"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Miracles
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:50 pm

Tai Lung wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:04 pm
Miracles wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:16 pm
Tai Lung wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:30 pm


which obviously is not the only thing necessary ...

because now another is the main premise that is much more appropriate to anime ..

and that contradicts the manga in the scene where goku uses it on his own ...

I think I recognize a retcon when I see it ...
"In the face of shock" is the same as the TOP's "life and death situation". Nothings changed to get UI.
in the first scene it can probably coincide with that logic ... but in the second one it clearly transforms without any external factor

I was calm ...
I wasn't getting attacked
and jiren was was holding back in the battle vs frieza and 17
I'm sorry, Goku remaining calm when Jiren is about to put him in the stands, resulting in the erasure of U7, is an external factor.
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."~Psalm 14:1

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Tai Lung » Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:57 pm

Miracles wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:50 pm
Tai Lung wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:04 pm
Miracles wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:16 pm

"In the face of shock" is the same as the TOP's "life and death situation". Nothings changed to get UI.
in the first scene it can probably coincide with that logic ... but in the second one it clearly transforms without any external factor

I was calm ...
I wasn't getting attacked
and jiren was was holding back in the battle vs frieza and 17
I'm sorry, Goku remaining calm when Jiren is about to put him in the stands, resulting in the erasure of U7, is an external factor.
I'm sorry but the sacrifice of 17 has nothing to do with the external power of jiren and how he can supposedly recreate the situation
they never say anything about it .... it's pure headcanon

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rebel Instinct » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:33 pm

emperior wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:44 am
It’s funny how this chapter’s dialogue about how Goku achieved Ultra Instinct fits better with the anime than the manga.
So much for the “Ultra Instinct is the culmination of every teaching Goku received” thing the manga had going on.
ekrolo2 wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:15 pm
Toyo retconing manga UI with anime UI is smart. If you can't beat it steal it.
Tai Lung wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:08 pm

In that scene he already has the UI, only that he managed to tame it

in this scene .. he did it on his own
{Scanlation removed by Moderator.}

What is the main problem here?

1.- that the "new premise" just explained now ... but in the tournament neither whis nor roshi explained anything about it at the time.
2 .- What we saw in the tournament was clearly different with the scene already mentioned.

that ...
Okay, this is the kind of thing that made me stop posting in this forum in the first place. And no, the irony is not lost on me that I'm here addressing the very thing that made me quit in the first place, but I cannot let this stand. I won't just sit idly by and watch yet another misconception about the manga take root and propagate out of control. I just can't.

Nothing about the method for activating Ultra Instinct has been retconned.

Everything Merus and Goku have said in the last two chapters has done nothing but reinforce what happened during the Tournament of Power, not contradict it.

At this point, I'm all but certain that half the people who harp on the manga for supposed "plot holes", "retcons", "inconsistencies" and the like never actually go back to fact check their information before commenting. If they did, this sort of thing would rarely come up in discussion. If you would, please go back and re-read chapters 39 and 40. And I do mean re-read, not just glance at the pictures and skim through the text.

If you care to notice, Goku was pushed to his absolute limits by the end of chapter 39. By the time Roshi interjects in the fight with Jiren, Goku has already hit a wall. Goku has thrown everything and the kitchen sink at Jiren in an attempt to defeat him and nothing worked. In panicked desperation, Goku even resorts to overclocking his body to the breaking point in order to squeeze out any amount of strength he can - anything at all that might help stop Jiren. Goku is at the end of his rope by the time Roshi comes in. It's only through Roshi's sage advice that Goku is able to calm down and think clearly again. After that, Goku receives a jarring shock to his emotions by seeing his old master eliminated right in front of him. Look at Goku's reactions and body language on pages 35 through 38 of chapter 39. Goku is at his limit, Roshi's elimination rattles him and Jiren is pummeling him into the ground, but instead of getting angry or flying off the handle, Goku takes Roshi's advice and falls back on all of his years of training and experience. This act of relaxing in the face of this intense pressure and mix of emotions is what allows Goku to slip into Ultra Instinct for the first time - perfectly in-line with Merus and Goku's words in chapters 52 and 53.

Goku later activates Ultra Instinct again at the end of chapter 40 and apparently some among you see this as a contradiction to what was said in the previous two chapters? I can assure you, it is not.

After Ultra Instinct fades and Jiren clobbers him, Goku is literally a crumpled heap on the floor on the last page of chapter 39. Read carefully through the entirety of chapter 40. Goku spends most of the chapter on the floor. At no point does Goku get to heal, recover or restore his energy in any way. He only gets up when Vegeta is about to be eliminated and Jiren is distracted, and even then it's only to use Instant Transmission to rescue Vegeta and hide. Goku is still at the end of his rope from the previous chapter - beaten, exhausted, out of power. The circumstances haven't changed. Toyotaro even draws direct visual parallels with the end of chapter 39 and the beginning of chapter 40 on page 43 of the latest chapter. Look at the poses, expressions and the battle damage on Goku's gi. It's exactly the same as when Jiren punched Goku out at the end of chapter 39. The circumstances are nearly identical. Without Ultra Instinct, Goku is done for. It's at this point Goku receives another jarring shock to his emotions. Android 17 appears to self destruct in order to try and stop Jiren. Not only is 17's apparent act of suicide tragic and shocking, it doesn't even so much as scratch Jiren. 17's most humanizing and selfless act accomplished nothing. He "died" for nothing.

At this point what does Goku do? He composes himself. On page 44 (ironically the very page Tai Lung so avidly posts to support his point) Goku says, "That #17... He turned out to be a good guy in the end, which makes this even harsher...I hate that it happened... but getting mad about it won't solve anything." Notice that "getting mad" is even bolded for emphasis. It should also be noted that Herms also corrected a poorly translated line from the manga on the next page that further clarifies the intent of the scene: https://twitter.com/herms98/status/1044373619952955392 The dialogue is hammering home the idea that Goku is choosing to remain calm in the face of the tragedy he just witnessed and upon doing so, he slips into Ultra Instinct - once again, perfectly encapsulating Merus's description of how to achieve Ultra Instinct.

This especially is the part that chaps my ass about Tai Lung linking page 44 as evidence of the supposed "retcon". You're literally posting a page from the manga that 100% supports Merus and Goku's explanations of the conditions needed to activate Ultra Instinct in an attempt to refute those same explanations. Did you read the previous pages to understand the context of that event? Did you even bother reading the text on the page you keep linking? It literally has Goku staying calm in the face of 17's suicide. Like, I can't even grapple with the kind of non-logic going on here. I'm almost at a loss...

And emperior, nothing about Ultra Instinct being the culmination of all of Goku's past teachings is contradicted by the recent descriptions of how to activate Ultra Instinct. It is still very much the culmination of everything Goku has learned over the years. The "instinct" part of Ultra Instinct is predicated on the sheer amount of martial skill and experience Goku has achieved. Without it, his body wouldn't know what to do on instinct. All of his training is what allows his body to even react the way it does, it's absolutely instrumental.

Even setting that aside, Roshi reminding Goku of his past training isn't even the actual catalyst for activating Ultra Instinct anyway. Reminding Goku was Roshi's way getting Goku to relax and stop letting Jiren's implacable power mess with his head - Roshi even says as much on page 28 of chapter 39, "Until you learn to not get all caught up in the enemy's power, you'll always be as green as the day we met.". Jiren's power had Goku panicking and not thinking clearly. That's why he uncharacteristically resorted to overtaxing his body to squeeze out more power. The whole point of that scene was to illustrate that Goku was playing tilted and not acting like his usual self. Roshi just snapped Goku back to reality and calmed his nerves by reminding him of what he's learned.

Hopefully (doubtfully), this has cleared up any confusion surrounding the depiction of Ultra Instinct in the Tournament of Power relative to the latest chapters. There's practically no room for doubt here, it's all directly spelled out on the relevant pages. If anyone wants to fight about this, I'll personally be having none of it. I've said my piece on the matter and sourced my information with page and chapter numbers for anyone to find. Make of it what you will, I'm not here to fight about it. I just couldn't stand by and let this one go.

---

For those who may care or liked reading my posts in the past, this doesn't mean I'm back. I still frequently lurk these forums, but don't really have the patience to engage anymore. Too much anger, too much condescension, too many stubbornly made up minds. I just had to get this off my chest after seeing this notion of a "retcon" to Ultra Instinct gaining traction lately. Enough misinformation about the manga has been ingrained in the fandom consciousness as it is. I wanted to try and nip this one in the bud before it took off, but I genuinely don't expect it to take.

For anyone who actually used to value my thoughts back in the day, I will say that I've been greatly enjoying this arc so far. It's good shit. Y'all can get back to fighting over this as much as you want now. Peace out. :wave:
Last edited by Rebel Instinct on Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The post-Super fandom has ruined my love for Dragon Ball.
LightBing wrote:Most of what's going on here isn't speculation, it's judgment's and conclusions. It's the reason why the manga thread is closed, it's the reason why VegettoEX warned people not to do what they are doing a few pages ago.

It's people riveting on their chance to feel validated in their opinion; to attack the "manga fans" whatever that means to prove themselves. My assumption is that everyone here is a Dragon Ball fan, capable of having discussions as equals and not segregate ourselves in little sectors trying to be the "superior faction" ignoring arguments, politeness and even common sense(like having all the information at hand).

Clearly I am mistaken.

I wish we were having fun making up theories or cracking up jokes.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:41 pm

Rebel Instinct wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:33 pm
^^^
:clap:
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Tai Lung » Fri Oct 25, 2019 11:04 pm

Rebel Instinct wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:33 pm
Nothing about the method for activating Ultra Instinct has been retconned.

Everything Merus and Goku have said in the last two chapters has done nothing but reinforce what happened during the Tournament of Power, not contradict it.

At this point, I'm all but certain that half the people who harp on the manga for supposed "plot holes", "retcons", "inconsistencies" and the like never actually go back to fact check their information before commenting. If they did, this sort of thing would rarely come up in discussion. If you would, please go back and re-read chapters 39 and 40. And I do mean re-read, not just glance at the pictures and skim through the text.

If you care to notice, Goku was pushed to his absolute limits by the end of chapter 39. By the time Roshi interjects in the fight with Jiren, Goku has already hit a wall. Goku has thrown everything and the kitchen sink at Jiren in an attempt to defeat him and nothing worked. In panicked desperation, Goku even resorts to overclocking his body to the breaking point in order to squeeze out any amount of strength he can - anything at all that might help stop Jiren. Goku is at the end of his rope by the time Roshi comes in. It's only through Roshi's sage advice that Goku is able to calm down and think clearly again. After that, Goku receives a jarring shock to his emotions by seeing his old master eliminated right in front of him. Look at Goku's reactions and body language on pages 35 through 38 of chapter 39.Goku is at his limit, Roshi's elimination rattles him and Jiren is pummeling him into the ground, but instead of getting angry or flying off the handle, Goku takes Roshi's advice and falls back on all of his years of training and experience. This act of relaxing in the face of this intense pressure and mix of emotions is what allows Goku to slip into Ultra Instinct for the first time - perfectly in-line with Merus's words in chapter 52.

Goku later activates Ultra Instinct again at the end of chapter 40 and apparently some among you see this as a contradiction to what was said in the previous two chapters? I can assure you, it is not.

After Ultra Instinct fades and Jiren clobbers him, Goku is literally a crumpled heap on the floor on the last page of chapter 39. Read carefully through the entirety of chapter 40. Goku spends most of the chapter on the floor. At no point does Goku get to heal, recover or restore his energy in any way. He only gets up when Vegeta is about to be eliminated and Jiren is distracted, and even then it's only to use Instant Transmission to rescue Vegeta and hide.Goku is still at the end of his rope from the previous chapter - beaten, exhausted, out of power. The circumstances haven't changed. Without Ultra Instinct Goku is done for. It's at this point Goku receives another jarring shock to his emotions. Android 17 appears to self destruct in order to try and stop Jiren. Not only is 17's apparent act of suicide tragic and shocking, it doesn't even so much as scratch Jiren. 17's most humanizing and selfless act accomplished nothing. He "died" for nothing.

At this point what does Goku do? He composes himself. On page 44 (ironically the very page Tai Lung so avidly posts to support his point) Goku says, "That #17... He turned out to be a good guy in the end, which makes this even harsher...I hate that it happened... but getting mad about it won't solve anything." Notice that "getting mad" is even bolded for emphasis. It should also be noted that Herms also corrected a poorly translated line from the manga on the next page that further clarifies the intent of the scene: https://twitter.com/herms98/status/1044373619952955392 The dialogue is hammering home the idea that Goku is choosing to remain calm in the face of the tragedy he just witnessed and upon doing so, he slips into Ultra Instinct - once again, perfectly encapsulating Merus's description of how to achieve Ultra Instinct.

This especially is the part that chaps my ass about Tai Lung linking page 44 as evidence of the supposed "retcon". You're literally posting a page from the manga that 100% supports Merus and Goku's explanations of the conditions needed to activate Ultra Instinct in an attempt to refute those same explanations. Did you read the previous pages to understand the context of that event? Did you even bother reading the text on the page you keep linking? It literally has Goku staying calm in the face of 17's suicide. Like, I can't even grapple with the kind of non-logic going on here. I'm almost at a loss...
I see that you have bothered to answer me and elaborate your comment with enough work so I will answer you in a simple and clear way.

and it is not necessary to reread those parts believe me I find it difficult to forget that horrible tournament ... I know very well that goku was tired when he use the UI but he managed to use it keeping calm ok.
That goku is free of the distractions that surround him, is fine ....
It is something that has been explained in both versions but the second time he got it on his own using that old premise, I don't deny that.

although that would not mean that goku should be able to use the UI whenever he wants if he already knows the trick? apparently .... no

but now, NOW! there is a new clause that was never said in the tournament before, reread it is not
Image
Again this fits with what was seen before?
at the beginning maybe ...

like the anime
1.- goku should be tired
2.- must be free from distractions (to keep it)
3- an outside force (the opponent) has to have enough power to exert pressure on goku to break his limits

however, although this coincides the first time ... the second does not work ... because jiren is not doing anything ... and goku is not fighting ... he was literally static, it no matter how tired he is, this does not coincides with the new "premise" that again nobody explained before

:clap: anyway good answer make sure you make it longer next time :thumbup:

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Fri Oct 25, 2019 11:25 pm

Tai Lung wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:08 pm
In that scene he already has the UI, only that he managed to tame it
in this scene .. he did it on his own
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/9dIcI ... _6vQ=w2400
What is the main problem here?
1.- that the "new premise" just explained now ... but in the tournament neither whis nor roshi explained anything about it at the time.
2 .- What we saw in the tournament was clearly different with the scene already mentioned.
that ...
The "omen" version of MnG he had was only enough to dodge and avoid hits to his vitals (Whis said this). He couldn't keep that up forever, and he wasn't landing any hits. Whis commented that he was getting deeper into MnG, and that final risk is what it took to make it happen. If Goku couldn't at least wear away at Jiren, Universe 7 loses, and everyone dies.

In this arc, Merus has said "It will activate when you achieve self-control in the face of a jarring shock to your emotions" (check) and "I expect you were in an extreme crisis when it first activated?" (also check).

From the beginning of the ToP, Goku knows and says that the only chance they have of beating Jiren is if he can reach the next level. The first time he activates the ability, he reflects on the words of his masters. "Be as tranquil as the heavens". He observes Kame-sen'nin rushing into danger and remaining calm. He realizes getting angry and forcing power doesn't work.

The second time, it's more of the same. Just look at the image you posted. "I hate that it happened...but getting mad about it won't solve anything." Goku was mad that No. 17 sacrificed his life to take Jiren down, but he didn't let those emotions consume him. When Goku achieves the completed version of MnG, he specifically states that his heart is "as calm as the streams around Mount Paozu". So this fits perfectly with what Merus was saying. And again, everyone's lives are indisputably on the line.

So what exactly are you saying isn't matching up here? Do you think that Universe 7 would have won without Goku achieving MnG at that point in the tournament? Do you not agree that Goku was remaining calm despite a shock to his emotions?

I'm not sure why you doubt that Toyotaro understanding what he's writing. He works with Toriyama. He knows more about this than you or I do. He plans ahead and foreshadows. I don't see how you think the anime comes closer to matching up with what Merus has said about MnG in this arc.
Rebel Instinct wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:33 pm
snip
Hey, good to hear from you again. I understand how you're feeling, so maybe I should share my experience.

I've also taken a step back from posting here. Since Super came out, the forums have felt more like a battleground than a place to talk about common interests. When I first joined this forum in 2010, it seems like the values of the fans were much different. Kanzenshuu (well, DaizenshuuEX at the time) was a place for DB purists; a place where people valued the Japanese version, the manga, and the word of Akira Toriyama above all. Nowadays, people don't seem to care as much about those sort of things. That's fine, but what people find preferable about the anime isn't what drew me to this website in the first place, and it's definitely not what keeps me coming back to Dragon Ball.

Fighting people constantly was affecting me outside of the website. It'd piss me off all day at work. Not only was I upset, but I was being an asshole. Why am I a jerk online but not a jerk in real life? I've made a conscious effort to not take things so seriously (and personally), pick my battles, and accept the fact that the demographic here has changed. And that's okay. Nowadays, I prefer to just state my opinion and then retreat for a month. I've been much happier. Surprisingly, I've actually found the /dbz/ subreddit a more positive place to lurk, even if in-depth discussions aren't as common.

I hope this helps. I've said it here before, but we're here to have fun talking about the thing we all love. If you're not having fun, make a change! I'm glad taking a break has helped.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sat Oct 26, 2019 8:16 am

There has been no retcon(probably).
But the new chapter shows Toyotaro FAILED to adequately portrait the situation in the manga.

When he awoke UI for the second time, Goku was doing nothing at all for 1-2 chapters, while everybody else was fighting.
He wasn't shown feeling pressure of the situation, which fits the theme of "Ultra Instinct awakening by keeping calm in front of emotional turmoil" but does not fits the theme of "Ultra Instinct awakening while under great pressure".

While "emotional turmoil" and "great pressure" can overlap, they aren't shown overlapping in the manga.

It doesn't help the anime did a much better show of UI coming from great pressure, as it was activated when Goku got his own Genkidama exploding in his face, while fighting a Fusion while on low power and fighting a relatively serious Jiren(in the anime a unfathomable monster of might) while on borrowed fumes of energy.

The one time in the manga Goku seems under real pressure is when he was using his pseudo-kaiohken, but that tension gets broken by Muten

So, yeah.
Either:
Toyotaro did a really bad work in the ToP
or there HAS been a retcon, maybe because the anime portrayal of UI was much more popular,.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Sora Saiyan » Sat Oct 26, 2019 9:29 am

Rebel Instinct wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:33 pm
[Snip]
Dude. I miss your posts.
Great sum up of the ToP in regards to UI. One thing I've seemed to notice is people refuse to include that the very nature of the ToP is a life and death situation. Goku just being beaten to an absolute pulp by Merus won't change anything, he genuinely needs to be aware on some level that he is in a life or death situation, and like you've pointed out, when all of his options failed in the ToP he's was at the end of his rope. If things carried on the way they were it was the end for him and his entire universe. He found calm in that chaos with help from Roshi.

Personally I find achieving UI to basically be all mental for Goku. It's just that Goku usually has to be physically beaten and try everything to truly hit that mental sweet spot for the activation of UI, but somebody else could probably get into that headspace without being pushed anywhere near the level Goku was physically; he's a tenacious son of a gun. Then comes finding calm in the realisation on some level that everybody he cares for will die if he can't defeat Jiren. This is then promptly hammered home with Roshi falling, and then something that fully embodies what's at stake with 17s "death". The physical side of UI IMO is the constant martial lessons and honing your body. Goku eats and breathes that stuff, so he was already there physically.

That's my thoughts on how UI works in the manga, and why it's not contradicted with these new bits of information.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sat Oct 26, 2019 9:54 am

Sora Saiyan wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 9:29 am
One thing I've seemed to notice is people refuse to include that the very nature of the ToP is a life and death situation.
Because in the manga the ToP doesn't feels like it's a win-or-die deal, IMHO.

yeah, intellectually the readers know it, but there is no pathos most of the time.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Yasai9001 » Sat Oct 26, 2019 12:16 pm

Rebel Instinct wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:33 pm
emperior wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:44 am
It’s funny how this chapter’s dialogue about how Goku achieved Ultra Instinct fits better with the anime than the manga.
So much for the “Ultra Instinct is the culmination of every teaching Goku received” thing the manga had going on.
ekrolo2 wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:15 pm
Toyo retconing manga UI with anime UI is smart. If you can't beat it steal it.
Tai Lung wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:08 pm

In that scene he already has the UI, only that he managed to tame it

in this scene .. he did it on his own
{Scanlation removed by Moderator.}

What is the main problem here?

1.- that the "new premise" just explained now ... but in the tournament neither whis nor roshi explained anything about it at the time.
2 .- What we saw in the tournament was clearly different with the scene already mentioned.

that ...
Okay, this is the kind of thing that made me stop posting in this forum in the first place. And no, the irony is not lost on me that I'm here addressing the very thing that made me quit in the first place, but I cannot let this stand. I won't just sit idly by and watch yet another misconception about the manga take root and propagate out of control. I just can't.

Nothing about the method for activating Ultra Instinct has been retconned.

Everything Merus and Goku have said in the last two chapters has done nothing but reinforce what happened during the Tournament of Power, not contradict it.

At this point, I'm all but certain that half the people who harp on the manga for supposed "plot holes", "retcons", "inconsistencies" and the like never actually go back to fact check their information before commenting. If they did, this sort of thing would rarely come up in discussion. If you would, please go back and re-read chapters 39 and 40. And I do mean re-read, not just glance at the pictures and skim through the text.

If you care to notice, Goku was pushed to his absolute limits by the end of chapter 39. By the time Roshi interjects in the fight with Jiren, Goku has already hit a wall. Goku has thrown everything and the kitchen sink at Jiren in an attempt to defeat him and nothing worked. In panicked desperation, Goku even resorts to overclocking his body to the breaking point in order to squeeze out any amount of strength he can - anything at all that might help stop Jiren. Goku is at the end of his rope by the time Roshi comes in. It's only through Roshi's sage advice that Goku is able to calm down and think clearly again. After that, Goku receives a jarring shock to his emotions by seeing his old master eliminated right in front of him. Look at Goku's reactions and body language on pages 35 through 38 of chapter 39. Goku is at his limit, Roshi's elimination rattles him and Jiren is pummeling him into the ground, but instead of getting angry or flying off the handle, Goku takes Roshi's advice and falls back on all of his years of training and experience. This act of relaxing in the face of this intense pressure and mix of emotions is what allows Goku to slip into Ultra Instinct for the first time - perfectly in-line with Merus and Goku's words in chapters 52 and 53.

Goku later activates Ultra Instinct again at the end of chapter 40 and apparently some among you see this as a contradiction to what was said in the previous two chapters? I can assure you, it is not.

After Ultra Instinct fades and Jiren clobbers him, Goku is literally a crumpled heap on the floor on the last page of chapter 39. Read carefully through the entirety of chapter 40. Goku spends most of the chapter on the floor. At no point does Goku get to heal, recover or restore his energy in any way. He only gets up when Vegeta is about to be eliminated and Jiren is distracted, and even then it's only to use Instant Transmission to rescue Vegeta and hide. Goku is still at the end of his rope from the previous chapter - beaten, exhausted, out of power. The circumstances haven't changed. Toyotaro even draws direct visual parallels with the end of chapter 39 and the beginning of chapter 40 on page 43 of the latest chapter. Look at the poses, expressions and the battle damage on Goku's gi. It's exactly the same as when Jiren punched Goku out at the end of chapter 39. The circumstances are nearly identical. Without Ultra Instinct, Goku is done for. It's at this point Goku receives another jarring shock to his emotions. Android 17 appears to self destruct in order to try and stop Jiren. Not only is 17's apparent act of suicide tragic and shocking, it doesn't even so much as scratch Jiren. 17's most humanizing and selfless act accomplished nothing. He "died" for nothing.

At this point what does Goku do? He composes himself. On page 44 (ironically the very page Tai Lung so avidly posts to support his point) Goku says, "That #17... He turned out to be a good guy in the end, which makes this even harsher...I hate that it happened... but getting mad about it won't solve anything." Notice that "getting mad" is even bolded for emphasis. It should also be noted that Herms also corrected a poorly translated line from the manga on the next page that further clarifies the intent of the scene: https://twitter.com/herms98/status/1044373619952955392 The dialogue is hammering home the idea that Goku is choosing to remain calm in the face of the tragedy he just witnessed and upon doing so, he slips into Ultra Instinct - once again, perfectly encapsulating Merus's description of how to achieve Ultra Instinct.

This especially is the part that chaps my ass about Tai Lung linking page 44 as evidence of the supposed "retcon". You're literally posting a page from the manga that 100% supports Merus and Goku's explanations of the conditions needed to activate Ultra Instinct in an attempt to refute those same explanations. Did you read the previous pages to understand the context of that event? Did you even bother reading the text on the page you keep linking? It literally has Goku staying calm in the face of 17's suicide. Like, I can't even grapple with the kind of non-logic going on here. I'm almost at a loss...

And emperior, nothing about Ultra Instinct being the culmination of all of Goku's past teachings is contradicted by the recent descriptions of how to activate Ultra Instinct. It is still very much the culmination of everything Goku has learned over the years. The "instinct" part of Ultra Instinct is predicated on the sheer amount of martial skill and experience Goku has achieved. Without it, his body wouldn't know what to do on instinct. All of his training is what allows his body to even react the way it does, it's absolutely instrumental.

Even setting that aside, Roshi reminding Goku of his past training isn't even the actual catalyst for activating Ultra Instinct anyway. Reminding Goku was Roshi's way getting Goku to relax and stop letting Jiren's implacable power mess with his head - Roshi even says as much on page 28 of chapter 39, "Until you learn to not get all caught up in the enemy's power, you'll always be as green as the day we met.". Jiren's power had Goku panicking and not thinking clearly. That's why he uncharacteristically resorted to overtaxing his body to squeeze out more power. The whole point of that scene was to illustrate that Goku was playing tilted and not acting like his usual self. Roshi just snapped Goku back to reality and calmed his nerves by reminding him of what he's learned.

Hopefully (doubtfully), this has cleared up any confusion surrounding the depiction of Ultra Instinct in the Tournament of Power relative to the latest chapters. There's practically no room for doubt here, it's all directly spelled out on the relevant pages. If anyone wants to fight about this, I'll personally be having none of it. I've said my piece on the matter and sourced my information with page and chapter numbers for anyone to find. Make of it what you will, I'm not here to fight about it. I just couldn't stand by and let this one go.

---

For those who may care or liked reading my posts in the past, this doesn't mean I'm back. I still frequently lurk these forums, but don't really have the patience to engage anymore. Too much anger, too much condescension, too many stubbornly made up minds. I just had to get this off my chest after seeing this notion of a "retcon" to Ultra Instinct gaining traction lately. Enough misinformation about the manga has been ingrained in the fandom consciousness as it is. I wanted to try and nip this one in the bud before it took off, but I genuinely don't expect it to take.

For anyone who actually used to value my thoughts back in the day, I will say that I've been greatly enjoying this arc so far. It's good shit. Y'all can get back to fighting over this as much as you want now. Peace out. :wave:
If there was anyway to save your post and place it on a wall in every Dragon Ball fans' room, I would.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Sat Oct 26, 2019 12:27 pm

Michsi wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:18 am

So your answer to his predicament was to just let Jaco fall to his death? That's what you believe Piccolo's characterization should be like? Had it been Bulma that was falling, would you still think the same thing about his action? I;m sure he would've gone right back up there had 73 not gone after them the second he flew after Jaco.

Again, it feels like this is taking the most unfavorable interpretation of that chapter with gusto.
You were right about the teleportation ability. I didn't notice that on my first read and it wasn't explained that it was instant so I figured if he used something like that, it would have been noticeable. But, yeah, he should've let Jaco die. No Dende, no Dragon Balls, which means you can't wish anyone back. Jaco dies, no problem, wish him back. Of course, Jaco wouldn't have died. Anyone strong enough to defeat a Frieza soldier, will likely find a way to survive that fall and we know he has boosters. As a former guardian of Earth himself (Kami), you'd think he would know to protect Dende. Also, you'd think his own connection with Dende would spur him to protect him at all costs rather than Jaco who he barely knows.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Michsi » Sat Oct 26, 2019 1:13 pm

BWri wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 12:27 pm
Michsi wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:18 am

So your answer to his predicament was to just let Jaco fall to his death? That's what you believe Piccolo's characterization should be like? Had it been Bulma that was falling, would you still think the same thing about his action? I;m sure he would've gone right back up there had 73 not gone after them the second he flew after Jaco.

Again, it feels like this is taking the most unfavorable interpretation of that chapter with gusto.
You were right about the teleportation ability. I didn't notice that on my first read and it wasn't explained that it was instant so I figured if he used something like that, it would have been noticeable. But, yeah, he should've let Jaco die. No Dende, no Dragon Balls, which means you can't wish anyone back. Jaco dies, no problem, wish him back. Of course, Jaco wouldn't have died. Anyone strong enough to defeat a Frieza soldier, will likely find a way to survive that fall and we know he has boosters. As a former guardian of Earth himself (Kami), you'd think he would know to protect Dende. Also, you'd think his own connection with Dende would spur him to protect him at all costs rather than Jaco who he barely knows.

I disagree with this interpretation- what you are describing makes sense on paper, but he's not an unfeeling character that is capable of these hardhearted decision on the spot. He acted on impulse, jumping after someone that was in trouble. In the Boo saga, Piccolo acted exactly how you've described- telling Boo to finish his task of killing all humans in order to win more time for the boys- and it blew up in his face. Had he stayed and started fighting, Dende might've been caught in the cross fire.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sat Oct 26, 2019 3:06 pm

Tai Lung wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:57 pm
Miracles wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:50 pm
Tai Lung wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:04 pm


in the first scene it can probably coincide with that logic ... but in the second one it clearly transforms without any external factor

I was calm ...
I wasn't getting attacked
and jiren was was holding back in the battle vs frieza and 17
I'm sorry, Goku remaining calm when Jiren is about to put him in the stands, resulting in the erasure of U7, is an external factor.
I'm sorry but the sacrifice of 17 has nothing to do with the external power of jiren and how he can supposedly recreate the situation
they never say anything about it .... it's pure headcanon
No, Goku clearly stated that he was in a "life and death situation" when he activated UI last time. That means in the TOP against Jiren. Merus said they need to recreate that situation, hence why Goku told Merus to come at him to kill. Merus can't sacrifice himself like 17. So Goku and Merus is talking about recreating the external factor for the stage of UI by going at Goku like Jiren did. Your way out of bounds here.

Are you reading the story?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by YamiGoku » Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:01 pm

It may not be a retcon, but the fact that this discussion is taking place speaks volumes of how bad the representation of "life or death situation" is in the manga

the fact that he is just standing calmly talking before he transforms does not make it look like a great representation of a "life or death situation", It looks a lot more like a "resolution" moment if you ask me.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:10 pm

Goku transformed BEFORE the 17 sacrifice too. THAT was the moment he activated UI in a life and death situation. When Jiren was about to finish him.

The reason why this is being discussed is because people lack context when reading.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Sat Oct 26, 2019 6:32 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:55 am
Miracles wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:21 pm
ekrolo2 wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:15 pm
Toyo retconing manga UI with anime UI is smart. If you can't beat it steal it.
It's not a retcon. In the manga, Goku was about to be finished by Jiren, UI activated by calming himself in that moment of life and death.
Still a retcon.
I really don't think a majority of you guys know how to read/watch/embrace stories. You take everything hyper-literally, you jump the gun on everything being set up, you ignore allusions: just take a step back and remember that this is a story first and everything else you want from this (power level charts, the EPIC MOMENTZZZ, etc) come second.

In a casual conversation, as shown in this chapter, what I took from Goku and Merus talking about life or death situation was the entire tournament of power. The entire situation was stressful and the ENTIRE tournament was life or death since if you lost you'd be killed.

This isn't rocket surgery. Dragonball also isn't high art. This is a story for children and teens. If so much of it is going over your head, maybe you're thinking about it too much. In other words: it's not that deep, bro.
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Great to see you're still around! Reading your posts is always a joy for me.
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You saw Batman v Superman? Is it the Ultimate Edition? No? Then you haven't seen Batman v Superman. Batman is out there busting his ass to avenge Goku and you won't even go see him do it?!

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by dbzfan7 » Sat Oct 26, 2019 8:28 pm

I mean the TOP was bad work in itself, it's just Toyotaro's original stuff felt very rushed even when he had good ideas.

On the chapter it's a breath of fresh air honestly, and despite it probably going the tried and true direction we've seen numerous times, it's nice to give focus somewhere else just for a while.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Tai Lung » Sat Oct 26, 2019 10:41 pm

Miracles wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 3:06 pm
Tai Lung wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:57 pm
Miracles wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:50 pm

I'm sorry, Goku remaining calm when Jiren is about to put him in the stands, resulting in the erasure of U7, is an external factor.
I'm sorry but the sacrifice of 17 has nothing to do with the external power of jiren and how he can supposedly recreate the situation
they never say anything about it .... it's pure headcanon
No, Goku clearly stated that he was in a "life and death situation" when he activated UI last time. That means in the TOP against Jiren. Merus said they need to recreate that situation, hence why Goku told Merus to come at him to kill. Merus can't sacrifice himself like 17. So Goku and Merus is talking about recreating the external factor for the stage of UI by going at Goku like Jiren did. Your way out of bounds here.

Are you reading the story?
here a scene similar to the sacrifice of 17 and others
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJqYHcetXc8

still is needs an external physical force that is the trigger to achieve that

How does it change here that the situation is not the same in the second scene in the manga? ....

goku is not fighting with jiren
jiren wasn't even expelling energy
so there is no reason for it to break its limits at that time

Now it is only necessary for someone to sacrifice for goku to get the UI? because that is what everyone is telling me and that is something that literally has not been said only assumptions.
So why doesn't Goku just try to remember that moment?

is the reason I says it doesn't work the new premise with seen before
batistabus wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 11:25 pm
Tai Lung wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:08 pm
In that scene he already has the UI, only that he managed to tame it
in this scene .. he did it on his own
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/9dIcI ... _6vQ=w2400
What is the main problem here?
1.- that the "new premise" just explained now ... but in the tournament neither whis nor roshi explained anything about it at the time.
2 .- What we saw in the tournament was clearly different with the scene already mentioned.
that ...
The "omen" version of MnG he had was only enough to dodge and avoid hits to his vitals (Whis said this). He couldn't keep that up forever, and he wasn't landing any hits. Whis commented that he was getting deeper into MnG, and that final risk is what it took to make it happen. If Goku couldn't at least wear away at Jiren, Universe 7 loses, and everyone dies.

In this arc, Merus has said "It will activate when you achieve self-control in the face of a jarring shock to your emotions" (check) and "I expect you were in an extreme crisis when it first activated?" (also check).

From the beginning of the ToP, Goku knows and says that the only chance they have of beating Jiren is if he can reach the next level. The first time he activates the ability, he reflects on the words of his masters. "Be as tranquil as the heavens". He observes Kame-sen'nin rushing into danger and remaining calm. He realizes getting angry and forcing power doesn't work.

The second time, it's more of the same. Just look at the image you posted. "I hate that it happened...but getting mad about it won't solve anything." Goku was mad that No. 17 sacrificed his life to take Jiren down, but he didn't let those emotions consume him. When Goku achieves the completed version of MnG, he specifically states that his heart is "as calm as the streams around Mount Paozu". So this fits perfectly with what Merus was saying. And again, everyone's lives are indisputably on the line.

So what exactly are you saying isn't matching up here? Do you think that Universe 7 would have won without Goku achieving MnG at that point in the tournament? Do you not agree that Goku was remaining calm despite a shock to his emotions?

I'm not sure why you doubt that Toyotaro understanding what he's writing. He works with Toriyama. He knows more about this than you or I do. He plans ahead and foreshadows. I don't see how you think the anime comes closer to matching up with what Merus has said about MnG in this arc.
pass ... because I don't want to have to repeat the same thing ...

but I will only say 3 things and I hope understand me this time

1.- what merus explains on the last page ... still requires a "physical effort" from the opponent to be the necessary trigger to goku

How is this scene different from the otther? that is missing?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJqYHcetXc8

2.- What bothers me is that they invent something last minute ... because the last thing Merus said ...

It was not mentioned at the time despite the fact that whis was there and that is something that nobody could refute me ...
"An external physical force"

3.- that the author is involved does not mean that he doesn't may have errors or that there is a change of an idea

Cabba didn't know anything about the super saiyan ...
in the tournament he speaks as if he knew them ...

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:58 am

Tai Lung wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 10:41 pm
Miracles wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 3:06 pm
Tai Lung wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:57 pm


I'm sorry but the sacrifice of 17 has nothing to do with the external power of jiren and how he can supposedly recreate the situation
they never say anything about it .... it's pure headcanon
No, Goku clearly stated that he was in a "life and death situation" when he activated UI last time. That means in the TOP against Jiren. Merus said they need to recreate that situation, hence why Goku told Merus to come at him to kill. Merus can't sacrifice himself like 17. So Goku and Merus is talking about recreating the external factor for the stage of UI by going at Goku like Jiren did. Your way out of bounds here.

Are you reading the story?
here a scene similar to the sacrifice of 17 and others
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJqYHcetXc8

still is needs an external physical force that is the trigger to achieve that

How does it change here that the situation is not the same in the second scene in the manga? ....

goku is not fighting with jiren
jiren wasn't even expelling energy
so there is no reason for it to break its limits at that time

Now it is only necessary for someone to sacrifice for goku to get the UI? because that is what everyone is telling me and that is something that literally has not been said only assumptions.
So why doesn't Goku just try to remember that moment?

is the reason I says it doesn't work the new premise with seen before
The anime's UI literally did a friendship boost for Goku in that clip. That isn't what the manga used to gain UI in the TOP ever.
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."~Psalm 14:1

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:49 am

Michsi wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 1:13 pm
I disagree with this interpretation- what you are describing makes sense on paper, but he's not an unfeeling character that is capable of these hardhearted decision on the spot.

But he is. In the Cell saga, for whatever reason, probably a strategic one, he let Cell absorb that rich human. In the Buu saga, as you mention below, he allowed Buu to wipe out humanity for a strategic advantage. Also in the Buu saga, he basically sentenced himself and Gotenks to death in order to trap Buu in the Room of Spirit and Time, (I believe he thought Dende was dead at the time). Before he knew Whis was a badass who trained GoD's, he attempted to use him as a hostage to prevent Beerus from destroying Earth. He's basically shown to be the pragmatic one of the group. Of course he would make the hardhearted decisions. He's the first one that would.
He acted on impulse, jumping after someone that was in trouble.

Yes and it wasn't very smart. It was a bit out of character as well. Don't get me wrong. Piccolo has become more heroic, but he's also very pragmatic. I just don't see him leaving his squishy friends up there with dangerous alien bandits, especially when he was just told that all the other Namekians aside from Esca were wiped out, meaning Dende's life is all the more important along with Esca's.
In the Boo saga, Piccolo acted exactly how you've described- telling Boo to finish his task of killing all humans in order to win more time for the boys- and it blew up in his face.

Not really. It still bought some time, likely a few extra minutes for the boys. He instantly regretted it, but really, what else was he to do? Buu would've probably just killed everyone on the lookout anyway then eventually wipeout humanity. The hope would be that he doesn't decide to destroy the lookout, because there goes Goten and Trunks with it. I mean, he could've tried luring him away to fight somewhere else, but realistically the fight wouldn't have lasted long and Buu wouldn't be interested anyway.
Had he stayed and started fighting, Dende might've been caught in the cross fire.
It's still better than leaving him alone with murderers who've attempted to kill Jaco as well as their own allies, the Macareni gang.
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