"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:42 pm

Lionel wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:44 pm
There really isn't much of a sensible answer to that question outside of deferring to the original authorial source, i.e Toriyama. After a certain point he just seemed to hold no interest in maintaining the legitimacy of the humans. His mind may have come to the conclusion that it was easier and reputationally more practical to emphasise the Saiyans, sans Piccolo early on, rather than conceive of a way to keep the humans in the running.

What was their maximum power level at the time? We know they could consciously restrict their strength dating back to the first tournament. It's unlikely they were projecting their full strength at precisely that moment. Who's to say they didn't surpass the benchmark of the 23rd tournament or at least came close to it?
The Saiyans were also increasingly the most popular part of the franchise. Now whether that's because the human characters weren't around for a year and change during the initial run I don't know. But just looking at the box office revenue for the DBZ era movies, Saiyans were bringing in more and more money with each subsequent film. Extreme Battle! The Three Great Super Saiyans brought in almost two times as much as The World's Strongest. And Broly managed even more than that. So, I think that's as good an answer as any. Humans were phased out because Saiyans had a proven track record among fans far eclipsing the numbers TOEI were used to with their earlier DB movies.

Anyway, sorry for the tangent. I know this line of that isn't exactly an "in story" explanation for anything
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by wolflonnie » Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:18 am

Humans being used as cannon fodder by Frieza isn't good at all for them (the humans). And it shouldn't be compared to the anime. I agree that the anime had monotonous human fights, but a bad product is just a bad product. At least Toei attempted doing something with them.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:10 am

I wish Toyotarou didn't do battles like these, where the gang is rounded up in order to fight an incoming evil. It's been done various times throughout DB, it's a trope at this point, & quite a boring one at that.

I would've liked it if the fighters themselves were initially scattered across & protecting their own turf, unaware of the impeding danger until it hit them. Like maybe we see Yamcha playing baseball professionally when suddenly the Moro cronies attack, & he gets to show off that he hasn't been neglecting his training.

Or 17 protecting his own damn island w/ the Cell Jr's backing him up.

That way Goten & Trunks can at least have a reason to fight, even tho they already should (their lack of inclusion ticked me off anyhow).

A peaceful life suddenly thrown into chaos, & the Z fighters are taking control of the situation in promptu.

This was a fanservice chapter, & not a really good one at that imo. This is stuff I would expect from the Super anime, the cliched fanservicey trope shit.

And did countering 7-3 have to be executed in such a cliched manner? I liked the idea of the Androids countering ki absorption, which makes complete sense, but it felt so predictable coming from miles away.

Anyways. I'm just waiting to see how Moro takes them all down at this point.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:10 am

Rakurai wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:10 am
I wish Toyotarou didn't do battles like these, where the gang is rounded up in order to fight an incoming evil. It's been done various times throughout DB, it's a trope at this point, & quite a boring one at that.

I would've liked it if the fighters themselves were initially scattered across & protecting their own turf, unaware of the impeding danger until it hit them. Like maybe we see Yamcha playing baseball professionally when suddenly the Moro cronies attack, & he gets to show off that he hasn't been neglecting his training.

Or 17 protecting his own damn island w/ the Cell Jr's backing him up.

That way Goten & Trunks can at least have a reason to fight, even tho they already should (their lack of inclusion ticked me off anyhow).

A peaceful life suddenly thrown into chaos, & the Z fighters are taking control of the situation in promptu.

This was a fanservice chapter, & not a really good one at that imo. This is stuff I would expect from the Super anime, the cliched fanservicey trope shit.

And did countering 7-3 have to be executed in such a cliched manner? I liked the idea of the Androids countering ki absorption, which makes complete sense, but it felt so predictable coming from miles away.

Anyways. I'm just waiting to see how Moro takes them all down at this point.
But this was not a fanservice for no reason. The people in the last chapter were complaining about how it didn't make sense not to gather all the Z Fighters to face Moro (since Dende managed to find 17) and how that would just be the plot's convenience. So as it should be, Toyotaro did bring all the warriors together because that was the logic. If the Earth is being invaded, then it is natural for the most powerful to protect it.

And I think that in this case it was an invasion that makes more sense, since Moro attacked all parts of the planet to steal the riches instead of the fight concentrated in one place

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:53 am

You guys are making me be a lot harsher on this topic than I actually feel or wanted to be, but oh well...
wolflonnie wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:08 pm
Huh?
So you're saying a character that is shamed after god knows how many years of inactivity is a good thing. No, it's not.
As it wasn't good not showing Gohan fighting Kefla, Krillin being sidelined immediately, etc..
A character partecipating in a story needs to have quality screentime, otherwise it's useless and detrimental. You can't just throw a character in and expect the best.
No, I think having characters show up just to have them do something is worse writing. It slows the pace of the story to a crawl for no benefit other than to service the fans of those characters. Why do we need to see Lieutenants in Bleach fighting worthless Fracciones when 5 Captains are around who could fart on those Fracciones and kill them the Earthlings fighting mooks who we know are infinitely weaker than Moro?

The Namek arc did this much better. Nobody was as strong as Frieza, so it was established that fighting him is a no-go, and that made the fights with the grunts have more gravitas because our heroes could only fight the grunts. Here, we know this is all nonsensical preamble and that the second Goku or Vegeta show up, they can sneeze and all these grunts will explode.

This is a waste of the reader's time.

Now, back to the Tournament of Power. Toyotaro smartly avoided wasting our time with the Earthlings fighting other worthless no-name characters, and instead used them to further along the story WHILE ALSO re-emphasizing Frieza's characteristics that make him a villain. Sometimes characters exist/can be used just as a tool to further other characters, and that's FINE.

You know why this was good also? Pretending that Tenshinhan and Krillin are still useful when power scales have been this inflated is ludicrous nonsense. Instead, Toyotaro used the fact that they were so weak as a plot point. Frieza didn't hesitate in using them as bait because he deemed their power levels so paltry that losing them won't affect the team, so he could sacrifice them to take out Frost.

That's good writing.

Creating a bunch of no-name mooks so the band can get back together and use all their special signature moves you've seen in every video game or comic from the 90s until now on them?

That's not good writing.

Characters exist to serve story, not the other way around. Stories are metaphors for real life, and characters are vehicles to convey story. When stories serve characters is when you end up with meandering, fanservicey dreck devoid of merit. These characters aren't owed anything. They're tools to be used to convey a story. Giving them "moments" is pointless fan service.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by wolflonnie » Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:15 pm

TKA wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:53 am
-snip-
Ah I see. That I agree on. But I think an even better writer would've thought a way of making at least either Krillin or Tien somehow useful. I mean, Krillin was useful against the saiyans and in the Namek saga even though he was an ant in both situation.
I also think that a good story should respect its characters and give them some moments. I'm no Tien fan, I don't like the guy at all, but I think showing him being that weak and helpless was a disservice to a character who did frankly nothing for so many years.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by jplaya2023 » Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:18 pm

i think the pacing is a problem, i feel like this is being dragged out well beyond what it should be at this point. I'm also tired of the reoccurring Boo is sleeping joke. It's lame and played out. Just say he isn't going to fight although he would solo moro's crew in a few minutes honestly.

73 can't copy boo since his powers are magical

Also i hope they talked about the human and everyone went through.

tien and yamcha should've learned to fuse same with krilian and chaozu

also gohan should've learned ssj red and incorporated it into his mystik form.

Piccolo should've made a wish to get the namek book of legends and learn everything

goten and trunks should've spent 5 days in the chamber and learned ssj2, ssj3, and ssj red and actually be a force in this fight

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:52 pm

wolflonnie wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:15 pm
But I think an even better writer would've thought a way of making at least either Krillin or Tien somehow useful.
I don't think that's necessarily a better writer. That would be a writer going out of his way to have his/the fans' favorites do something. Toriyama sidelined these characters back in the Android arc. Do you realize how long ago that was? It could be argued that bringing them back to suddenly be "useful" would be going against what Toriyama did with them.

Personally, I think they were useful, since it was their eliminations that allowed Frost and a whole other universe to be eliminated without their team having to waste energy in a protracted battle.
I also think that a good story should respect its characters and give them some moments.
I also disagree here.

If the writer of a story has no need for certain characters after a point, then I'm not going to hold it against the writer if those characters are then discarded. It's a story: it focuses on one character or one set of characters. There will always be sidelined characters no matter how much time you want to waste giving everyone "moments".

Take Game of Thrones/A Song of Fire and Ice. That story does a lot of skipping around, right? Lots of characters get to do things. But that also means A LOT MORE characters just stand around doing nothing, or not doing enough. You, as the writer, cannot control which characters readers latch on to, and you're not at liberty to suddenly change the story you want to tell just because a character becomes popular.

It's an impossible problem to solve.
I'm no Tien fan, I don't like the guy at all, but I think showing him being that weak and helpless was a disservice to a character who did frankly nothing for so many years.
It was a lot more "service" than him standing around slack-jawed watching Goku fight 19. Or standing around slack-jawed while Gohan fought Cell. Or dying for nothing against Nappa. Or getting one-shot by Buu.

He got brought back by Toyotaro and his lack of power (which is probably the main trait among the earthlings at this point) directly contributed to the story. That's the best use of him; not him going around fighting and eliminating fodder mooks with no names (besides, you already got that in Resurrection F).
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:04 pm

That's good writing.
Is this some new definition of good writing? One where deliberately undermining your own themes and removing all emotional impact from the conclusion of your story is the goal?

If Toyotaro's goal was to show how ruthlessness and cunning are admirable he probably shouldn't have had Goku give the standard shonen "Did you say friendship sucks ass??!!?!" speech at the end of the arc. The narrative has just shown that friendship sucks ass and that people shouldn't be thought of as more than stepping stones to get what you want. So, thematically, Jiren should have been the one to triumph in the end.
I don't think that's necessarily a better writer. That would be a writer going out of his way to have his/the fans' favorites do something. Toriyama sidelined these characters back in the Android arc. Do you realize how long ago that was? It could be argued that bringing them back to suddenly be "useful" would be going against what Toriyama did with them.
What Toriyama did was sideline them because Broly: The Legendary SuperSaiyan made 3x as much as movies like Return My Gohan and World's Strongest. So why would it be wrong for other writers to also look at what's selling and tailor the narrative to fit it? I mean Toriyama turned Yamcha into a Cheater and Bulma into a faithful wife to accomodate the Saiyans. Clearly he wasn't too fussed about cohesion. Toyotaro isn't wrong for taking the same attitude.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by omaro34 » Wed Jan 22, 2020 3:08 pm

namekiansaiyan wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:13 am
omaro34 wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:46 pm
I had to do a double take when I saw this chapter...Yamcha fighting again?

I never cared for Chiautzo, but Yamcha getting some action was surprisingly pleasant.

I was hoping Piccolo got his own fight, frustrating that he's always linked to Gohan.

17 and 18 made a badass entrance. Buu still sleeping is getting old and annoying.

Never cared much for Goten since he's really just a bland kid that is a carbon copy of his dad at the same age, but they should really give him and Trunks some action. Whatever happened to depending on them back in the Buu arc?

Overall pretty good chapter.
Believe it not I actually enjoyed Piccolo and Gohan this time. It's not finished yet so there is still time for a Piccolo solo fight. There is still Saganbo left or if we are lucky maybe even Moro. They can show off their training even more.

Yamcha and Chiaotzu are fighting again so even I cant complain about this chapter! My favourite chapter so far.

Trunks and Goten are just simply done.
As much as I would love Piccolo to take a crack at Moro for wiping out his entire race, I just don't see how that's possible without some last minute power up with the Namekian book of legends or something of that nature. Very unlikely.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Gligarman » Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:49 am

Personally I think this chapter made up for some of my previous frustrations with their previous fight. The fan service won me over this month. Lol

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:27 am

This chapter pretty succinctly exemplifies the same problems I had with the anime's Universe Survival arc -- none of the protagonists are actually doing anything. There's no meaningful progression here. No journey for these guys. Yamcha beats up some mooks while Piccolo and Gohan team up with a shiny new attack to take down Not!Hit, but these aren't compelling obstacles for the characters. Not only are they not serving the narrative, I'd argue the narrative isn't really serving them either.

TKA is absolutely right. Dragon Ball is a story, not a video game. I don't care about who gets the limelight, I care about the main themes, plot progression and central conflict that everything else in the story should 100% revolve around. If that reduces the involvement of the cast to little more than Goku and Vegeta again, so be it.

At the very least, I'm glad Yamcha wasn't reduced to a meme.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:45 am

The Undying wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:27 am
TKA is absolutely right. Dragon Ball is a story, not a video game. I don't care about who gets the limelight, I care about the main themes, plot progression and central conflict that everything else in the story should 100% revolve around. If that reduces the involvement of the cast to little more than Goku and Vegeta again, so be it.
If we're asking for a narrative that makes sense, why is Freeza still a thing? Why RoF at all or Super Saiyan Gods or anything else? The only Arc that tried to take advantage of Dragon Ball's new cosmology was the Zamasu Arc which was a mixed bag. Everything before it and everything after it has been dumb fanservicey crap.

And why wouldn't it be? Where else is there to take the two lead characters? No where. They've run the course of their stories so thoroughly they're deities. I dunno about you but that's usually when my DnD groups roll up new characters. So I'm not understanding why so many readers seem opposed to the idea of Goku and Vegeta being put on a bus until it's time to fight the big bad. That's been Goku's role since the Saiyan Arc.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:05 am

I agree with everything TKA said. Especially in a manga, which has only a limited space to tell the story, not only this chapter but many other in this arc were just filler. Because showing Bulma on Earth going to her sister to contact the Patrol was the most pointless waste of space, to make an example, as we didn’t see what Chi-Chi was up to for the same reason: we wouldn’t care, and it wouldn’t have served the story.

The last chapter did something right: it skipped the gathering and preparation of Earth warriors for this threat (let an eventual animated adaptation show us that) then it went back to the very slow-moving pace seen in several chapters this arc. I wouldn’t have cared if Toyotaro just showed Moro and his grunts attacking various places on Earth, that gathering of Earth warriors, 17 and 18 attacking 73 and the other guy, and then skip or speed-up all those rather pointless and fanservicey fights and immediately show Moro not pleased with his mooks deciding to go to Earth, to further the plot more and in more meaningful ways.

Honestly I don’t really care if the pacing is excessively slow, as it doesn’t really make re-readings boring and I am quite sure Toyotaro is being forced to slow things down for reasons (this arc won’t be over for a while, in my opinion, or else a new arc would have to start and who knows if they already have an idea of what to do next).
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lionel » Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:57 am

If people are looking for meaningful context to the humans fighting Moro's subordinates then they can look to the fact that it's through said subordinates that Moro is able to effectively navigate through the universe and locate potential worlds of sentient lifeforms for Moro to consume. For some reason the accrual of valuables and treasure is deemed important for the group as Moro's "ideals" are realised. The humans taking out these individuals not only slows Moro's devouring of worlds but he should have a more difficult time locating them on his own.

I personally found story developments like Vegeta insisting that he fight an already disqualified opponent, Frost, just to appease his own ego and Goku learning the Mafuba, an ability that ultimately didn't hold meaning in the manga, to be superfluous. Those occasions are arguably more wasteful for the plot's progression and even disrespectful to other characters. At least these fights are having some type of consequence, even if it means just slowing Moro down in his ambitions.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:50 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:10 am

But this was not a fanservice for no reason. The people in the last chapter were complaining about how it didn't make sense not to gather all the Z Fighters to face Moro (since Dende managed to find 17) and how that would just be the plot's convenience. So as it should be, Toyotaro did bring all the warriors together because that was the logic. If the Earth is being invaded, then it is natural for the most powerful to protect it.

And I think that in this case it was an invasion that makes more sense, since Moro attacked all parts of the planet to steal the riches instead of the fight concentrated in one place
I think you misunderstand me. I get the reason. It's fine, it's logical. Earth gets invaded, warriors get recruited to defend. Makes sense to me.

My problem is that it's been overdone, & as a result it doesn't bring anything interesting to the storytelling aspect.

Wouldn't it be more interesting if readers were imparted the idea that even without preparation, the Earth is still in good hands b/c its domestic fighters are a notch above the antagonists? That the antagonists severely underestimated our heroes, instead of the other way around? That they've come a long, long way since the Saiyan invasion?

I would've found that far more endearing & satisfying rather than the Galactic Patrol recruit shit again.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:35 am

I just realized that it would be very funny if, when planet hopping, Goku abuses his Galactic Patrol status to skip a line to eat, due to being hungry and short on time, and after the Moro fight is over he is then banned from the organization forever for having broken their rule, and is also harshly criticized for that, despite having contributed to beat Moro.

I think Toyotaro could make a great gag out of that rule he came up with when Goku and Vegeta joined the patrol.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:29 am

TKA wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:52 pm
wolflonnie wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:15 pm
But I think an even better writer would've thought a way of making at least either Krillin or Tien somehow useful.
I don't think that's necessarily a better writer. That would be a writer going out of his way to have his/the fans' favorites do something. Toriyama sidelined these characters back in the Android arc. Do you realize how long ago that was? It could be argued that bringing them back to suddenly be "useful" would be going against what Toriyama did with them.

Personally, I think they were useful, since it was their eliminations that allowed Frost and a whole other universe to be eliminated without their team having to waste energy in a protracted battle.
Android arc happened a long time ago, that doesn't mean that Toriyama wants to ignore Earthlings for the rest of the series. In Boo Saga we have the Tien being useful and saving Gohan, in BoG we have all the Z Fighters facing Beerus and in the RoF we all have them again facing Freeza's soldiers.

Toriyama even chose every member of U7 in ToP, so it's not like he still ignores the Earthlings or considers them useless. That is why I see no problem with Toyotaro introducing them to the Moro arc, since it is obvious that if the Earth is being invaded, the defense force of the planet needs to be the strongest warriors.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:54 pm

I don't see the problem in U7 fodder dealing with other universe's fodder. That is not bad writing, it is safe, convenient writing, mediocre perhaps, not fresh or great, but bad writing? just to have fighters fighting people of their own level? Nah.
They had 80 participants, too many unnecessary fodder. Good for Toyble to find a way to not copy the anime and try something else when Toriyama went with the outrageous 10 fighters per-universe.

To me bad writing would be RoF, or having a retired character that couldn't dodge Piccolo Daimaoh to save his life, dodge the strongest ningen of all just to prove a point while making him look stupid. There is no way around it, I've read every justification, explanation, excuse in many languages. They could've used your help in like every fight of the past 20 years, old man, where were you?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:19 pm

TKA wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:23 am
It's been, what, 30 years since the Nappa fight but nobody looks any older. There's no progression. We're constantly stuck in this bubble of nostalgia that never gets popped. Time cannot move and there can be no development because then the iconic images can't be re-sold to us.
Even though I do appreciate the love they giving to Yamcha after trashing him in both medias with stupid memes, I also agree with that.

One of the greatest things about DB is how the characters moved on when they knew they couldn't be more useful. That's why I was against Roshi coming back, because it totaly diminishes his arc in the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai.

For seriously though this battle should have only Gohan, Goten, Trunks, 17, 18 and Boo. All the rest could sit and drink coffee.
TKA wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:23 pm
I can't speak for the anime, since that is absolute garbage that descends into nostalgia as its average state.
:lol:

Okay, let's pretend the manga never did any attempt to fans nostalgia.
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I don’t know about you guys, and it might be completely random😂 But I absolutely LOVE the designs of these random aliens Goku encounters during space! Totally Toriyama/Toyotaro like! Love it!
Are you kidding? There's nothing special about these designs, they are only squids with draw faces. Gosh I absolutely despise how simple and lazy Toriyama/Toyotaro/Toei can be regarding alien designs sometimes... They sure can do good ones like Gurdo, Burta and anime Yardratians, but in general most are terrible.

I wish DB had more alien designs like this:
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