"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Sun May 24, 2020 4:33 pm

emperior wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 4:20 pm
One of these will probably have an impact in the future and be referenced again, and that’s Merus being an Angel as Toyotaro has already telegraphed that he will end up being erased and this was all Toriyama’s idea.
Merus taking care of things will honestly kill this arc for me. They've established that Buu can seal him away, They've established that Vegeta can counter his magic, and they've established that Goku can now use UI Sign at will. Instead of having these deities save their behinds for a THIRD time, have those 3 work together to take him down. Goku can fight him physically, while Vegeta stands back and uses his technique to drain him and prevent him from taking energy, just as Buu prepares his sealing method. Merus doing everything is the most anticlimactic thing I can think of.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Femme Fatale Kikaza » Sun May 24, 2020 5:04 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 4:33 pm
emperior wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 4:20 pm
One of these will probably have an impact in the future and be referenced again, and that’s Merus being an Angel as Toyotaro has already telegraphed that he will end up being erased and this was all Toriyama’s idea.
Merus taking care of things will honestly kill this arc for me. They've established that Buu can seal him away, They've established that Vegeta can counter his magic, and they've established that Goku can now use UI Sign at will. Instead of having these deities save their behinds for a THIRD time, have those 3 work together to take him down. Goku can fight him physically, while Vegeta stands back and uses his technique to drain him and prevent him from taking energy, just as Buu prepares his sealing method. Merus doing everything is the most anticlimactic thing I can think of.
Same. I feel like Merus shouldn't be killed off because it would seem too predictable. This angel in training thing can easily be writing material and I'd rather they not kill him off against someone Beerus could hakai if he lifted his claw a bit.

Especially if this threat could be dealt with by Goku and Vegeta with assistance from others. I'd rather they save an angelic death for a later arc further down the line, when they introduce more powerful God of destruction tier threats after Moro's defeated. No doubt Goku and Vegeta will get smacked with more threats that Beerus should be dealing with and that they'll write ways for him not to.

I'd rather they take a break from Whis, Beerus or Merus being in the spotlight after this arc has concluded, giving Vegeta and Goku time for the next inevitable psychos that comes rolling about. With the existence of the multiverse, I wouldn't be shocked if more out of universe villains show up at some point.

Also, how are they gonna have the rest of the cast deal with these threats? Like they're gonna need to give B+ class fighters like Gohan, 17 and 18 have something so they don't get wiped out by GoD tier threats. They can deal with the minions of the villains, but when it comes to the higher tier villains themselves they stand no chance. Empowered Saganbo was wrecking them and I'd rather they not get into a cycle of waiting for Goku and Vegeta to touchdown and save their asses again while Gohan and co are legit crashing into buildings trying not to die.

I kinda hope that Whis's promise to the Grand Priest remains a factor for the series, and if Merus isn't killed off during this arc that it'll always be something in the back of our minds to. I feel that when there is a threat even Beerus can't deal with and can't win against for whatever reason, that should be when either Merus or Whis do anything physical. Tori and Taro I'm sure can WRITE tons of things for Beerus not to deal with things or be unable to do so.

Whis seems confident that as long as Beerus is known to be the top destroyer and that he can deal with things for them, that everything will be alright. Changing that would probably be a factor for someone dying.

If this were to happen, I'd simply would prefer Merus to feel like intervening when even the god of destruction can't deal with the threat, but simply have Whis stop him from doing so as to keep the promise to the Grand Minister and ultimately choose to commit suicide by joining the fight and either killing or incapacitating the person long enough for someone else to do the job.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kagari » Sun May 24, 2020 5:49 pm

emperior wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 4:20 pm
Kagari wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 1:48 pm
MajinMan wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:00 am
I’m honestly not too impressed with the last 6 or so chapters. Something about this fight with Moro and his goons just seems off. It’s like a never ending cycle of the same things repeating itself, and hopefully the arc ends in the next 4 or so chapters.
It doesn't help that Moro himself is paper-thin. He doesn't have any real chemistry with any character in the main cast unlike previous antagonists, and the story itself lacks the base through thread of actual narrative for them (the cast) as well. They're all just there because they read the script at this point. Goku, the main character, can be removed from the entire arc and not much would change. That's a huge problem.
Buu too didn’t have much chemistry with the characters, but he was interesting and what was happening around him was even more interesting.

So I don’t think Moro’s characterization is the only problem. This arc is basically a very long Toei movie and it’s such a shame because it will probably end up being the longest Dragon Ball arc in manga format if we go by page count. Instead of wasting time on Earthlings vs Prisoners or other time-wasting stuff, Toyotaro should have tried to characterize Moro better and also build up a better, more genuine rivalry between him and Goku and Vegeta.

The latest chapters have been fun though. Even if it’s the weakest Super storyline thus far, at least now that we’re in the climax it’s getting quite interesting in my opinion.

It’s undoubtedly a semi-filler arc though. The only stuff which doesn’t feel like filler is Vegeta going to Yardrat, Merus being an Angel and Goku training with him.

And only one of these will probably have an impact in the future and be referenced again, and that’s Merus being an Angel as Toyotaro has already telegraphed that he will end up being erased and this was all Toriyama’s idea.
Vegeta going to Yardrat to learn a technique he likely won't use again knowing Toyo... still feels like filler. Same with Merus training Goku since it really amounted to nothing more than Goku losing and brute forcing a "form" he shouldn't have gone backwards to to begin with. As a whole, Goku has been treated like a prop and nothing more in this arc (and DBS manga, really) so I'm not really surprised that nothing really changed for him there. But if you can't even write the main character well enough, why are you even here?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by EGonzo » Sun May 24, 2020 8:59 pm

I'm not really liking this arc. It was full of potential up until the ending of the New Namek part, then it just dropped in quality really bad and took this filler-ish tone about it.

The worst part about it is how Toyo made UI so lackluster. Whatever anyone's opinion on the anime are, it made UI memorable every time it came up. From the first battle with Jiren, to the sliding kamehameka against Kefla, and then Mastered, it gave the transformation "moments", and the manga doesn't have any of that. There's nothing memorable about manga UI

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Sun May 24, 2020 9:02 pm

emperior wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 4:20 pm
Buu too didn’t have much chemistry with the characters, but he was interesting and what was happening around him was even more interesting.
That's the thing. Boo had a similar lack of interpersonal connection with the other characters, but what made Boo a good antagonist was primarily him forcing those characters to adapt through less conventional strategies and solutions than normal.

Villains don't need to be "deep", but they do need to fit the story's themes and serve as an obstacle for the protagonists. I don't think Moro's necessarily doing a bad job there, but we've definitely had more interesting baddies in the series.
emperior wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 4:20 pm
It’s undoubtedly a semi-filler arc though.
I'm still not really getting that impression. I feel like even with Goku "unlearning" the lesson about strength that he was supposed to have learned from his fight with Jiren, we're still getting more progression/bonding from the main characters overall (especially Vegeta) and worldbuilding here than, say, the Zamasu arc.

I'd say the Earth subplot is definitely when it took a nosedive in quality though, and the beginning wasn't particularly strong either.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Tai Lung » Sun May 24, 2020 10:17 pm

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 4:19 am
Then fast forward to the ToP and everyone says that it looks like the KK. But it's on top this Perfected Blue. And there is no double aura (Toei did this one right tbh). So knowing that Power stressing is similar to the KK I could only assume that this was a 'Grade 2 Blue'.

Manga's Evolution also seemed different. No muscle gain, no visible pupils, different aura (probably the same color as normal blue) and again on top of this 'perfected' blue.

I get that these forms were the Manga's counterparts, but the Manga did an awful job presenting them for me. So much so that I considered them entirely different forms....
I agree but I also think that the manga versions look horrible in comparison ... especially vegeta

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Sun May 24, 2020 11:42 pm

The Undying wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 9:02 pm
I'm still not really getting that impression. I feel like even with Goku "unlearning" the lesson about strength that he was supposed to have learned from his fight with Jiren, we're still getting more progression/bonding from the main characters overall (especially Vegeta) and worldbuilding here than, say, the Zamasu arc.
Goku didn't "unlearn" the lesson about strength, it's just a different context. Emptying your mind and staying calm when you are in a superior position in the fight (Vs Jiren) is different from doing the same thing when the enemy is kicking your ass and making fun of how he didn't even need to worry (Vs Moro). And the use of the UI does not prevent Goku from showing natural sensations. Pain and struggle are physical reactions. Some people think he is some kind of master at using Ultra Instinct just because he learned to use the Omen version at will.

And he didn't even use the same principle as that used in ToP. Against Jiren he overloaded his body to the point that he could break it, in the last chapter he just powered up in a situation where he was already at his limit and without options

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Mon May 25, 2020 12:30 am

With the recent chapter I can already for certain picture that. Sorry Vegeta it ain't gonna be this time.
Femme Fatale Kikaza wrote:
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It feels really dumb. Like Vegeta, you're in your forties, why are you acting like a baby? Goku is trying to not kill himself and he's being upset about using a technique that is useful because Goku does it too? The universe doesn't have time for it and neither do the earth's fighters. Vegeta is a prideful asshole, but he's a grown one too, this isn't the time for this nonsense. I know you can't have Vegeta and Goku using Instant transmission but can Vegeta not act like a prideful jackass about it? What is this, the Cell arc?
Have you begun to watch/read Super these days? Because since episode one there's a whole debate regarding Vegeta regressing from his final act Boo arc self to his middle Cell arc self in Super.

At first I though it was stupid for Vegeta to learn IT, but I agree that what is worse is him refusing to use the technique again because of his ego.
Remember when he trained on 300x gravity because Kakarot trained under 100x? Just make Vegeta learn a perfected version of IT (maybe without the need of using his fingers tips) it would cause no warm at all and he could even use in-battle.
TheNingen wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 11:30 am
More and more as the manga goes on, I realize that Toyo cannot write interesting stories or stick to established concepts well at all. I wish Toriyama had picked someone else.
You and the vast majority of the fan base for sure. Really I think the only thing Toyotaro does better than Toei is at least caring to explain the characters battle powers, but not for a good margin as he messes up in the Future Trunks arc.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Mon May 25, 2020 1:07 am

Noah wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 12:30 am
With the recent chapter I can already for certain picture that. Sorry Vegeta it ain't gonna be this time.
Vegeta did beat Toppo and Black later on, so that picture is two thirds wrong. I do agree that Vegeta isn't winning this alone, just as no one has won a solo final since Super started, and even as far back as against Kid Buu. I think Vegeta will beat Moro in their one on one fight, but what happens once 7-3 gets involved is anyone's guess. I just hope they don't have Merus show up out of nowhere and kill him, as that'll be as anti-climactic as things can get.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Mon May 25, 2020 1:42 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 11:42 pm
Goku didn't "unlearn" the lesson about strength, it's just a different context. Emptying your mind and staying calm when you are in a superior position in the fight (Vs Jiren) is different from doing the same thing when the enemy is kicking your ass and making fun of how he didn't even need to worry (Vs Moro).
Goku was patently in an inferior position in both fights. During the Tournament of Power, his entire universe was on the verge of being erased in an instant.

However, I don't entirely disagree. I don't think, for example, that his use of Ultra Instinct went "backwards" like a few people are seemingly claiming - if anything it actually progressed from the previous arc, where he had such a limited understanding of the technique that he could barely maintain it for longer than a few minutes; something Whis readily commented on after his completed UI expired.

The problem is that it's largely a thematic retread, not so much that it doesn't make sense within-universe.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Mon May 25, 2020 7:40 am

The Undying wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 9:02 pm
emperior wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 4:20 pm
It’s undoubtedly a semi-filler arc though.
I'm still not really getting that impression. I feel like even with Goku "unlearning" the lesson about strength that he was supposed to have learned from his fight with Jiren, we're still getting more progression/bonding from the main characters overall (especially Vegeta) and worldbuilding here than, say, the Zamasu arc.

I'd say the Earth subplot is definitely when it took a nosedive in quality though, and the beginning wasn't particularly strong either.
Zamasu arc is quite the filler arc too, especially the anime version.

BUT we have to acknowledge the vast amount of lore and world building introduced during that arc.
We got to know how the timelines really work, that Gods can travel through them with the time rings, that it’s forbidden to time travel and to alter time, that the Kaioshin-in-training have healing powers, that Potara has a time limit on those who aren’t full fledged Kaioshins, that Gods of Destruction have their lives linked with their Kaioshin, Grand Priest was introduced, we saw Zeno annihilating an entire timeline, we saw what happened to Future Trunks etcetera.

Basically the arc had plenty of stuff that explained better how the whole deity system of Dragon Ball works. And in the manga Goku mastered Blue, actually used Mafuba, used Hakai too. Vegetto was explicitly stated to be around Beerus’ level.
This is not stuff you can write out of the story and keep it the same as it was the arc before, thus the arc wasn’t filler.
And it managed to expand the story in fewer chapters than the current Moro arc.

While, what new lore stuff and world building did Moro arc really introduce? It only expanded upon how the Galactic Patrol works, introduced the concept of an Angel-in-training and also revealed that the Angels who can’t stay neutral get erased. And it finally revealed Yardrat and the Yardratians and introduced spirit control which is just a different way to say Ki control, basically.

That’s too little in too many chapters. That’s why it’s like almost all filler. We could virtually remove most of the arc and nothing would have changed since Broly.
Goku’s power progression is basically artificial.
Vegeta’s technique may be just something which works on Moro and his power increase seems very vague.

Resurrection F too was as filler as this is, until the Tournament of Power made it feel less fillerish.
The only non filler stuff RoF had was Whis pointing out the flaws of Goku and Vegeta, the time rewinding powers of Whis and Super Saiyan Blue.
And, even though it was fillerish, it was just a 90 minutes movie. There’s really no comparison with Moro.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Mon May 25, 2020 9:29 am

This chapter:

1. Good fight choreography. Saw some sequences never done in Dragonball before. An example would be Moro using video games physics, slamming Goku in the ground, making him bounce off it, and then stepping on him. That was brutal in the right ways.

2. The art sucked for the most part. I don't know what's going on with this chapter, but there were so many places where proportions were completely off.

3. "Don't worry, Kakarot, this arc is filler". That's what those panels say to me and I am not pleased.

4. Vegeta's character has always been that he gets stronger by banging his head against a wall until that wall breaks. When other people go around the wall, he keeps banging his head against it. Sometimes he gets a concussion and passes out for a while, but when he wakes up he starts banging his head against it some more. I'm glad Toyotaro played that forward here. The Yardratians aren't impressed because he learned it all quickly, they're impressed by how he got it all so quickly. The "how" being that he pushed himself to the brink to do it.

Of the two, Goku is the genius.

5. Why are we back to Goku forcing powerups when he learned 2 arcs ago that doing that is bad and won't get him past his limit? Is it that when his back is against the wall he gets desperate? I'm hoping this is addressed. Or is Whis saying Goku realized that fighting reserved won't get anywhere in this situation so he's going to go all out meant to be the explanation? If it is, then why would Goku do that when he knows he needs to do the opposite to get true ultra instinct. This needs to be addressed going forward.

Overall I enjoyed this month's installment. Vegeta has a lot of buildup behind him, and I'm expecting it to not pay off.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Mon May 25, 2020 11:09 am

TKA wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 9:29 am
Vegeta has a lot of buildup behind him, and I'm expecting it to not pay off.
As excited as I am for whatever he has up his sleeve, Super does have a tendency of building things up only for them to fall on their face in favor of "subverting expectations". I think Vegeta's role and the ending will either be extremely good and blow us away, or so bad we try to forget this arc ever existed.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Mon May 25, 2020 11:29 am

The Undying wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 1:42 am
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 11:42 pm
Goku didn't "unlearn" the lesson about strength, it's just a different context. Emptying your mind and staying calm when you are in a superior position in the fight (Vs Jiren) is different from doing the same thing when the enemy is kicking your ass and making fun of how he didn't even need to worry (Vs Moro).
Goku was patently in an inferior position in both fights. During the Tournament of Power, his entire universe was on the verge of being erased in an instant.

However, I don't entirely disagree. I don't think, for example, that his use of Ultra Instinct went "backwards" like a few people are seemingly claiming - if anything it actually progressed from the previous arc, where he had such a limited understanding of the technique that he could barely maintain it for longer than a few minutes; something Whis readily commented on after his completed UI expired.

The problem is that it's largely a thematic retread, not so much that it doesn't make sense within-universe.
Yeah, but I'm talking from the moment he was using UI Omen. Against Jiren he was always in a superior position with this form. He received a direct hit that did no damage and easily avoided all attacks. There's even a comparison between UIO Goku's stance against Jiren and Moro


By the time Jiren powered up, Goku activated his silver haired form, so again he was at an advantage. Against Moro he saw all his efforts to be futile, the goat even mocked him for that. In a inferior position, it is natural that his emotions arise and he looks for other alternatives, since the calm route did not work

I can see why some people complained about Goku's attitudes in this chapter, but I definitely don't see how the concept of the technique was thrown out the window. Goku did not unlearn previous lessons and the UI did not become like an SSJ form.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Mon May 25, 2020 12:26 pm

To me this is a wait and revisit chapter with, possibly, the exception of Goku.

Goku's arc here is to get closer to dominating Ultra Instinct, which he did. This technique(hated how Merus called it a form) shouldn't be achieved easily. So while it might seem Goku didn't progress he did, a lot.
This looks extremely underwhelming but fares for a far more "realistic" and interesting progression than if Goku got it already.

Another aspect is that Toyotaro might be subverting the "stale for Goku" recurring plot. Instead Goku was the one stalling for Vegeta.

Regarding Vegeta, his stake and path are by far the most interesting. Besides the usual save the day stakes, he procures redemption in the eyes of the Nameks.
His path as well isn't just another power up but a different approach which he procured himself.

My concern is if Vegeta doesn't finish this, might paint a very boring picture depending on the developments.

Finally Merus and the Angels. Nothing needs to happen right away but the seeds have been planted. This is something that needs to be built, otherwise Merus is nothing more than a one time teacher.

My thoughts on this arc have been mixed, there's a lot that could have been done better. It can still close out on a positive note.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Mon May 25, 2020 12:52 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 11:09 am
TKA wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 9:29 am
Vegeta has a lot of buildup behind him, and I'm expecting it to not pay off.
As excited as I am for whatever he has up his sleeve, Super does have a tendency of building things up only for them to fall on their face in favor of "subverting expectations". I think Vegeta's role and the ending will either be extremely good and blow us away, or so bad we try to forget this arc ever existed.
Average expectation: Vegeta arrives and use his super new move/strategy to win. You'll see this in Toei's Dragonball a lot.

Learned expectation: Vegeta arrives and fails because this is how Toriyama writes. Subversively.

I'm guessing Vegeta either fails, or semi-succeeds and then Goku does his thing.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon May 25, 2020 1:02 pm

TKA wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 12:52 pm
Matches Malone wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 11:09 am
TKA wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 9:29 am
Vegeta has a lot of buildup behind him, and I'm expecting it to not pay off.
As excited as I am for whatever he has up his sleeve, Super does have a tendency of building things up only for them to fall on their face in favor of "subverting expectations". I think Vegeta's role and the ending will either be extremely good and blow us away, or so bad we try to forget this arc ever existed.
Average expectation: Vegeta arrives and use his super new move/strategy to win. You'll see this in Toei's Dragonball a lot.

Learned expectation: Vegeta arrives and fails because this is how Toriyama writes. Subversively.

I'm guessing Vegeta either fails, or semi-succeeds and then Goku does his thing.
Oh man, I don't think a lot of fans would like that.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Mon May 25, 2020 1:21 pm

TKA wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 12:52 pm
Vegeta arrives and fails because this is how Toriyama writes. Subversively.
My issue isn't with my expectations not being met, As I like to be surprised, it's with the constant build up that doesn't amount to anything. That's not subverting expectations, it's bad writing. In the original manga, the build up always had payoff. When a villain was said to be a monster, he was that and then some. When a hero trained and was said to be stronger than before, it was displayed in full force.

In Super for example, we're told about how strong Hit is, but because of tournament rules we never get to see it. This wasn't surprising, it was annoying, it made feel like I wasted my time. They dug poor Freeza out of the dirt so that he could "challenge" Goku and Vegeta, only to get his ass kicked twice before Whis made things even worse.
Lord Beerus wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 1:02 pm
Oh man, I don't think a lot of fans would like that.
No, but I'd still take it over Merus saving the day, which seems to be what they're building up to.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon May 25, 2020 1:24 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 1:21 pm
Lord Beerus wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 1:02 pm
Oh man, I don't think a lot of fans would like that.
No, but I'd still take it over Merus saving the day, which seems to be what they're building up to.
Fuck, if that happens, that would kill the arc for me.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kagari » Mon May 25, 2020 1:29 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 1:02 pm
TKA wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 12:52 pm
Matches Malone wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 11:09 am


As excited as I am for whatever he has up his sleeve, Super does have a tendency of building things up only for them to fall on their face in favor of "subverting expectations". I think Vegeta's role and the ending will either be extremely good and blow us away, or so bad we try to forget this arc ever existed.
Average expectation: Vegeta arrives and use his super new move/strategy to win. You'll see this in Toei's Dragonball a lot.

Learned expectation: Vegeta arrives and fails because this is how Toriyama writes. Subversively.

I'm guessing Vegeta either fails, or semi-succeeds and then Goku does his thing.
Oh man, I don't think a lot of fans would like that.
People have unrealistic expectations either way. The amount of people I've seen hyping this up as a "Vegeta win" is only going to lead to a path of disappointment. But personally I feel Vegeta beating Moro is kinda meaningless at this point. Other than to "check off a list" but that's even worse and no fan should want that... There's no real themes or chemistry between them and as much as people harp on RoF, it probably was the best chance for Vegeta to get a meaningful victory. Now though? Moro ain't shit compared to Freeza.

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