro coherently continued Dragonball manga canon with principles from Toriyama's story. Goku looking back at a CERTAIN ASPECT of his teachings didn't make him look like an amateur. He was so focused on the power side for the latter part of Dragonball he forgot about the spiritual side of battle. Cell's golf claps was concerning Goku's power and are meaningless to this specific subject on what Roshi and Whis are addressing.

Roshi trained under Korin who in turn taught Goku principles of UI. So Roshi would know about it. Roshi didn't only train Goku physically but he also reminded him of his mental teaching, similar to UI, about martial arts being about "not losing to oneself" and not just about beating the opponent through power. Which is in line with the internal self discipline taught by Kami Korin, Popo and Whis. Roshi is very consistent with the theme presented here.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Tai Lung » Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:56 am

Well, I think that the saga of Moro is about to end but until now it seems the most boring I've seen ...
zamasu (manga / anime) has more charisma than .... moro certainly.
it seems that toyotaro doesn't know another way to present the new characters, merus is equal to kale (manga) and cabba (manga) "seem interesting and mysterious at first doing things that should not do" but then they are really insipid and without grace.
Goku does not really fit in here .. I feel that this would have been more interesting if they were vegeta, buu and piccolo
the fight in space was fantastic at first but it was only a moro vs grand supreme kai and no showing scene like beerus vs champa in space
the only good thing has been the buu fight and some moro skills, I can 't speak of kid buu and its potential is a bit out of context

if the desire for moro turns out to be the immortality ... this will feel even more disappointing :crazy:

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by sintzu » Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:12 am

Tai Lung wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:56 am
Well, I think that the saga of Moro is about to end but until now it seems the most boring I've seen ...
It was interesting up until he beat Goku and Vegeta, but after that things kind of just stopped.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:07 am

Best thing about the chapter was Merus fighting, really enjoy his style. Likewise with Mr.Boo before. I'm kinda disappointed this was the direction this arc went with him, DaI Kaioshin basically replacing isn't interesting. There should have been a balance where Mr.Boo's character had more control and therefore development.

Regarding the rest of the chapter, fighting in space was cool like was Meerus but there's been far to many confrontations with Moro that led to nowhere. This arc got to a confrontation with the antagonist far too quickly.
We needed more set up, something like Moro escaping prison and slowly regaining power until reaching Namek.

Goku, Vegeta and Mr.Boo likewise needed a bit more prep instead of just jumping into action. We got a bit of Merus exposure at least while capturing those random villains.

Overall, this arc has been mediocre. Clearly inferior to the previous two and currently worst than the Universe 6 arc which had the handicap of limited pages and localized rushing.

Unless we are still very early in the arc and this is a small drop on a bigger storyline it doesn't look good.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by sintzu » Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:15 am

LightBing wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:07 am
Unless we are still very early in the arc and this is a small drop on a bigger storyline it doesn't look good.
I don't think this is the beginning to something bigger. At this point what we're seeing is what we're getting, which is most likely 70% or so complete. A few months ago I thought this would be a long arc, but based on how slow the last few chapters have been, it's clearly a short story being dragged out to seem longer than it actually is.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:56 am

Miracles wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:44 pm
emperior wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:36 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:41 pm
Yeah, how was Roshi and Goku out of character with the whole Ultra Instinct bit?

Goku did nothing but rely on power ups for strength improvement. Roshi came in and reminded him about true strength. The basic spiritual principles from his past training. If Goku did remember he would of achieved UI without Roshi since it's based on his early disciplines.
I found it completely out of place for Roshi of all people to remind Goku of his early trainings and to not rely only on power, considering it was him who trained Goku only physically, with Korin, Popo/Kami and Whis being the ones who tried to teach him something more substantial than “just get stronger lol”.
It’s even weirder because not only did Roshi retire in order to let the next generation take over (which was one of the main themes of the manga that Toriyama and company are completely forgetting nowadays) but he also was never even considered worthy of training under Kami, and he shouldn’t know of any other teachings Goku received besides Korin’s ones. Also, thinking about it, since when did Roshi even learn how to sense ki? Was that Battle of Gods?

And for Goku to look like a complete amateur was silly. This is the same Goku that Cell was calling “a seasoned veteran” and who constantly got praise for his fighting skills and intelligence and always surpassed every single master he had besides Whis in little time. The fact he wasn’t as strong as Jiren shouldn’t be an excuse to make him look like a clueless fighter. In this regard, the anime treated ToP Goku much, much better. Same for Roshi.
TOEI randomly gave Goku UI, through being overcome by large amounts of energy. It was not good writing. While Toyotaro coherently continued Dragonball manga canon with principles from Toriyama's story. Goku looking back at a CERTAIN ASPECT of his teachings didn't make him look like an amateur. He was so focused on the power side for the latter part of Dragonball he forgot about the spiritual side of battle. Cell's golf claps was concerning Goku's power and are meaningless to this specific subject on what Roshi and Whis are addressing.

Roshi trained under Korin who in turn taught Goku principles of UI. So Roshi would know about it. Roshi didn't only train Goku physically but he also reminded him of his mental teaching, similar to UI, about martial arts being about "not losing to oneself" and not just about beating the opponent through power. Which is in line with the internal self discipline taught by Kami Korin, Popo and Whis. Roshi is very consistent with the theme presented here.
I guess Goku is back to his “only power counts” mood ever since the ToP ended because he hasn’t been able to achieve Ultra Instinct again, right?
Or maybe it was always supposed to be something which had to happen randomly.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:09 am

sintzu wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:15 am
LightBing wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:07 am
Unless we are still very early in the arc and this is a small drop on a bigger storyline it doesn't look good.
I don't think this is the beginning to something bigger. At this point what we're seeing is what we're getting, which is most likely 70% or so complete. A few months ago I thought this would be a long arc, but based on how slow the last few chapters have been, it's clearly a short story being dragged out to seem longer than it actually is.
I'm not that confident either but there's still Moro's wish and his motivations. This could turn out to be simply be immortality and evil for the sake of being evil. Hopefully not and it's something that allows expansion.

There's also the slim possibility some suits are pushing this back. Let's say a new series is in the works and they want to announce like crazy with "Goku recruits Broly and Pride Troopers to stop a multi-universe threat Moro in the new Dragon Ball series!!!"

Also a slim chance but you never know, we've just had two cliffhangers about Moro's third wish...

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Tai Lung » Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:02 pm

sintzu wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:12 am
Tai Lung wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:56 am
Well, I think that the saga of Moro is about to end but until now it seems the most boring I've seen ...
It was interesting up until he beat Goku and Vegeta, but after that things kind of just stopped.
Yes, but it was really because of the skills and magic of the Moors that they are at least imaginative, something that the TOP manga lacked and probably the Connection between vegeta and the namekians but nevertheless Vegeta has not saved anyone yet to justify their forgiveness. all the namekians are dead.

--------------------

and I've almost noticed the total absence of minor villains
Vegeta = nappa and raditz
frieza = zarbon, dodoria, ginyu force etc
Buu = dabura and babidi and soldiers of babidi
Cell = cell jr
17 and 18 = dr gero and android 19
black = zamasu present and zamasu future?
Moro = ??? the no one's favorite frieza's soldier ...

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