"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
Kaiza_Toshiyuki
Temporarily Banned
Posts: 262
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:32 pm
Location: South Carolina

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiza_Toshiyuki » Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:26 am

TKA wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:58 pm

Again, I think it's perfectly okay to want to see him pull out a necronomicon and start doing weird spells, hexes, and so on.

But, also again, I don't think when discussing the quality of the arc that can be levied as a valid criticism. It isn't. If someone in the story said "Wow, that Moro guy Daikoshin beat sure had a bunch of wacky, crazy spells," then it would be a valid critique. But since the day he's been introduced until now, it's his ability to absorb energy that has been the focus.

He presents a unique threat to the main characters, and their typical modus operandi (power up, beat up villain) actively doesn't work against him since he just absorbs their power.

A unique threat is one of the most important things you can ask of any villain, but especially a villain of a long-running series.
I agree with this assessment. Its not much a criticism. But at the same time while it would be cool to see magic like illusions and such, Moro isn't the villain for that. Thats more suited for a different wizard, or maybe for if they canonize Janemba, but not Moro.

I think that fluffing up Moro with a very large assortment of spells wouldn't add anything to the story besides flashy cool techniques. Not to mention it takes away the dangerous nature of his absorption magic if he has the ability to create illusions. And I feel confident to say that if he had illusion magic instead of absorption magic, he would have been defeated the first time Vegeta fought him.

Its ok to want more interesting magic, I just don't think Moro is the magic user to do this with.

User avatar
mute_proxy
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 968
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:09 am
Location: Planet 4032-877

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by mute_proxy » Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:04 am

Kaiza_Toshiyuki wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:26 am


I agree with this assessment. Its not much a criticism. But at the same time while it would be cool to see magic like illusions and such, Moro isn't the villain for that. Thats more suited for a different wizard, or maybe for if they canonize Janemba, but not Moro.

I think that fluffing up Moro with a very large assortment of spells wouldn't add anything to the story besides flashy cool techniques. Not to mention it takes away the dangerous nature of his absorption magic if he has the ability to create illusions. And I feel confident to say that if he had illusion magic instead of absorption magic, he would have been defeated the first time Vegeta fought him.

Its ok to want more interesting magic, I just don't think Moro is the magic user to do this with.
Some people just don't want another energy absorbing (androids), youth desiring (king piccolo), evil for the sake of being evil (freeza) gimmick of a character. The best we've seen him do is lift and move things with telekinesis (anyone can do that on different scales). At the moment he's a mishmash of things we've seen before, turning him into a magic/illusions/crazy shit kind of character would change things for the better. It would feel less like a filler arc too.

User avatar
anubisj
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:22 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by anubisj » Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:11 am

So if saying "Moro doesn´t have creative abilities, in my opinion" is not valid criticism, then what is? I´m curious to know your perspective. I do have to say that I can and will probably elaborate more on what I don´t like about the arc and the villain at some point, but still, I find the above opinion as valid an argument as any other.

Also, remember that it was said Moro had magical powers, so it´s not as if I was saying "I expected this ordinary villain to have this weird, awesome ability; since it doesn´t have that, I´m mad at Toyo!" :lol: This was one chance to have a truly unique villain, but so far, it has disappointed me in that regard.

You might say that this is not...eh, "Moro´s fault" (lol), but unfortunately for our beloved goatman :twisted: he is just the latest in a looooong range of vilains, all of them with their own stuff, so yeah, time to spice things up. By the way, nice mention of the forbidden book @TKA, I didn´t expect that. :lol: But no, I don´t think mixing the Mythos with Dragon Ball is a good idea.

User avatar
Kaiza_Toshiyuki
Temporarily Banned
Posts: 262
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:32 pm
Location: South Carolina

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiza_Toshiyuki » Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:27 am

mute_proxy wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:04 am
Kaiza_Toshiyuki wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:26 am


I agree with this assessment. Its not much a criticism. But at the same time while it would be cool to see magic like illusions and such, Moro isn't the villain for that. Thats more suited for a different wizard, or maybe for if they canonize Janemba, but not Moro.

I think that fluffing up Moro with a very large assortment of spells wouldn't add anything to the story besides flashy cool techniques. Not to mention it takes away the dangerous nature of his absorption magic if he has the ability to create illusions. And I feel confident to say that if he had illusion magic instead of absorption magic, he would have been defeated the first time Vegeta fought him.

Its ok to want more interesting magic, I just don't think Moro is the magic user to do this with.
Some people just don't want another energy absorbing (androids), youth desiring (king piccolo), evil for the sake of being evil (freeza) gimmick of a character. The best we've seen him do is lift and move things with telekinesis (anyone can do that on different scales). At the moment he's a mishmash of things we've seen before, turning him into a magic/illusions/crazy shit kind of character would change things for the better. It would feel less like a filler arc too.
Moro isn't just evil for the sake of being evil like frieza. They had completely different motivation. Frieza just want's to control the entire universe. Why? Because evil. Moro wants to destroy the galactic patrol. Why. To create a galaxy where no one can stop him from eating planets when he so pleases.Keep in mind, we have more of a motivation for a villain in one unfinished written by TOYOTARO of all people than one with an entire arc and a movie.

Not to mention he didn't want youth so the king piccolo comparison is just wrong. And I would say that Moro has thematically utilized it in a way better way than the androids did. With the androids it was "Don't let them touch you". With Moro, that won't help you, which makes him much more Dangerous. And I don't see why using an ability from the past ( that in my opinion was used poorly) to make a villain dangerous is a negative.

User avatar
mute_proxy
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 968
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:09 am
Location: Planet 4032-877

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by mute_proxy » Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:07 pm

Kaiza_Toshiyuki wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:27 am


Moro isn't just evil for the sake of being evil like frieza. They had completely different motivation. Frieza just want's to control the entire universe. Why? Because evil. Moro wants to destroy the galactic patrol. Why. To create a galaxy where no one can stop him from eating planets when he so pleases.Keep in mind, we have more of a motivation for a villain in one unfinished written by TOYOTARO of all people than one with an entire arc and a movie.

Not to mention he didn't want youth so the king piccolo comparison is just wrong. And I would say that Moro has thematically utilized it in a way better way than the androids did. With the androids it was "Don't let them touch you". With Moro, that won't help you, which makes him much more Dangerous. And I don't see why using an ability from the past ( that in my opinion was used poorly) to make a villain dangerous is a negative.
I call that semantics. It's a negative if every detail resembles previous ideas. But that's just my opinion. I want to be impressed by new ideas, not reminded of the old ones.

User avatar
TheSaiyanGod
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1286
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:09 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:20 pm

I understand the criticism of some people who don't think that Moro is a unique character. But the fact is that the energy absorption was barely used in the series (and when used to a very limited extent, Moro uses it at a level that really gives the heroes trouble). Telekinesis has also always been superficially explored. And no one canonically showed the ability to manipulate vital energy (especially from an entire planet).
So while some of their abilities have already been seen, I feel their potential was best shown by Moro.

And although not conducted in such a good way, I believe the fact that these skills make Moro someone who can't be beaten with successive power ups is interesting.

Dbzfan94
I Live Here
Posts: 4818
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:16 pm
Location: Mt. Paozu

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Dbzfan94 » Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:21 pm

Kaiza_Toshiyuki wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:27 am

Moro isn't just evil for the sake of being evil like frieza. They had completely different motivation. Freeza wants to control the entire universe. Moro wants to destroy the galactic patrol. Why. To create a galaxy where no one can stop him from eating planets when he so pleases.Keep in mind, we have more of a motivation for a villain in one unfinished written by TOYOTARO of all people than one with an entire arc and a movie.
These two reasonings are pretty much the same. Freeza wants to rule the universe and doesnt want anyone in his way, just because. Moro wants to eat planets and doesn't want anyone in his way, just because. I dont see much of a difference. You're nitpicking too much there.

User avatar
Kaiza_Toshiyuki
Temporarily Banned
Posts: 262
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:32 pm
Location: South Carolina

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiza_Toshiyuki » Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:28 pm

Dbzfan94 wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:21 pm
Kaiza_Toshiyuki wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:27 am

Moro isn't just evil for the sake of being evil like frieza. They had completely different motivation. Freeza wants to control the entire universe. Moro wants to destroy the galactic patrol. Why. To create a galaxy where no one can stop him from eating planets when he so pleases.Keep in mind, we have more of a motivation for a villain in one unfinished written by TOYOTARO of all people than one with an entire arc and a movie.
These two reasonings are pretty much the same. Freeza wants to rule the universe and doesnt want anyone in his way, just because. Moro wants to eat planets and doesn't want anyone in his way, just because. I dont see much of a difference. You're nitpicking too much there.
Its not that frieza didn't want anyone in his way, its that he thought no one could beat him (which is kinda retconed in RoF when we learned he knew about Majin Buu and Beerus but lets ignore that for a sec). Moro knows people can beat him, and is taking measures to stop them. Frieza was over confident and thought he was the most powerful emperor in the universe. Its his overconfidence that will got him killed at the end of the arc, which was the theme.

Difference.

User avatar
TKA
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 768
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:26 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:55 pm

anubisj wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:11 am
So if saying "Moro doesn´t have creative abilities, in my opinion" is not valid criticism, then what is? I´m curious to know your perspective.
Criticize his influence on the plot. Criticize his motivation. Criticize how he fits into the themes of the arc, or the general themes of the manga and franchise. These are all examples of fair criticisms because they can be argued for and against using evidence in the story.

"He didn't use enough cool spells" isn't an arguable point. The story never tried to claim that he knows 1004 spells. His entire menace is built on the fact that he knows one really good spell.

Beyond that, it's also just a boring thing to argue about that doesn't help anyone understand the writing better. It's binary. Either he used enough spells or he didn't. There's nothing to be gained from talking about that. Talking about his role and how that changed the structure of the arc is something that can be spoken about extensively and is fairly high level discussion.
The Creatives who inspire me: Akira Toriyama, George Lucas, Chris Nolan, J. R. R. Tolkien and Zack Snyder


http://i.imgur.com/XAnj7Yi.jpg

You saw Batman v Superman? Is it the Ultimate Edition? No? Then you haven't seen Batman v Superman. Batman is out there busting his ass to avenge Goku and you won't even go see him do it?!

User avatar
anubisj
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:22 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by anubisj » Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:03 am

TKA wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:55 pm
anubisj wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:11 am
So if saying "Moro doesn´t have creative abilities, in my opinion" is not valid criticism, then what is? I´m curious to know your perspective.
Criticize his influence on the plot. Criticize his motivation. Criticize how he fits into the themes of the arc, or the general themes of the manga and franchise. These are all examples of fair criticisms because they can be argued for and against using evidence in the story.

"He didn't use enough cool spells" isn't an arguable point. The story never tried to claim that he knows 1004 spells. His entire menace is built on the fact that he knows one really good spell.

Beyond that, it's also just a boring thing to argue about that doesn't help anyone understand the writing better. It's binary. Either he used enough spells or he didn't. There's nothing to be gained from talking about that. Talking about his role and how that changed the structure of the arc is something that can be spoken about extensively and is fairly high level discussion.
Alright, let´s agree to disagree then, I still think my argument is fairly substantial, but you evidently don´t share my opinion, and neither of us is budging; plus I think it would be better if we focused on discussing the Moro arc, and not discussing how we discuss the Moro arc.

User avatar
wolflonnie
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 286
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:57 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by wolflonnie » Thu Jul 25, 2019 5:04 am

I don't think Moro is that unique a character either but he isn't even a carbon copy of the characters he is similiar to, which is important.
I think he's distinct enough, although not remotely as compelling as the likes of Zamasu.

User avatar
Lord Beerus
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20496
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:20 pm
Location: A temple on a giant tree
Contact:

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:26 am

wolflonnie wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 5:04 am
I don't think Moro is that unique a character either but he isn't even a carbon copy of the characters he is similiar to, which is important.
I think he's distinct enough, although not remotely as compelling as the likes of Zamasu.
Moro is basically an amalgamation of the major antagonistic elements of Dragon Ball Z movie 6. He has Turles stock, generic doomsday villain personality and the mystical capabilities of the Tree Of Might.

User avatar
Grand Marshal 1
Regular
Posts: 567
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:33 pm
Location: Greece

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:54 am

Lord Beerus wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:26 am
wolflonnie wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 5:04 am
I don't think Moro is that unique a character either but he isn't even a carbon copy of the characters he is similiar to, which is important.
I think he's distinct enough, although not remotely as compelling as the likes of Zamasu.
Moro is basically an amalgamation of the major antagonistic elements of Dragon Ball Z movie 6. He has Turles stock, generic doomsday villain personality and the mystical capabilities of the Tree Of Might.
The Tree of Might was a very good example. This opens a whole new idea in potential new ideas for Super fans like me who try to predict future outcomes.
My posts will speak for myself! :)

User avatar
TKA
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 768
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:26 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:39 am

I think Cell sucked because Cell is like a cicada, but unlike a cicada he didn't have antennae. Wow, so uncreative on Toriyama's part. I can't believe he didn't give Cell antennae. Absolutely terrible.
Lord Beerus wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:26 am
Moro is basically an amalgamation of the major antagonistic elements of Dragon Ball Z movie 6. He has Turles stock, generic doomsday villain personality and the mystical capabilities of the Tree Of Might.
Draining a planet being similar to the Tree of Might? Okay, that makes sense.

The rest doesn't. Tullece isn't even a character, and as the caricature that he is, it's based entirely on "What if Goku... but bad?!!?!?!!?!" He is not like Moro in the slightest, unless you go vague like "they're both villains and they both have 4 limbs".
The Creatives who inspire me: Akira Toriyama, George Lucas, Chris Nolan, J. R. R. Tolkien and Zack Snyder


http://i.imgur.com/XAnj7Yi.jpg

You saw Batman v Superman? Is it the Ultimate Edition? No? Then you haven't seen Batman v Superman. Batman is out there busting his ass to avenge Goku and you won't even go see him do it?!

Dbzfan94
I Live Here
Posts: 4818
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:16 pm
Location: Mt. Paozu

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Dbzfan94 » Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:47 am

Lord Beerus wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:26 am
wolflonnie wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 5:04 am
I don't think Moro is that unique a character either but he isn't even a carbon copy of the characters he is similiar to, which is important.
I think he's distinct enough, although not remotely as compelling as the likes of Zamasu.
Moro is basically an amalgamation of the major antagonistic elements of Dragon Ball Z movie 6. He has Turles stock, generic doomsday villain personality and the mystical capabilities of the Tree Of Might.
Don't you mean Movie 3? 6 was Meta Cooler

User avatar
TKA
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 768
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:26 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:15 pm

Dbzfan94 wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:47 am
Don't you mean Movie 3? 6 was Meta Cooler
There's 3 Dragonball movies before the first Dragonball Z movie.
The Creatives who inspire me: Akira Toriyama, George Lucas, Chris Nolan, J. R. R. Tolkien and Zack Snyder


http://i.imgur.com/XAnj7Yi.jpg

You saw Batman v Superman? Is it the Ultimate Edition? No? Then you haven't seen Batman v Superman. Batman is out there busting his ass to avenge Goku and you won't even go see him do it?!

User avatar
Regarder
Regular
Posts: 528
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:04 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Regarder » Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:48 pm

I think it says something when the sign of a bad Dragonball villain is when they act just like a Dragonball villain. It says that the series has been around for such a long time that the older fans want it to reinvent itself to be fresh, rather than just safely play out the same script for a whole new generation of fans.

I was giving Moro a chance, but I also became disappointed when I found out his extra wish was so lame, and his reason for doing anything at all is just generic evil. I suppose the problem is that when DB tries "complexity" (which it's not; it's literally just a villain having any motivation at all beyond being evil or generically hateful), it usually meanders back into safe territory without actually exploring any of that complexity. Zamasu is probably DB's best attempt at a "complex" villain with a real ideology, but by the end, he just comes across as generically evil right down to the sadism and smirking at how mean he's being all the other villains have had.

At first that seems disappointing, but if the show actually explored the motivations of characters more, then that would also affect the heroes, and it's not clear whether Goku and Vegeta are suited for that kind of story. If you start altering parts of the basic formula, you have to start altering other parts to fit, until you end up with something that isn't Dragonball anymore, and you might as well watch a different show. I understand there's a line here where you can have villains with different motivations and so on, but the line was probably Zamasu, and they really couldn't live up to the intention behind the character because the formula still had to bend Dragonball in order to accommodate fights and powerups, and a sense that there was a clear cut enemy who had to be stopped with such things.

I've ultimately come to the conclusion that most jaded fans are expecting more epic or deep stuff that doesn't jibe with the irreverent and trivial style of the series, and we should just let Dragonball be Dragonball, and Moro is very Dragonball.

Sure he could have had more interesting magic, but besides surface level aesthetic stuff, if you go with complicated illusions then you have to start addressing the psychology of the characters beyond basic stuff like Vegeta feeling regret for the Nameks. If illusions are beatable for DB characters then they'd have to be overcome by emotions just like Babidi's magic, unless you want Goku and Vegeta to learn magic themselves and start casting counter-spells, but then again; totally different show at that point. Otherwise, it's going to be like a Batman villain that tries to affect their psyche and delve into their fears, but showing Goku's fears (in a serious non-comedic way; I remember the filler eps about needles) means defining his character in a way it hasn't been before. Goku's a difficult character to add depth to because beyond his innocent cheery attitude and desire to fight, he's largely a blank slate for audiences to project onto, and if you start to try and define him this late in the game, you have to worry about alienating the audience. Defining Goku too sharply would at the same time break him, and ultimately if you want a villain to present a problem Goku and Vegeta can't just punch their way out of, then that's what you'd have to do.

It's a difficult Catch 22 for any of the authors who will continue Dragonball from now on, and I don't think the difficulty is appreciated by old time fans.

User avatar
Noitsnothim
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 263
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:27 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Noitsnothim » Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:19 pm

Moro's a horrible villain and Toyo failed to make his abilities interesting all I see just him creating his own variations of Goku's Spirit Bomb which if Goku were to pull that attack out in the manga it'd lose its impact due to Moro's ability to do the same

Dbzfan94
I Live Here
Posts: 4818
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:16 pm
Location: Mt. Paozu

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Dbzfan94 » Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:08 pm

TKA wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:15 pm
Dbzfan94 wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:47 am
Don't you mean Movie 3? 6 was Meta Cooler
There's 3 Dragonball movies before the first Dragonball Z movie.
I’m fully aware of that thank you very much but not sure what that has to do with what I said. It was clear I was talking about the Z movies.

User avatar
Lord Beerus
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20496
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:20 pm
Location: A temple on a giant tree
Contact:

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:19 pm

Dbzfan94 wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:47 am
Lord Beerus wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:26 am
wolflonnie wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 5:04 am
I don't think Moro is that unique a character either but he isn't even a carbon copy of the characters he is similiar to, which is important.
I think he's distinct enough, although not remotely as compelling as the likes of Zamasu.
Moro is basically an amalgamation of the major antagonistic elements of Dragon Ball Z movie 6. He has Turles stock, generic doomsday villain personality and the mystical capabilities of the Tree Of Might.
Don't you mean Movie 3? 6 was Meta Cooler
Yeah. Sorry. Got the numbers mixed up. This was the 6th Dragon Ball movie in general, but the 3rd under the "Z" branding. I meant to say Dragon Ball Z Movie 3. That's a fuck up on my end.

Post Reply