"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lionel » Fri Mar 20, 2020 2:59 pm

Is it wrong that I gleaned more enjoyment from Gohan and Piccolo's amazing teamwork than I did Goku pummelling all the minions into submission with no exertion? The clichéd trope of ascensional dazzlement only works for so long before it grows uninteresting. What was probably most remarkable about Goku this chapter, for me, was his final comments about Ultra Instinct and its affiliation to deities. Does it seem like Moro had some kind of familiarity with it?

I'll tell you why you and the others have fallen behind, Piccolo. It's because, for whatever reason, you and everyone else that isn't Vegeta decided to forego any innovative training methods and teachers that could have helped bolster your power levels. You guys don't bother to learn the Kaioken which could at least help compensate for Super Saiyan to an extent. You haven't used the ROSAT since Cell when it was already a moot point. Let's not even get into the god ki and Whis apprenticeship aspects which have not even been entertained by you guys. The author just seems content to have you all maintain your deference for the two Saiyan "prodigies" -- even Gohan, in spite of his fabled potential, can't so much as glance Goku's base form now. I find it absurd, honestly.

At least there's the optics of Piccolo performing more capably than the cyborgs siblings. Does it mean he's surpassed them once again? I would hope so.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by nato25 » Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:07 pm

Was this the most derivitive chapter of super ever...

- Goku coming to save the day last minute
- Krillin asking if he's scared, goku saying I'm excited and Krillin somehow being surprised. Missed chance for a good joke of Krillin butting in and saying wait I know you're excited or something like that.
- piccolo and gohans speech about when did you surpass us. Z warriors always bringing that up in the past especially Tien.
- Saganbo was basically a more cogniscent Yakon and died the same way. But I at least liked that he wanted more power and said he wanted to serve Moro as a thank you.

At least Goku tried to take out Moro with a surprise attack. That doesn't normally happen from memory.

Yeah a mess of a chapter, my least favorite by a long stretch.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:12 pm

The pacing is definitely off. There's no purpose to Saganbo, like...at all. We don't need to see him beaten down more than once or twice. Toyo-tarou needs to learn to stop dragging his heels. Gokuu moving on to face Moro directly all should take place in two or three pages after having a word with his friends.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Michsi » Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:16 pm

There would've been a purpose to Saganbo had any of the other fighters managed to defeat him. Just given a sense of satisfaction and accomplishment to anyone that isn't Goku or Vegeta, but I am really amazed they aren't even allowed to win against minions anymore.

It makes Piccolo and Gohan's shame at not being able to defeat an enemy on their own almost cruel, because you know this self-realization won't result in them getting a development later on.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Triggered Vegeta » Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:18 pm

Lionel wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 2:59 pm
Is it wrong that I gleaned more enjoyment from Gohan and Piccolo's amazing teamwork than I did Goku pummelling all the minions into submission with no exertion? The clichéd trope of ascensional dazzlement only works for so long before it grows uninteresting. What was probably most remarkable about Goku this chapter, for me, was his final comments about Ultra Instinct and its affiliation to deities. Does it seem like Moro had some kind of familiarity with it?

I'll tell you why you and the others have fallen behind, Piccolo. It's because, for whatever reason, you and everyone else that isn't Vegeta decided to forego any innovative training methods and teachers that could have helped bolster your power levels. You guys don't bother to learn the Kaioken which could at least help compensate for Super Saiyan to an extent. You haven't used the ROSAT since Cell when it was already a moot point. Let's not even get into the god ki and Whis apprenticeship aspects which have not even been entertained by you guys. The author just seems content to have you all maintain your deference for the two Saiyan "prodigies" -- even Gohan, in spite of his fabled potential, can't so much as glance Goku's base form now. I find it absurd, honestly.

At least there's the optics of Piccolo performing more capably than the cyborgs siblings. Does it mean he's surpassed them once again? I would hope so.
Apparently when Goku arrived to pummel Saganbo, he was using UI Omen. This is why Gohan & Piccolo couldn't see his movements.

The fact Jaco can actually see Goku is crazy, like can he see anyone no matter the speed? Also, yeah I find it odd how they never introduced God Ki to Gohan or Piccolo or maybe even Krillin!?

I don't like how they make Goku & Vegeta the only ones capable of protecting the earth. Just centered around those two :(

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:22 pm

Michsi wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:16 pm
There would've been a purpose to Saganbo had any of the other fighters managed to defeat him. Just given a sense of satisfaction and accomplishment to anyone that isn't Goku or Vegeta, but I am really amazed they aren't even allowed to win against minions anymore.

It makes Piccolo and Gohan's shame at not being able to defeat an enemy on their own almost cruel, because you know this self-realization won't result in them getting a development later on.
It's really annoying. While reading the chapter I kept wondering if maybe Saganbo would be a chance to give Moro some sort of likable quality, like perhaps caring about his soldiers but all we get in the end is Moro being annoying. We don't even get to see why Saganbo dreads returning to the prison. I mean, imprisonment is a fucking sham and all but dang, this is just tedious.

I'd have just had all of the Earthlings defeat Moro's men at the caught of near-exhaustion so that Gokuu could appear to fight Moro before he did away with them. At least then the Earthling group would have a reason why so many of them would lose against only one foe.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:33 pm

We're finally moving from "decent" and "sort of okay" territory into "great" territory, just like the Super manga used to be. It's about fucking time, Toyotaro!

I thoroughly enjoyed what this chapter did with Ultra Instinct. Instead of being some grand demonstration of big flashy attacks, its speed is highlighted and has this subtle, super swift ninja-esque trick that stealthily throws Saganbo off-guard and leaves him wide open to strikes that Gohan and Piccolo otherwise failed to achieve with more head-on ki blasts. I like when pre-established abilities are applied in fresh ways, and using the flawed Ultra Instinct "Omen" to do this is smart because it retains the full Ultra Instinct as a plateau that Goku can't easily reach by himself. That's a good compromise.

Pretty solid use of dialogue here as well. It's interesting to see Goku and Moro engaged in some sort of bargaining game, with Moro ultimately getting his way by pressuring Goku to use his new ability. That's a nice bit of character writing that contrasts how these two opponents see their allies while emphasizing how much of a skilled manipulator Moro can be, attempting to force his enemy's hand with minimal effort. Definitely appreciate how effective Moro is as an antagonist, with Saganbo being a useful scapegoat to illustrate those personality traits.

Oh, and to be clear, Goku taking the spotlight is absolutely fine. He should be taking the spotlight - this story arc revolves firmly around Goku and Vegeta, not the Earthlings that were introduced haphazardly into the plot a few chapters ago. Having him successfully fend off baddies that other characters struggled with is great; it displays the results of his training by contrasting his performance with that of the secondary heroes, avoids all this useless filler that was so abundant in previous chapters, and shows off new applications of a coveted technique. This should have happened months ago.

I don't care about superfluous "moments", and I don't want to see Toyotaro throwing a bone to fighters that have little to no bearing on the progression and themes of the arc. That's bad storytelling and should stay where it belongs: Toei's scripts. Good on him for trimming the fat.

If the manga keeps this up and does something worthwhile with Vegeta, the arc is at least set to conclude on a high note.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Fri Mar 20, 2020 4:21 pm

I enjoyed it but I'm conflicted on a few things. This chapter was certainly "classic DBZ" what with Goku coming to save the day. Although it's a hackneyed trope, there's still something very cathartic about seeing our boy Sun Wukong doing what he does best with a smile on his face. I think it helps that Goku had been absent from the story for so long that it's genuinely pleasing to see him again. However, it feels cheap that the Z-Fighters' efforts were pretty much barely relevant filler as many had anticipated. I do think that the previous chapters did them justice as we got to see the series' first true pan-global fight happening in all kinds of locations, so I don't think that was a completely pointless waste or anything, but still...

Saganbo is and always has been a frankly lame henchman but I really liked how Moro used him as a bargaining chip to keep Goku on the backfoot. Unfortunately I think it was squandered way too early. It could have been a really tense, unique type of standoff with the minion's life at stake forcing Goku to act. Also, Saganbo's death felt like something out of '90s DBZ. Brutal.

And of course, Ultra Instinct. Big deal. Yes-yes.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kagari » Fri Mar 20, 2020 4:31 pm

Lionel wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 2:59 pm
Is it wrong that I gleaned more enjoyment from Gohan and Piccolo's amazing teamwork than I did Goku pummelling all the minions into submission with no exertion? The clichéd trope of ascensional dazzlement only works for so long before it grows uninteresting. What was probably most remarkable about Goku this chapter, for me, was his final comments about Ultra Instinct and its affiliation to deities. Does it seem like Moro had some kind of familiarity with it?

I'll tell you why you and the others have fallen behind, Piccolo. It's because, for whatever reason, you and everyone else that isn't Vegeta decided to forego any innovative training methods and teachers that could have helped bolster your power levels. You guys don't bother to learn the Kaioken which could at least help compensate for Super Saiyan to an extent. You haven't used the ROSAT since Cell when it was already a moot point. Let's not even get into the god ki and Whis apprenticeship aspects which have not even been entertained by you guys. The author just seems content to have you all maintain your deference for the two Saiyan "prodigies" -- even Gohan, in spite of his fabled potential, can't so much as glance Goku's base form now. I find it absurd, honestly.

At least there's the optics of Piccolo performing more capably than the cyborgs siblings. Does it mean he's surpassed them once again? I would hope so.
The teamwork aspect was definitely more interesting. If anything, that panel with Goku, Gohan and Piccolo together should have led them beating up on Saganbo together and not just another demonstration of the 'mighty Goku' once again. Showing off his training could have been saved for Moro specifically. There's no need to repeat the same tropes from 25 years ago. Gohan and Piccolo are said to have powered up through training again - okay, but use this time to show it off instead of keeping it as a line on the page.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:04 pm

For me, it's definitely not too soon for Ultra Instinct, especially the Omen version. Ultra Instinct was first hinted at in Resurrection F. Aside from the fact that Goku used Omen multiple times in the Tournament of Power, we've already gone an arc-and-a-half without Goku having any control over it. He trained hard with an angel who was borderline breaking the rules to learn it. After all of that, it would be completely pointless if Goku couldn't at least accomplish this much. Besides, since Goku said he wasn't going to eat like Merus, if that helped at all, I can't see Goku keeping up with that requirement in the long run...

I found the leaks/spoilers to be particularly misleading this month, so that's always something to keep in mind.

I read some early complaints about the Artificial Humans sitting out this part of the battle. No.17's success in the Tournament of Power in the later half was due to brains, not determination and brawn. No.17 and 18 are punks who were unwillingly given powers, not disciplined martial artists, so the fact that they don't want to take it to the limit makes sense to me.

The moment where Goku apologizes to Gohan sums up exactly how I've viewed their relationship in the DBS manga. Since the Universe 6 tournament, Goku's been leaving Gohan out of the conflict because he knows Gohan's heart isn't in it. Gohan doesn't love to fight, but he's come to realize that he can't just leave it up to his dad forever, and Goku's not going to force him anymore. Their exchange here spells that out blatantly.

I liked Jaco's role in this chapter. I enjoyed seeing just how high-tier his vision is, especially since it started off as a minor plot element in his original manga.

Saganbo didn't stand out much until now, but I'm happy with his small arc. His overload was extremely unsettling in a good way...props to Toyotaro (although Viz kind of diluted the impact by not changing Saganbo's speech font in the final moments like in the Japanese version). He played well into Goku's dynamic with Moro, and I don't think Goku has hated a villain so much since Freeza.

Really looking forward to next month. Strap in, it seems we still have several months before this thing ends.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kagari » Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:08 pm

batistabus wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:04 pm
For me, it's definitely not too soon for Ultra Instinct, especially the Omen version. Ultra Instinct was first hinted at in Resurrection F. Aside from the fact that Goku used Omen multiple times in the Tournament of Power, we've already gone an arc-and-a-half without Goku having any control over it. He trained hard with an angel who was borderline breaking the rules to learn it. After all of that, it would be completely pointless if Goku couldn't at least accomplish this much. Besides, since Goku said he wasn't going to eat like Merus, if that helped at all, I can't see Goku keeping up with that requirement in the long run...

I found the leaks/spoilers to be particularly misleading this month, so that's always something to keep in mind.

I read some early complaints about the Artificial Humans sitting out this part of the battle. No.17's success in the Tournament of Power in the later half was due to brains, not determination and brawn. No.17 and 18 are punks who were unwillingly given powers, not disciplined martial artists, so the fact that they don't want to take it to the limit makes sense to me.

The moment where Goku apologizes to Gohan sums up exactly how I've viewed their relationship in the DBS manga. Since the Universe 6 tournament, Goku's been leaving Gohan out of the conflict because he knows Gohan's heart isn't in it. Gohan doesn't love to fight, but he's come to realize that he can't just leave it up to his dad forever, and Goku's not going to force him anymore. Their exchange here spells that out blatantly.

I liked Jaco's role in this chapter. I enjoyed seeing just how high-tier his vision is, especially since it started off as a minor plot element in his original manga.

Saganbo didn't stand out much until now, but I'm happy with his small arc. His overload was extremely unsettling in a good way...props to Toyotaro (although Viz kind of diluted the impact by not changing Saganbo's speech font in the final moments like in the Japanese version). He played well into Goku's dynamic with Moro, and I don't think Goku has hated a villain so much since Freeza.

Really looking forward to next month. Strap in, it seems we still have several months before this thing ends.
Goku never forced him to fight, ever, though. Each time Gohan fought it was his own choice with the exception of *Piccolo* forcing him to fight the Saiyans at the start of that battle.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Zamasu55 » Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:09 pm

So 17 < Piccolo confirmed then.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:11 pm

Random and scattered thoughts of Chapter 58:

- Goku slipping into "waku waku shi masu" mode was quite jarring given how the majority of the arc has had a serious tone. As well as how concentrated and focused Goku has been for the most part of the storyline. This was kind of the shit that all over the place in the anime -- with it reaching its nadir in the Future Trunks arc -- and it a shame to see that in the manga considering how well characterised has been in the arc so far.

- Context: Goku easily defeats a no-name scrub that the Earthlings were struggling against.
Yamcha's response: "Some things never change".
You can't tell this wasn't meta commentary on the Dragon Ball franchise.

- Saganbo got some neat little characterisation. I really wish the arc would have done more to explore the idea behind the Moro's cronies doing his bidding because he gives them power and doesn't make them feel pathetic.

- I laughed when Jaco got into a verbal argument with Saganbo only to say the wrong shit and try to take it back as a joke when Saganbo got pissed at him.

- Goku beating the shit out of Saganbo so quickly nobody could see was an brilliant visual. Helped by the really good panelling.

- Okay, Moro just casually flicking Saganbo away when Goku threw him at him was both hysterical and awesome. Without a doubt the best character beat Moro has provided in this entire arc.

- It's happened... Super Saiyan Blue has turned into a warm up transformation in both the anime and manga. Damn it.

- I'm conflicted about Goku's battle with Saganbo. On one hand, it does a pretty job of (finally) providing some interesting characterisation for Moro. We see him a sadistic, power obsessed brute who has no issue with abusing his allies -- who his views as disipaoble -- for his own amusement, rather than doing in it card carrying villain reasons. And the visual of Saganbo overloading on power, while also promising to defeat Goku is pretty dramatic.

On the other hand, this extended battle stalls the plot again. Remember how Goku arrived on Namek, realised how bad shit was with the supporting against Reccome, and defeated his with one attack? That's what should have happened hear. Goku should have briefly tapped into Ultra Instinct and taken down Saganbo with one attack. It would have provided the set-up for Goku and Moro's confrontation, while also giving a glimpse of how Goku can innately tap into Ultra Instinct, and kept the pace of the arc to a light breeze.

- Considering the conclusion of the conflict with Saganbo is him dying, with Goku displaying nothing out the ordinary to defeat him, the whole battle felt so pointless. Goku fighting Saganbo was fun to watch, but it was completely bankrupt when it came to actual storytelling. It all goes back to the complaint I had last month about how the Earthlings fighting Moro's cronies could have been handled off-screen and it would have had just as much impact and emotional weight on the story. Or better yet, just have the Earthlings win, and Moro wipe the deck with everyone and have Goku make his dynamic entry debuting his ability to innately tap into Ultra Instinct. While the Earthling fighting Moro's cronies did provide some cool visuals, it ultimately added nothing to the story other than that... cool visuals. It's no better or worse than the Earthlings fighting Freeza's jobber army in Resurrection F. If anything, this could have been a great opportunity for Gohan to continue his character motivation of choosing to evolve a human rather than a Saiyan, as was mentioned in the Tournament Of Power, but even that doesn't happen, nor is it even brought up.

- Why Goku taps into the incomplete version of Ultra Instinct after attaining the true version of the technique mystifies me. That's not how Ultra Instinct works in either medium. The only reason the incomplete version of Ultra Instinct existed in the first place was because Goku didn't master the ability. Hell, Goku immediately phased out of Ultra Instinct the first time he attained it was because he found a chance to tap into its power. And the only reason Goku burned out in Ultra Instinct when he attained the true version of it was because hadn't trained enough to wield its power properly. This would be like Goku transforming into the same kind of Super Saiyan we saw on Namek, before revealing his mastered version of the same Super Saiyan transformation shortly after that against Cell. Or Goku using a one handed version of the Genki Dama, before using the version which creates a sphere of Ki as large a moon against Kid Boo. The incomplete version of Ultra Instinct has no reason to make a return other than to turn what was once a unique technique into a ANOTHER standard transformation.

I mean, it was bound to happen, but that doesn't make it any less disappointing. I really got a kick out of how Ultra Instinct was basically a fight-or-flight response ability. I at least hope Ultra Instinct goes down the same route of SSJ3 where Goku can access it, but can't control its full power for extended periods of time. I REALLY hope this doesn't turn into another Super Saiyan 4 scenario, where Goku can just access the full power for as long as he can, and at any time he wants.

- Okay with how the chapter ended, it's very obvious Toyotaro was looking for any way to stretch out the plot so that Ultra Instinct Goku would be the cliffhanger

In conclusion...this chapter got the job done, but it took too bloody long to do it.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:12 pm

Kagari wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:08 pm
Goku never forced him to fight, ever, though. Each time Gohan fought it was his own choice with the exception of *Piccolo* forcing him to fight the Saiyans at the start of that battle.
Gohan vs Cell and everything that lead up to that.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kagari » Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:13 pm

batistabus wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:12 pm
Kagari wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:08 pm
Goku never forced him to fight, ever, though. Each time Gohan fought it was his own choice with the exception of *Piccolo* forcing him to fight the Saiyans at the start of that battle.
Gohan vs Cell and everything that lead up to that.
Gohan agreed to train (he was excited to do so) and he agrees to fight Cell when Goku asks him to. Goku did not force him.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lionel » Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:15 pm

Kagari wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 4:31 pm
Lionel wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 2:59 pm
Is it wrong that I gleaned more enjoyment from Gohan and Piccolo's amazing teamwork than I did Goku pummelling all the minions into submission with no exertion? The clichéd trope of ascensional dazzlement only works for so long before it grows uninteresting. What was probably most remarkable about Goku this chapter, for me, was his final comments about Ultra Instinct and its affiliation to deities. Does it seem like Moro had some kind of familiarity with it?

I'll tell you why you and the others have fallen behind, Piccolo. It's because, for whatever reason, you and everyone else that isn't Vegeta decided to forego any innovative training methods and teachers that could have helped bolster your power levels. You guys don't bother to learn the Kaioken which could at least help compensate for Super Saiyan to an extent. You haven't used the ROSAT since Cell when it was already a moot point. Let's not even get into the god ki and Whis apprenticeship aspects which have not even been entertained by you guys. The author just seems content to have you all maintain your deference for the two Saiyan "prodigies" -- even Gohan, in spite of his fabled potential, can't so much as glance Goku's base form now. I find it absurd, honestly.

At least there's the optics of Piccolo performing more capably than the cyborgs siblings. Does it mean he's surpassed them once again? I would hope so.
The teamwork aspect was definitely more interesting. If anything, that panel with Goku, Gohan and Piccolo together should have led them beating up on Saganbo together and not just another demonstration of the 'mighty Goku' once again. Showing off his training could have been saved for Moro specifically. There's no need to repeat the same tropes from 25 years ago. Gohan and Piccolo are said to have powered up through training again - okay, but use this time to show it off instead of keeping it as a line on the page.
I wholeheartedly agree with you. Goku appearing could have offered some interesting threeway teamwork dynamics that you don't normally see in the manga. They didn't need to pedestal Goku yet again at that moment when we know he's going to predictably shine against Moro.

Speaking of the centrality of the manga's focus and what constitutes as being superfluous, this arc initially revolved around the prospect of Dai Kaioshin taking the stage after countless millennia of assimilative subdual in order to quell an old familiar threat. It progressed from there to encompass the Namekian population and their set of Dragon Balls which became integral to Moro's ambitions. Things could change in the future but as it stands I don't see this previous villain beating personified artifact taking the stage.

Vegeta's personal arm-wrung remorse for the atrocities he committed against the Namekians and his newfound desire to protect them is an understandable mindset to take, but realistically he shouldn't be the only one with a personal stake in this. These are Piccolo's people, his original place of origin that was yet again wiped out by a sociopathic megalomaniac looking to exploit their Dragon Balls for themselves. Why isn't he taking a more direct role in the battle against Moro personally? Moro's disposable lackeys which Piccolo can't even fully handle on his own doesn't really constitute as self-fulfilling narrative requital, does it? Imagine if another arc revolved around Broly or the U6 Saiyans but Goku and Vegeta were nowhere to be seen or played in a limited capacity to the broader story being told. I suspect many fans would be understandably upset and put off by that.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:19 pm

Kagari wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:13 pm
batistabus wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:12 pm
Kagari wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:08 pm
Goku never forced him to fight, ever, though. Each time Gohan fought it was his own choice with the exception of *Piccolo* forcing him to fight the Saiyans at the start of that battle.
Gohan vs Cell and everything that lead up to that.
Gohan agreed to train (he was excited to do so) and he agrees to fight Cell when Goku asks him to. Goku did not force him.
"Agreed". When you're 11 and your dad tells you to do something, you do it. Are you arguing that Gohan loves fighting? C'mon. Gohan has been made to fight by one force or another, but when it was up to him, he gave up on it completely (Resurrection F). In Super, he's found a way to improve gradually, but still doesn't seek it out whole-heatedly. This isn't my interpretation.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Michsi » Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:23 pm

Kagari wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:13 pm
batistabus wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:12 pm
Kagari wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:08 pm
Goku never forced him to fight, ever, though. Each time Gohan fought it was his own choice with the exception of *Piccolo* forcing him to fight the Saiyans at the start of that battle.
Gohan vs Cell and everything that lead up to that.
Gohan agreed to train (he was excited to do so) and he agrees to fight Cell when Goku asks him to. Goku did not force him.
I don't want to extend the argument, but as a kid Gohan almost always did as he was told, especially when it came from his father. He was obedient and believed in what his father said, but he straight up told Cell he disliked fighting.

And Goku apologizing to Gohan for him having to fight again was actually neat, because it gives you the impression Goku was recalling his mistake during the Cell Games. I'll take this over Goku's bratty scene in the U6 arc.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kagari » Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:30 pm

batistabus wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:19 pm
Kagari wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:13 pm
batistabus wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:12 pm

Gohan vs Cell and everything that lead up to that.
Gohan agreed to train (he was excited to do so) and he agrees to fight Cell when Goku asks him to. Goku did not force him.
"Agreed". When you're 11 and your dad tells you to do something, you do it. Are you arguing that Gohan loves fighting? C'mon. Gohan has been made to fight by one force or another, but when it was up to him, he gave up on it completely (Resurrection F). In Super, he's found a way to improve gradually, but still doesn't seek it out whole-heatedly. This isn't my interpretation.
Again, he still agreed to it and wasn't "forced" out there like people love to claim he was. If he had said no but then shoved out there, *that* would have been forced. Gohan does like fighting, just not in the same sense that his dad does, and he's not just going to sit by if something happens. He also enjoys it for casual sport/sparring - something which is shown in the original manga post Cell and in Super's anime. With the series continuing and Gohan still training/getting stronger to protect people, it's actually RoF which is the odd one out here.
Michsi wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:23 pm
Kagari wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:13 pm
batistabus wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:12 pm

Gohan vs Cell and everything that lead up to that.
Gohan agreed to train (he was excited to do so) and he agrees to fight Cell when Goku asks him to. Goku did not force him.
I don't want to extend the argument, but as a kid Gohan almost always did as he was told, especially when it came from his father. He was obedient and believed in what his father said, but he straight up told Cell he disliked fighting.

And Goku apologizing to Gohan for him having to fight again was actually neat, because it gives you the impression Goku was recalling his mistake during the Cell Games. I'll take this over Goku's bratty scene in the U6 arc.
He told Cell he doesn't like fighting "like dad does". He found the death match meaningless but still stepped up when Cell wasn't going to back down.

Even in the Boo arc Gohan still wasn't being forced, making his own decisions to fight. Taking the initiative even, in many of the cases.

Michsi
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Michsi » Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:42 pm

Kagari wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:30 pm

He told Cell he doesn't like fighting "like dad does". He found the death match meaningless but still stepped up when Cell wasn't going to back down.

Even in the Boo arc Gohan still wasn't being forced, making his own decisions to fight. Taking the initiative even, in many of the cases.
I agree that Gohan shows some interest in the fighting, mostly because he does seem to have a competitive drive and saiyan pride, but it's exactly that "not like his dad" aspect that makes all the difference in a story about fighting for fighting's sake. Same as with Goten and Trunks, they were really into it as kids but treated it all more or less as a game. As teenagers you see them actually scoff at the idea of being forced to train and join the tournament, hence why I don't see a problem with them not being used anymore unless you just like them as characters.

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