"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:26 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 1:01 pm
MCDaveG wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:59 am
how Pilaf turned to kid
Jiren, ToP MUI, Broly, fusion, Beerus, Quitela and some other hakaishin.
I very much agree with this line. More or less these characters in the Manga are in the same tier. So for the Manga it doesn't rly stand to say that Moro has surpassed them all. Same for Jiren, Gogeta, Broly etc.

Which is more evident in the anime but OK.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by MCDaveG » Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:28 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 1:01 pm
MCDaveG wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:59 am
how Pilaf turned to kid
For this one we actually got an answer. I don't remember what DBS chapter it was (I think it was like an addendum to a chapter), but when the androids where terrorizing the world, Gohan gathered the DBs and was about to wish for something important but the Pilaf Gang asked to be young again before him, and then Piccolo was killed somewhere.

And the power of the gods thing, to me is just to vaguely put Moro on a hakaishin level, which he must be. Toyo could've easily told us Moro is stronger than this and that hakaishin(we've met at least 3 up close), so they are probably saving accuracy for later but for now all we can say is he is somewhere up there with Jiren, ToP MUI, Broly, fusion, Beerus, Quitela and some other hakaishin.
Yeah sorry, I was actually talking about anime as mentioning GT and all...
Forgot that I am in manga thread, but I really wanted to adress the overall franchise across mediums.
But yeah, we got the explanation in Battle Of Gods and then got to actually see the hilarious part in the manga, but if the hard drives of DB Super Beerus arc burned in huge fire set up by deranged arsonist before airing, the only sad thing about that would be only the spent hours of work by the animators..
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Jun 07, 2020 11:53 am

Does anyone have the line where the manga is called promotional material?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Sun Jun 07, 2020 12:31 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 11:53 am
Does anyone have the line where the manga is called promotional material?
It was just assumed to be that based on how short the first few chapters were.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Sun Jun 07, 2020 12:37 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 11:53 am
Does anyone have the line where the manga is called promotional material?
There's always this VegettoEX's post that pretty much sums up everything.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Sun Jun 07, 2020 1:10 pm

So with that being said, forgive me for probably getting off topic, since the Moro arc is up and running (a promotion to Super, after its conclusion) isn't that evidence that the anime (main product) will continue?

I mean it would eventually (at least most people say so) but this gives a better idea as to how the franchise currently works and plays out. The Broly movie was also meant to promote Super was it not?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Sun Jun 07, 2020 1:19 pm

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 1:10 pm
So with that being said, forgive me for probably getting off topic, since the Moro arc is up and running (a promotion to Super, after its conclusion) isn't that evidence that the anime (main product) will continue?

I mean it would eventually (at least most people say so) but this gives a better idea as to how the franchise currently works and plays out. The Broly movie was also meant to promote Super was it not?
Think of it this way: The manga promotes the anime, while the anime promotes the movies, while the movies promote the manga, etc. Everything plays a part in everything's promotion. If you get into one part of Super, you're likely to get into the two other parts.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mister_Popo » Sun Jun 07, 2020 1:52 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 1:19 pm
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 1:10 pm
So with that being said, forgive me for probably getting off topic, since the Moro arc is up and running (a promotion to Super, after its conclusion) isn't that evidence that the anime (main product) will continue?

I mean it would eventually (at least most people say so) but this gives a better idea as to how the franchise currently works and plays out. The Broly movie was also meant to promote Super was it not?
Think of it this way: The manga promotes the anime, while the anime promotes the movies, while the movies promote the manga, etc. Everything plays a part in everything's promotion. If you get into one part of Super, you're likely to get into the two other parts.


Toriyama himself has stated there will be stuff in the manga that's not in the anime.
This story arc doesn't feel like a promotion for the anime to me.
I mean, the main protagonist in two years time hasn't made a lot of progression, in the sense he's still stuck in Omen and hasn't come close to mastering UI. Storywise things are being stretched to the maximum to keep us busy.
A lot is being written but at the same time nothing is being written.

I think everything is promotional: manga, anime and movies.
The fact we still get new DB in the first place, is no longer a question of utter creative liberty.
But they could easily outmatch Supers first round with enough preparation time.
If the anime returns, let's hope they have invested enough in preparing a descent product for that medium, in stead of having wasted two years sitting on their asses for the manga to take a head start, which would be a horrible descision, as it's not even the same continuity to begin with.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Sun Jun 07, 2020 2:09 pm

Mister_Popo wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 1:52 pm
A lot is being written but at the same time nothing is being written.

They could easily outmatch Supers first round with enough preparation time.
Despite starting strong, it seems like we've been in the same situation for months now, nothing's moving. I really hope Vegeta's fight will push things forward in the next chapter. What I'm afraid is going to happen is both he and Moro's fight will just be a "warm up", only to say they'll use their "full power" on the last page, making us wait another month for something major to happen.

They'd have to be a special kind of incompetent to make something as bad as Super 1.0.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:29 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 2:09 pm
Mister_Popo wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 1:52 pm
A lot is being written but at the same time nothing is being written.

They could easily outmatch Supers first round with enough preparation time.
Despite starting strong, it seems like we've been in the same situation for months now, nothing's moving. I really hope Vegeta's fight will push things forward in the next chapter. What I'm afraid is going to happen is both he and Moro's fight will just be a "warm up", only to say they'll use their "full power" on the last page, making us wait another month for something major to happen.

They'd have to be a special kind of incompetent to make something as bad as Super 1.0.
Uhm, Moro already is at full power. He used it to defeat Kakarotto in the latest manga chapter. Now Vegeta has gone SSJ Blue Evolution aswell. And we all know Vegeta is no person to hold back. Especially not against the likes of Moro, who is 1, pure evil, and 2, Vegeta still has a bone to pick with him.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by supersaiyandoctor » Sun Jun 07, 2020 11:45 pm

I'm sure it's probably been asked already but has there been any word on how much longer this arc has left? Looking at the amount of chapters and volumes, it's likely to be the longest arc of the manga.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Mon Jun 08, 2020 12:40 am

supersaiyandoctor wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 11:45 pm
I'm sure it's probably been asked already but has there been any word on how much longer this arc has left?
No one's said anything yet, but I think it could end in November, while the next arc starts and is announced at Jump Festa in December.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by pepd » Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:26 am

ekrolo2 wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 11:53 am
Does anyone have the line where the manga is called promotional material?
Here:
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 1:10 pm
(a promotion to Super, after its conclusion) isn't that evidence that the anime (main product) will continue?
Joke aside, maybe not from a quality or author approval point of view, but from a commercial point of view, probably it is considered promotional material to the movies, merch and anime

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by MCDaveG » Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:54 am

Well, people are asking if manga is promotional material or not and what is the main vehicle for Dragon Ball.
I can tell you pretty safely, that it indeed is a promotional material for reasons that I also won't be buying the manga...
If you start to read it from start to finish, you have BOG arc and it should continue with Freeza arc but wait for it...
It was cut! because the manga had to promote the anime in a magazine and editors probably thought, that people won't be interested in a story they saw half year ago on television. So we have half the movie adapted as promo in magazine, unfinished and just mentioned like a joke on one page drawing, that the story was left out. Imagine this happening in the original manga from Toriyama, but this can't happen in the main material, because it doesn't make sense... This already is a thing that proves that it is promo material.
This cut happens again with Broly. Sure, the manga presumably adapts original Toriyama ideas and it is alternate retelling, but it was not conceived as the major part of this franchise but more like the Super Heroes manga running in magazine about video games.

In the past, sure Toriyama's DB was the original material and anime was adaptation.
But nowadays, Dragon Ball Super was the main media and the manga was just a means to promote and expand the brand elsewhere and with Moro saga, it continues to promote the brand beyond the conluded series, logically because it is cheaper than anime and everything else to produce.

One last thing, lot of people think that anime is actually promotional material, because the toys make the money and you have top pay for your time slot... Sure, you can get confused by this logic, but the toys are merchandise and not the main product. Byt this logic, you can say that Star Wars was huge advertising for the toys... but even if the merchandise can make more then a motion picture, it accompanies the product and brings in more money than the product itself. If Dragon Ball Super was promo, then you will make the merchandise first and advertise it later to boost sales of the merchandise. It is just the weird Japanese way of how things works that you have to fund a series on screen, so you sell the music used in the show and you have sponsors.

Long story short, this manga is promotional material.
Aaaand, I won't be buying it, because having a book on my shelf that is missing parts of the story that I have to watch elsewhere...
That is not a multimedia product like Shadows Of The Empire, where every media works on it's own, it is just promo from magazine, serialized in a tankobon to make a passive cash-in on the nostalgia. That of course would have been different if Toyble wen't back and drew the missing parts in the story, made some edits and it was released in tankobon as ''Hey, we have a sequel to the original manga for you to read it and put on shelf next to the original''. But no...
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mister_Popo » Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:08 am

MCDaveG wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:54 am

One last thing, lot of people think that anime is actually promotional material,


It is actually, marketeers are constantly thinking along about the exact content, giving passes to the writers in the process.

Sales were never this high, and apparently no anime investment is needed to promote stuff right away.
Right after ROF-movie however they couldn't throw in the anime faster than they did.
It did not feel like the DBS anime was a direct result of creative motives at all.
It was all to consolidate sales. If there is a commercial need for an anime, we get one, if it's not really needed right away, we have to wait ...
The stuff there is now, classic DB/DBZ/GT-merchandise along with the new Super-merchandise apparently sell well enough, in order to prevent a new 'creative' investment.

It's also promotional in the sense Toriyama and Toyotora don't have complete creative freedom.
It seems they have to follow the traits and tropes of the franchise all the time (nough Goku and Vegeta-time, enough battles ...), because of commercial reasons.
Toriyama already felt that pressure during the later days of the original manga, but it was nowhere as extreme as it's now.
If they would write a sequel simply with the intend 'fuck the fans, the transformations and the battles, i do it my way this time,' we probably be reading quite a different story.

That does not mean everything with promotional intend is automatically bad.
Broly was full with promotional intend, but still a very enjoyable movie.
The manga however, feels like it's underperforming for the moment, even taking notice of the fact it's promotional.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rebel Instinct » Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:35 am

ekrolo2 wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 11:53 am
Does anyone have the line where the manga is called promotional material?
MCDaveG wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:54 am
Well, people are asking if manga is promotional material or not and what is the main vehicle for Dragon Ball.
I can tell you pretty safely, that it indeed is a promotional material for reasons that I also won't be buying the manga...
Mister_Popo wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:08 am
The manga however, feels like it's underperforming for the moment, even taking notice of the fact it's promotional.
At the risk of opening up a horrifying can of worms here, I'm going to quote a couple of recent comments by VegettoEX that are relevant to this subject.
VegettoEX wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 10:50 am
The whole “main product” talking point (which I’m probably extremely responsible for?) is completely irrelevant and doesn’t even make sense to bring up with the current state of the franchise’s production. No single version is a complete product and I would wager the rights-holders have no idea what they’re doing or how to handle this unprecedented situation.
VegettoEX wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 4:50 pm
Miracles wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 3:54 pm
Interesting. I don't know where people get this "TOEI TV series is the prime product" for DBS.
They have been missing in action for what...A few years now?
Again, I'm not sure if I can or should take the credit for it, but people sure like to blame me for it when it doesn't line up with whatever point they're making!

My description of it that way was from back in 2015, when Dragon Ball Super was announced as a television series, and only as a television series. That was followed up by the announcement of the manga as a "comicalization"... a comic in a different-than-DB's-original magazine that sped through important details, skipped an entire story arc (for extremely legitimate reasons), and was not being drawn by the original author.

(Note that "comicalization" is the same expression they used for the Resurrection 'F' manga, though I admittedly can't necessarily speak to its specific usage throughout the entire history of all manga production. Also note that the news announcement we translated there about the manga starting up... uhh... ends by promoting the television series. I mean, of course it would, but still.)

Anyway, I stand by all that analysis and description I did back then and continue to do now, but it's just that... well, the Super anime didn't contain all the information it needed to contain to be a wholly-complete product (even if it's minor stuff like "Hey, uhh, so why are Pilaf & co. babies?"), the manga skips a whole story arc and film (oh yeah there's also a stand-alone film), and now the TV series is done and the manga is continuing off on its own.

Nothing like this has ever happened with Dragon Ball before, and none of my describing it in any of those ways is inherently a promotion or condemnation of its content: it just all is what it is. I think there's absolutely no longer anything productive in saying "main product" about any aspect of it; I did once, but no longer do based on what I know, what I've seen, and what the reality of the production is.
If VegettoEX deems it necessary to expand or elaborate on this subject, I imagine he'll do so. I, personally, have neither the gumption nor the patience to re-beat this dead horse myself. The only reason I've bothered to address this at all is because seeing this whole "promotional material" argument being used to devalue and denigrate the manga over the years is like metaphorical bamboo splinters under my nails and it's hard for me to just look the other way.

Either way, I'm done here for now. I leave this in (hopefully) more patient and/or tactful hands.
The post-Super fandom has ruined my love for Dragon Ball.
LightBing wrote:Most of what's going on here isn't speculation, it's judgments and conclusions. It's the reason why the manga thread is closed, it's the reason why VegettoEX warned people not to do what they are doing a few pages ago.

It's people riveting on their chance to feel validated in their opinion; to attack the "manga fans" (whatever that means) to prove themselves. My assumption is that everyone here is a Dragon Ball fan, capable of having discussions as equals and not segregate ourselves into little sectors trying to be the "superior faction", ignoring arguments, politeness and even common sense (like having all the information at hand).

Clearly I am mistaken.

I wish we were having fun making up theories or cracking jokes.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mister_Popo » Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:03 am

Indeed, there is no one and only official version of Super.
The franchise has not stated to date if there is a continuity that is more 'official' than the other.
That's why it does not make sense to state one of the conintuities is promotional for the other either.
It however does to say everything is promotional in that case, as the revival has very much been driven by marketeers, which is no secret.
The return of Freeza, Broly and the introduction of an evil Goku all very much sound like ideas whistled into Toriyamas ear.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:12 pm

Mister_Popo wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:03 am
Indeed, there is no one and only official version of Super.
The franchise has not stated to date if there is a continuity that is more 'official' than the other.
That's why it does not make sense to state one of the conintuities is promotional for the other either.
It however does to say everything is promotional in that case, as the revival has very much been driven by marketeers, which is no secret.
The return of Freeza, Broly and the introduction of an evil Goku all very much sound like ideas whistled into Toriyamas ear.
To be fair, for the past several years Shueisha DB's publisher has been saying the DBS manga is the "canonical" sequel to Dragon Ball. And they've been using the word more recently with regard to it in spite of them not using it for the anime. Plus the manga ignores elements from the anime that contradict the original manga run, like the inclusion of Gregory, or Ginyu coming back after Buu blew up the planet and Goku's wish to revive everyone "except the evil ones".

But a lot of people hate Toyotaro and dislike the idea that the DBS manga could somehow be a "proper" sequel to the DB manga despite the above reasons because of how it started.

I just see it like this. The DBS Manga is the sequel to the manga, the DBS anime is the sequel to the anime. DBS manga can't be a sequel to the anime because of the lack of some filler elements that permeate the DB anime, while the DBS anime can't be a sequel to the manga for the opposite reason.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mister_Popo » Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:27 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:12 pm
Mister_Popo wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:03 am
Indeed, there is no one and only official version of Super.
The franchise has not stated to date if there is a continuity that is more 'official' than the other.
That's why it does not make sense to state one of the conintuities is promotional for the other either.
It however does to say everything is promotional in that case, as the revival has very much been driven by marketeers, which is no secret.
The return of Freeza, Broly and the introduction of an evil Goku all very much sound like ideas whistled into Toriyamas ear.
To be fair, for the past several years Shueisha DB's publisher has been saying the DBS manga is the "canonical" sequel to Dragon Ball. And they've been using the word more recently with regard to it in spite of them not using it for the anime. Plus the manga ignores elements from the anime that contradict the original manga run, like the inclusion of Gregory, or Ginyu coming back after Buu blew up the planet and Goku's wish to revive everyone "except the evil ones".

But a lot of people hate Toyotaro and dislike the idea that the DBS manga could somehow be a "proper" sequel to the DB manga despite the above reasons because of how it started.

I just see it like this. The DBS Manga is the sequel to the manga, the DBS anime is the sequel to the anime. DBS manga can't be a sequel to the anime because of the lack of some filler elements that permeate the DB anime, while the DBS anime can't be a sequel to the manga for the opposite reason.

Hate is never appropiate for something concerning a comic or cartoon.
I think Toyotaro has done some good stuff in the past as well.
And he, just likte Toriyama, is bound and limited to the franchises traits and tropes.
I hope he somehow manages to save the Moro arc, which he started well, with a good ending.
For the past months it hasn't been too inspiring though.

DBS manga being the sequel of the DB manga and DBS anime being the sequel of DBZ makes sense.
That's why i wouldn't like to see a second part of DBS anime becoming a faithful adaptation of DBS manga.
Let those stories stay seperate continuities, as intended.

There is still some form of "canonical' overarching story (which Toriyama or the franchise still overviews), but that's helicopter view, not something that really exists at an in-universe level within the seperate continuities, which causes them to be nearly identical twins. It does not work like a classic manga-anime adaptation anymore.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by pepd » Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:13 pm

I had not stopped to contemplate that without RoF and Broly the manga is just incomplete, so maybe when they release a perfect edition they decide to make and add complete adaptations. There is half RoF ready and Toyotarō seemed interesting in doing Broly. There is hope!

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