"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
Koitsukai
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1400
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:45 pm

I didn't dislike the chapter, actually I found it to have several great things like Goku's arrival and his invisible stomp on Saganbo, and the fact that he now controls Sign UI at will, but I was hoping to get real action.
That whole Saganbo bit went for too long, Moro was already established to be a super-psychopath, and Saganbo was just shown to be fodder to Goku, get him out of the way already, we've been in this journey for over a year now. I feel this arc is dropping the pace, the last 2 chapters were about the Z-fighters vs nobodies, and for this one I really wanted to get things going. I guess the global quarantine isn't helping the wait either.

Also, will Buu/Daikaioshin make a comeback? this arc sort of started off with him, and by now I can hardly remember if he was useful or not

User avatar
Lionel
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1897
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:54 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lionel » Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:46 pm

Michsi wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:42 pm
Kagari wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:30 pm

He told Cell he doesn't like fighting "like dad does". He found the death match meaningless but still stepped up when Cell wasn't going to back down.

Even in the Boo arc Gohan still wasn't being forced, making his own decisions to fight. Taking the initiative even, in many of the cases.
I agree that Gohan shows some interest in the fighting, mostly because he does seem to have a competitive drive and saiyan pride, but it's exactly that "not like his dad" aspect that makes all the difference in a story about fighting for fighting's sake. Same as with Goten and Trunks, they were really into it as kids but treated it all more or less as a game. As teenagers you see them actually scoff at the idea of being forced to train and join the tournament, hence why I don't see a problem with them not being used anymore unless you just like them as characters.
At the very least Gohan should be keeping up with his training. We know he engaged in mental sparring with Krillin seemingly for recreational purposes on the voyage to Namek and there wasn't any notations about his power decreasing due to lack of training in the Mecha Freeza arc.

With what we know of Gohan's potential, he should be considerably stronger and a competitive force in the fighting.

User avatar
Kagari
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 851
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:11 pm
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kagari » Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:49 pm

Lionel wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:15 pm
I wholeheartedly agree with you. Goku appearing could have offered some interesting threeway teamwork dynamics that you don't normally see in the manga. They didn't need to pedestal Goku yet again at that moment when we know he's going to predictably shine against Moro.

Speaking of the centrality of the manga's focus and what constitutes as being superfluous, this arc initially revolved around the prospect of Dai Kaioshin taking the stage after countless millennia of assimilative subdual in order to quell an old familiar threat. It progressed from there to encompass the Namekian population and their set of Dragon Balls which became integral to Moro's ambitions. Things could change in the future but as it stands I don't see this previous villain beating personified artifact taking the stage.

Vegeta's personal arm-wrung remorse for the atrocities he committed against the Namekians and his newfound desire to protect them is an understandable mindset to take, but realistically he shouldn't be the only one with a personal stake in this. These are Piccolo's people, his original place of origin that was yet again wiped out by a sociopathic megalomaniac looking to exploit their Dragon Balls for themselves. Why isn't he taking a more direct role in the battle against Moro personally? Moro's disposable lackeys which Piccolo can't even fully handle on his own doesn't really constitute as self-fulfilling narrative requital, does it? Imagine if another arc revolved around Broly or the U6 Saiyans but Goku and Vegeta were nowhere to be seen or played in a limited capacity to the broader story being told. I suspect many fans would be understandably upset and put off by that.
It's crazy to me that the series hasn't done a proper, lengthy Goku and Gohan team up yet. There's been plenty of chances, teases and whatnot but still we've yet to see it. Meanwhile, Goku and Vegeta have done their song and dance what... 6-7 times now if we count everything in the anime? Boring.

I do agree that Piccolo should have more of a personal stake in what's been going on and I did think the story was going to go that way earlier on when they showed Piccolo taking an interest in said situation. But so far now... he's just been Gohan's and now Goku's hypeman, again. Which okay but... there's nothing stopping the writing from doing both other than Toyo's own imagination.

User avatar
batistabus
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1670
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2010 2:55 pm
Location: Western Massachusetts

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:51 pm

Kagari wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:30 pm
Again, he still agreed to it and wasn't "forced" out there like people love to claim he was. If he had said no but then shoved out there, *that* would have been forced. Gohan does like fighting, just not in the same sense that his dad does, and he's not just going to sit by if something happens. He also enjoys it for casual sport/sparring - something which is shown in the original manga post Cell and in Super's anime. With the series continuing and Gohan still training/getting stronger to protect people, it's actually RoF which is the odd one out here.
Sorry, I'm not sure that's true either. He only competed at the 25th Tenkai'ichi Budokai because Videl forc-I mean...convinced him, and he didn't compete at the 28th Tenka'ichi Budokai at all.

User avatar
Kagari
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 851
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:11 pm
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kagari » Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:54 pm

Michsi wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:42 pm
Kagari wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:30 pm

He told Cell he doesn't like fighting "like dad does". He found the death match meaningless but still stepped up when Cell wasn't going to back down.

Even in the Boo arc Gohan still wasn't being forced, making his own decisions to fight. Taking the initiative even, in many of the cases.
I agree that Gohan shows some interest in the fighting, mostly because he does seem to have a competitive drive and saiyan pride, but it's exactly that "not like his dad" aspect that makes all the difference in a story about fighting for fighting's sake. Same as with Goten and Trunks, they were really into it as kids but treated it all more or less as a game. As teenagers you see them actually scoff at the idea of being forced to train and join the tournament, hence why I don't see a problem with them not being used anymore unless you just like them as characters.
Despite there being the element of 'fighting for fighting's sake' in the series, much of it still revolves around saving the world or whatever. There's always going to be that sort of conflict it seems in Dragon World, so at least in Gohan's case, his current motivations don't detract from the idea of him being active in these conflicts. If anything, they aid him.
batistabus wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:51 pm
Kagari wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:30 pm
Again, he still agreed to it and wasn't "forced" out there like people love to claim he was. If he had said no but then shoved out there, *that* would have been forced. Gohan does like fighting, just not in the same sense that his dad does, and he's not just going to sit by if something happens. He also enjoys it for casual sport/sparring - something which is shown in the original manga post Cell and in Super's anime. With the series continuing and Gohan still training/getting stronger to protect people, it's actually RoF which is the odd one out here.
Sorry, I'm not sure that's true either. He only competed at the 25th Tenkai'ichi Budokai because Videl forc-I mean...convinced him, and he didn't compete at the 28th Tenka'ichi Budokai at all.
It is true. Gohan enjoys martial arts. He wanted to win the 25th WT. He was excited during the raid on Babidi's ship and wanting to show off for dad. He was excited during the Zen Exhibition contests, etc. It's all right there in the text.
Last edited by Kagari on Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Michsi
I Live Here
Posts: 4509
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2010 5:10 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Michsi » Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:55 pm

Lionel wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:46 pm
Michsi wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:42 pm
Kagari wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:30 pm

He told Cell he doesn't like fighting "like dad does". He found the death match meaningless but still stepped up when Cell wasn't going to back down.

Even in the Boo arc Gohan still wasn't being forced, making his own decisions to fight. Taking the initiative even, in many of the cases.
I agree that Gohan shows some interest in the fighting, mostly because he does seem to have a competitive drive and saiyan pride, but it's exactly that "not like his dad" aspect that makes all the difference in a story about fighting for fighting's sake. Same as with Goten and Trunks, they were really into it as kids but treated it all more or less as a game. As teenagers you see them actually scoff at the idea of being forced to train and join the tournament, hence why I don't see a problem with them not being used anymore unless you just like them as characters.
At the very least Gohan should be keeping up with his training. We know he engaged in mental sparring with Krillin seemingly for recreational purposes on the voyage to Namek and there wasn't any notations about his power decreasing due to lack of training in the Mecha Freeza arc.

With what we know of Gohan's potential, he should be considerably stronger and a competitive force in the fighting.
Well, when it comes to "should", a lot of characters fall short.
I'm fine with Gohan being at this level in theory given he isn't pursuing strength with dedication (and that Piccolo seems to be at a place where he can keep up with him fills me with joy, but I know better than to read too much into small fan-servicy moments like this), I just would've liked for him to win the fight.
batistabus wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:51 pm
Kagari wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:30 pm
Again, he still agreed to it and wasn't "forced" out there like people love to claim he was. If he had said no but then shoved out there, *that* would have been forced. Gohan does like fighting, just not in the same sense that his dad does, and he's not just going to sit by if something happens. He also enjoys it for casual sport/sparring - something which is shown in the original manga post Cell and in Super's anime. With the series continuing and Gohan still training/getting stronger to protect people, it's actually RoF which is the odd one out here.
Sorry, I'm not sure that's true either. He only competed at the 25th Tenkai'ichi Budokai because Videl forc-I mean...convinced him, and he didn't compete at the 28th Tenka'ichi Budokai at all.
He wasn't happy about potentially being surpassed by Goten and Trunks when he found out the kids could go SSj and he was fairly eager to fight Dabura. Those are the biggest examples and his cockiness against Boo shows he does have an underlying saiyan side when it comes to taking down an opponent.
Despite there being the element of 'fighting for fighting's sake' in the series, much of it still revolves around saving the world or whatever. There's always going to be that sort of conflict it seems in Dragon World, so at least in Gohan's case, his current motivations don't detract from the idea of him being active in these conflicts. If anything, they aid him.
I'm not against him being present as a fighter at all, but what motivates him is far from what drives the theme of the series.

User avatar
Lionel
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1897
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:54 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lionel » Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:05 pm

Kagari wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:49 pm
Lionel wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:15 pm
I wholeheartedly agree with you. Goku appearing could have offered some interesting threeway teamwork dynamics that you don't normally see in the manga. They didn't need to pedestal Goku yet again at that moment when we know he's going to predictably shine against Moro.

Speaking of the centrality of the manga's focus and what constitutes as being superfluous, this arc initially revolved around the prospect of Dai Kaioshin taking the stage after countless millennia of assimilative subdual in order to quell an old familiar threat. It progressed from there to encompass the Namekian population and their set of Dragon Balls which became integral to Moro's ambitions. Things could change in the future but as it stands I don't see this previous villain beating personified artifact taking the stage.

Vegeta's personal arm-wrung remorse for the atrocities he committed against the Namekians and his newfound desire to protect them is an understandable mindset to take, but realistically he shouldn't be the only one with a personal stake in this. These are Piccolo's people, his original place of origin that was yet again wiped out by a sociopathic megalomaniac looking to exploit their Dragon Balls for themselves. Why isn't he taking a more direct role in the battle against Moro personally? Moro's disposable lackeys which Piccolo can't even fully handle on his own doesn't really constitute as self-fulfilling narrative requital, does it? Imagine if another arc revolved around Broly or the U6 Saiyans but Goku and Vegeta were nowhere to be seen or played in a limited capacity to the broader story being told. I suspect many fans would be understandably upset and put off by that.
It's crazy to me that the series hasn't done a proper, lengthy Goku and Gohan team up yet. There's been plenty of chances, teases and whatnot but still we've yet to see it. Meanwhile, Goku and Vegeta have done their song and dance what... 6-7 times now if we count everything in the anime? Boring.

I do agree that Piccolo should have more of a personal stake in what's been going on and I did think the story was going to go that way earlier on when they showed Piccolo taking an interest in said situation. But so far now... he's just been Gohan's and now Goku's hypeman, again. Which okay but... there's nothing stopping the writing from doing both other than Toyo's own imagination.
Yeah, I mean a collaborative team-up with Gohan could provide some additional unique choreographic dynamics. Goku seemed accepting of working alongside Hit to combat Jiren during the Tournament of Power but when it comes to his own son he retracts himself and seems uncomfortable with involving him. I understand Gohan has been written as disliking fights, earnest life-and-death fights that is, since mid DBZ but he seems to have finally woken up to the realities of needing to be prepared for threats to his family and homeworld.

I would like for the Gohan role to develop for him as a more consistent triagonist. Toriyama already pulled the carpet out from under his feet back in the Buu arc despite building up his potential and the prospect of the younger generation assuming the mantle of protector. From there he took it one step further by adding insult to injury in having Vegeta appropriate Gohan's trademark rage-induced power spikes in the BOG arc. A third slot set aside for Gohan is the least that could be done for him now, in my opinion.

Michsi: I admit the Piccolo fan in me was also ecstatic to see him hanging in there alongside Gohan. It's believable that he could close the gap some if he trained directly with Gohan and they mutually benefited one another. Piccolo's own potential as the famed "Child of Katatz" doesn't get as much recognition, I think.

User avatar
Kagari
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 851
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:11 pm
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kagari » Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:15 pm

Lionel wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:05 pm
Kagari wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:49 pm
Lionel wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:15 pm
I wholeheartedly agree with you. Goku appearing could have offered some interesting threeway teamwork dynamics that you don't normally see in the manga. They didn't need to pedestal Goku yet again at that moment when we know he's going to predictably shine against Moro.

Speaking of the centrality of the manga's focus and what constitutes as being superfluous, this arc initially revolved around the prospect of Dai Kaioshin taking the stage after countless millennia of assimilative subdual in order to quell an old familiar threat. It progressed from there to encompass the Namekian population and their set of Dragon Balls which became integral to Moro's ambitions. Things could change in the future but as it stands I don't see this previous villain beating personified artifact taking the stage.

Vegeta's personal arm-wrung remorse for the atrocities he committed against the Namekians and his newfound desire to protect them is an understandable mindset to take, but realistically he shouldn't be the only one with a personal stake in this. These are Piccolo's people, his original place of origin that was yet again wiped out by a sociopathic megalomaniac looking to exploit their Dragon Balls for themselves. Why isn't he taking a more direct role in the battle against Moro personally? Moro's disposable lackeys which Piccolo can't even fully handle on his own doesn't really constitute as self-fulfilling narrative requital, does it? Imagine if another arc revolved around Broly or the U6 Saiyans but Goku and Vegeta were nowhere to be seen or played in a limited capacity to the broader story being told. I suspect many fans would be understandably upset and put off by that.
It's crazy to me that the series hasn't done a proper, lengthy Goku and Gohan team up yet. There's been plenty of chances, teases and whatnot but still we've yet to see it. Meanwhile, Goku and Vegeta have done their song and dance what... 6-7 times now if we count everything in the anime? Boring.

I do agree that Piccolo should have more of a personal stake in what's been going on and I did think the story was going to go that way earlier on when they showed Piccolo taking an interest in said situation. But so far now... he's just been Gohan's and now Goku's hypeman, again. Which okay but... there's nothing stopping the writing from doing both other than Toyo's own imagination.
Yeah, I mean a collaborative team-up with Gohan could provide some additional unique choreographic dynamics. Goku seemed accepting of working alongside Hit to combat Jiren during the Tournament of Power but when it comes to his own son he retracts himself and seems uncomfortable with involving him. I understand Gohan has been written as disliking fights, earnest life-and-death fights that is, since mid DBZ but he seems to have finally woken up to the realities of needing to be prepared for threats to his family and homeworld.

I would like for the Gohan role to develop for him as a more consistent triagonist. Toriyama already pulled the carpet out from under his feet back in the Buu arc despite building up his potential and the prospect of the younger generation assuming the mantle of protector. From there he took it one step further by adding insult to injury in having Vegeta appropriate Gohan's trademark rage-induced power spikes in the BOG arc. A third slot set aside for Gohan is the least that could be done for him now, in my opinion.

Michsi: I admit the Piccolo fan in me was also ecstatic to see him hanging in there alongside Gohan. It's believable that he could close the gap some if he trained directly with Gohan and they mutually benefited one another. Piccolo's own potential as the famed "Child of Katatz" doesn't get as much recognition, I think.
The anime actually was doing just that following the Trunks arc and to be honest it was a breath of fresh air. Gohan's relationships with both Goku and the other members of the cast just feel more organic than having Vegeta interact with all of them. He's also the only one of the kids allowed to really do anything both before and now so it would make sense to continue giving him those type of front facing roles, yes. This is where I wish Toyotaro actually cared more about character writing because, for all the anime's faults, they still managed at least some of that.

User avatar
LoganForkHands73
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 444
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:54 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:29 pm

Also I forgot to mention one thing that boosted this chapter for me was the clear progression in Toyotaro's art style. It now feels like there's a real flow between panels and action setpieces that isn't so flat and hastily cobbled together. Really nice to see.
I am 999 years old. I don't give a f--

User avatar
batistabus
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1670
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2010 2:55 pm
Location: Western Massachusetts

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:30 pm

Michsi wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:55 pm
He wasn't happy about potentially being surpassed by Goten and Trunks when he found out the kids could go SSj and he was fairly eager to fight Dabura. Those are the biggest examples and his cockiness against Boo shows he does have an underlying saiyan side when it comes to taking down an opponent.
Even if Gohan doesn't love fighting, he still had to work hard to get where he is. To have two kids get to that level so easily feels unfair (and serves as a great comedic punchline). I'm not saying Gohan hates every second that he is fighting; he's an exceptional guy with a positive outlook.

Against Boo, he's confident in his power. Earlier in the arc, Great Saiyaman showed us that Gohan likes to feel "cool", and I think his attitude against Boo is a further expression of that.
Kagari wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:54 pm
He was excited during the Zen Exhibition contests, etc. It's all right there in the text.
Not in the manga. Toei appeals to what is popular much more than Toriyama does, and the fans want to see Gohan as a fighter.

I'd like to hear more of your thoughts if you have them, but I've said all I have to say on the matter. This conversation is pretty off-topic, and I'd rather read peoples thoughts about Chapter 58.

User avatar
Lionel
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1897
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:54 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lionel » Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:36 pm

Kagari wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:15 pm
Lionel wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:05 pm
Kagari wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:49 pm


It's crazy to me that the series hasn't done a proper, lengthy Goku and Gohan team up yet. There's been plenty of chances, teases and whatnot but still we've yet to see it. Meanwhile, Goku and Vegeta have done their song and dance what... 6-7 times now if we count everything in the anime? Boring.

I do agree that Piccolo should have more of a personal stake in what's been going on and I did think the story was going to go that way earlier on when they showed Piccolo taking an interest in said situation. But so far now... he's just been Gohan's and now Goku's hypeman, again. Which okay but... there's nothing stopping the writing from doing both other than Toyo's own imagination.
Yeah, I mean a collaborative team-up with Gohan could provide some additional unique choreographic dynamics. Goku seemed accepting of working alongside Hit to combat Jiren during the Tournament of Power but when it comes to his own son he retracts himself and seems uncomfortable with involving him. I understand Gohan has been written as disliking fights, earnest life-and-death fights that is, since mid DBZ but he seems to have finally woken up to the realities of needing to be prepared for threats to his family and homeworld.

I would like for the Gohan role to develop for him as a more consistent triagonist. Toriyama already pulled the carpet out from under his feet back in the Buu arc despite building up his potential and the prospect of the younger generation assuming the mantle of protector. From there he took it one step further by adding insult to injury in having Vegeta appropriate Gohan's trademark rage-induced power spikes in the BOG arc. A third slot set aside for Gohan is the least that could be done for him now, in my opinion.

Michsi: I admit the Piccolo fan in me was also ecstatic to see him hanging in there alongside Gohan. It's believable that he could close the gap some if he trained directly with Gohan and they mutually benefited one another. Piccolo's own potential as the famed "Child of Katatz" doesn't get as much recognition, I think.
The anime actually was doing just that following the Trunks arc and to be honest it was a breath of fresh air. Gohan's relationships with both Goku and the other members of the cast just feel more organic than having Vegeta interact with all of them. He's also the only one of the kids allowed to really do anything both before and now so it would make sense to continue giving him those type of front facing roles, yes. This is where I wish Toyotaro actually cared more about character writing because, for all the anime's faults, they still managed at least some of that.
I'll be honest, I think the anime might have better ideas than the manga in a lot of respects. They introduced the concept of a semi-consistent weaponised Mafuba in the TOP. Kaioken was reeintroduced after being glaringly, dare I say criminally, absent for the latter half of DBZ. They tried laying down a more thoroughly inspected return-to-form subplot for Gohan instead of just having it get carried out off-screen. Zamasu's fall from grace was elaborated on with a direct encounter against Goku and his frustrations with the role of the Kaioshins in the universe.

The final executions of a lot of these ideas and more leaves things to be desired, but they were good in theory. Now with Gohan, I think the Z-fighters actually gravitate more towards him than Vegeta, perhaps even Goku, for leadership. Goku is typically the premiere powerhouse of the arc that everyone depends on but Gohan seems to take a more concerned interest in the strategic affairs of the group. We saw this with his trying to keep the U7 group together for the sake of mutual protection and preserving their numbers.

User avatar
JulieYBM
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 13603
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:25 pm
Contact:

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:37 pm

Tomioka Atsuhiro's take on Gokuu and Gohan's relationship is a lot more refreshing than just seeing Toyo-tarou pair him together with Piccolo again. I'm really hoping the cartoon doesn't capitulate to the comic by trying to copy Toyo-tarou's ideology on this one once it continues.
She/Her | Popsicle Princess

User avatar
Kagari
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 851
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:11 pm
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kagari » Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:38 pm

batistabus wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:30 pm
Michsi wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:55 pm
He wasn't happy about potentially being surpassed by Goten and Trunks when he found out the kids could go SSj and he was fairly eager to fight Dabura. Those are the biggest examples and his cockiness against Boo shows he does have an underlying saiyan side when it comes to taking down an opponent.
Even if Gohan doesn't love fighting, he still had to work hard to get where he is. To have two kids get to that level so easily feels unfair (and serves as a great comedic punchline). I'm not saying Gohan hates every second that he is fighting; he's an exceptional guy with a positive outlook.

Against Boo, he's confident in his power. Earlier in the arc, Great Saiyaman showed us that Gohan likes to feel "cool", and I think his attitude against Boo is a further expression of that.
Kagari wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:54 pm
He was excited during the Zen Exhibition contests, etc. It's all right there in the text.
Not in the manga. Toei appeals to what is popular much more than Toriyama does, and the fans want to see Gohan as a fighter.

I'd like to hear more of your thoughts if you have them, but I've said all I have to say on the matter. This conversation is pretty off-topic, and I'd rather read peoples thoughts about Chapter 58.
Toyo also likes to appeal to 'what is popular'. Why else retcon his own take on UI and make "Omen" a separate form when it never was. As for the chapter, I already mentioned it earlier but it's too derivative of what came before. The same old song and dance to make Goku look good while vaulting up the power ceiling to another unnecessary gap. Between regressive character writing and overdone tropes we've seen countless times... it's hard to care. Toyo could have at least tried to mix things up a bit rather than create such a predictable outcome.

User avatar
JulieYBM
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 13603
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:25 pm
Contact:

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:45 pm

The chapter really should've opened with Gokuu attacking Moro directly and having the others sense his return, thus their spirits rising and their performances improving. This way they could finish their own fights and we could begin Gokuu's battle with Moro by having him already showing off how strong he's become.
She/Her | Popsicle Princess

User avatar
Koitsukai
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1400
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:46 pm

The last ending of the anime had Goku and Gohan together and I remember people, myself included, believing Gohan was getting a bigger role, and perhaps even teaming up with Goku. I think they actually ended up never crossing paths during the tournament lol

Kagari wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:38 pm
Why else retcon his own take on UI and make "Omen" a separate form when it never was. As for the chapter, I already mentioned it earlier but it's too derivative of what came before. The same old song and dance to make Goku look good while vaulting up the power ceiling to another unnecessary gap. Between regressive character writing and overdone tropes we've seen countless times... it's hard to care. Toyo could have at least tried to mix things up a bit rather than create such a predictable outcome.
He did, didn't he? this take on omen looks more like what the anime portrayed than what the manga did.

User avatar
Kagari
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 851
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:11 pm
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kagari » Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:56 pm

Lionel wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:36 pm
Kagari wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:15 pm
Lionel wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:05 pm


Yeah, I mean a collaborative team-up with Gohan could provide some additional unique choreographic dynamics. Goku seemed accepting of working alongside Hit to combat Jiren during the Tournament of Power but when it comes to his own son he retracts himself and seems uncomfortable with involving him. I understand Gohan has been written as disliking fights, earnest life-and-death fights that is, since mid DBZ but he seems to have finally woken up to the realities of needing to be prepared for threats to his family and homeworld.

I would like for the Gohan role to develop for him as a more consistent triagonist. Toriyama already pulled the carpet out from under his feet back in the Buu arc despite building up his potential and the prospect of the younger generation assuming the mantle of protector. From there he took it one step further by adding insult to injury in having Vegeta appropriate Gohan's trademark rage-induced power spikes in the BOG arc. A third slot set aside for Gohan is the least that could be done for him now, in my opinion.

Michsi: I admit the Piccolo fan in me was also ecstatic to see him hanging in there alongside Gohan. It's believable that he could close the gap some if he trained directly with Gohan and they mutually benefited one another. Piccolo's own potential as the famed "Child of Katatz" doesn't get as much recognition, I think.
The anime actually was doing just that following the Trunks arc and to be honest it was a breath of fresh air. Gohan's relationships with both Goku and the other members of the cast just feel more organic than having Vegeta interact with all of them. He's also the only one of the kids allowed to really do anything both before and now so it would make sense to continue giving him those type of front facing roles, yes. This is where I wish Toyotaro actually cared more about character writing because, for all the anime's faults, they still managed at least some of that.
I'll be honest, I think the anime might have better ideas than the manga in a lot of respects. They introduced the concept of a semi-consistent weaponised Mafuba in the TOP. Kaioken was reeintroduced after being glaringly, dare I say criminally, absent for the latter half of DBZ. They tried laying down a more thoroughly inspected return-to-form subplot for Gohan instead of just having it get carried out off-screen. Zamasu's fall from grace was elaborated on with a direct encounter against Goku and his frustrations with the role of the Kaioshins in the universe.

The final executions of a lot of these ideas and more leaves things to be desired, but they were good in theory. Now with Gohan, I think the Z-fighters actually gravitate more towards him than Vegeta, perhaps even Goku, for leadership. Goku is typically the premiere powerhouse of the arc that everyone depends on but Gohan seems to take a more concerned interest in the strategic affairs of the group. We saw this with his trying to keep the U7 group together for the sake of mutual protection and preserving their numbers.
Overall the anime staff did tend to have a better understanding of series concepts and characterization, IMO. I would forgive a lot of the manga's shortcomings if it shared in these benefits - especially creating a greater focus on individual character writing.

With Gohan, you're absolutely right and Toei taking those ideas and moving forward with him felt like a natural extension of his character. The manga has some of this but only on the surface level - and mostly with Piccolo. Which, yeah it's nice that Toyo has Gohan fighting more strategically, but I feel like there needs to be more than just fancy fighting and "yeah he's still training and getting stronger."
JulieYBM wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:37 pm
Tomioka Atsuhiro's take on Gokuu and Gohan's relationship is a lot more refreshing than just seeing Toyo-tarou pair him together with Piccolo again. I'm really hoping the cartoon doesn't capitulate to the comic by trying to copy Toyo-tarou's ideology on this one once it continues.
Absolutely. One of the positives of the Super anime was Toei staff's understanding of Goku's family and friend relationships. The manga has really struggled to do this, at least on a consistent level.
Koitsukai wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:46 pm
The last ending of the anime had Goku and Gohan together and I remember people, myself included, believing Gohan was getting a bigger role, and perhaps even teaming up with Goku. I think they actually ended up never crossing paths during the tournament lol

Kagari wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:38 pm
Why else retcon his own take on UI and make "Omen" a separate form when it never was. As for the chapter, I already mentioned it earlier but it's too derivative of what came before. The same old song and dance to make Goku look good while vaulting up the power ceiling to another unnecessary gap. Between regressive character writing and overdone tropes we've seen countless times... it's hard to care. Toyo could have at least tried to mix things up a bit rather than create such a predictable outcome.
He did, didn't he? this take on omen looks more like what the anime portrayed than what the manga did.
They did for the rest of his time in the tournament after Piccolo was KO'd.

And yeah he did. I just went back and re-read the manga ToP pages. "Omen" was never a separate form.

User avatar
JulieYBM
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 13603
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:25 pm
Contact:

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Mar 20, 2020 7:05 pm

I still wish the anime would do compilation films with new animation for the Dragon Ball Super arcs. A a compilation film to try out a few new ideas would definitely give them a shot at trying out different character combinations for scenes.
She/Her | Popsicle Princess

User avatar
Noitsnothim
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 481
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:27 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Noitsnothim » Fri Mar 20, 2020 7:09 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 4:43 pm
Noitsnothim wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 3:53 pm
Kepiaschkz wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 5:38 am



On the contrary, it makes perfect sense. The incomplete version is much easier to master than the full one. So it's common sense that Goku would FIRST manage to tap into omen at will before managing taping into the silver haired version as well. It's called progression.
Remember that Goku training also got interrupted because angels rules etc..
Nothing tell us Goku didn't need extra months worth of training with Angel to master Migate UI.




And yet, right after the TOP, where Goku taped into the full UI, Goku best form was just SSBlue which is even dozens of times weaker than Omen and this during a full arc ( Broly).

It may be not how Dragon Ball worked until now, but now it is. And God bless that change of formula because there is no more boring kind of writing that sticking for years to a same formulaic outline.

To be honest, both versions of UI were waaaaay too over-powered to become right after his introduction a regular form.
Thank you !!! that Godvegeta guy is annoying
You seriously need to drop down this attitude right now. If anyone is objectively annoying here now, it is YOU!

I attacked you on what you said. You attacked me on my character. That is much worse!

That’s all i’m going to say.
You can get on your knees and suck my dick now (I WAS RIGHT)

User avatar
The Undying
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 282
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:47 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Fri Mar 20, 2020 7:51 pm

There's an alarming amount of people in this thread misunderstanding how Ultra Instinct works.

First of all, Goku never "masters" Ultra Instinct in the manga. Ever. Whis flat-out said so. Temporarily obtaining the completed version of Ultra Instinct, not being able to wield it properly and then forgetting how to tap into it doesn't instantly mean he'll re-obtain said version once he figures out how to use it at will, especially if he hasn't mastered it.

Secondly, "Sign" is no more or less of a separate form here than it was in the Tournament of Power. It was also already named in that arc (the dialogue literally uses the character for "Omen/Sign"), but people appear to conveniently forget that. It was used as the initial stage of the form back then, and Goku described it as the initial stage in this chapter. There's no difference.
Lionel wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:15 pm
They didn't need to pedestal Goku yet again at that moment when we know he's going to predictably shine against Moro.
They absolutely did.

Moro is the main antagonist. Moro is also a lot stronger than in his previous encounter with Goku. It's obvious that Goku won't be "shining" against him right away, and even if he does, it's going to be short-lived.

There's a reason Toriyama often had Goku taking over for secondary protagonists in the original manga - you can't adequately show the growth of these characters if you're not demonstrating how they can succeed where the supporting cast fails. That's what Saganbo is for.
Formerly Marlowe89.

User avatar
FortuneSSJ
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5362
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:07 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by FortuneSSJ » Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:25 pm

-Chapter 58-

Boring chapter and Goku, the main character, was the reason for it ironically.

I don't like how he was the one to beat the last 5 Moro's minions.

When Vegeta said in chapter 51 that Saganbo is nothing special without Moro help and even Trunks could beat him, I was expecting that to be foreshadowing for Trunks to actually do it. But things turn out be really different from that and the kids, who are supposed to be teens, got sidelined again.

I also don't like how Goku can use UI sign anytime now and how Toyotaro approachs the UI.
The emotionless expression Goku had it in the anime and the lack of talk symbolizes better what Ui is supposed to be.

UI always felt more like a transformation than a technique, especially the needless and ugly white haired version. Having UI Goku acting normally and not enphasing those little details, just make it losing its appeal. It's no different from all the other forms.

I'm also burnt out of Toyotaro homages. Krillin asking Goku when he was about to use IT if he can beat Moro and Goku's answer, isn't much different from their talk when he woke up from his heart disease in Cell arc. I already read the original manga and rewatched the anime countless times. Give me new things.

And with that I really hope Vegeta and/or Merus are the ones to give the final blow.
A world without Dragon Ball is just meh.

Post Reply