"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Noah
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:30 pm

Another mediocre chapter, at this point is just a stapple. I would be impressed if actually turned out to be decent this time.

Funny how people enjoyed Vegeta little moment when they didn't realized that is RoF all over AGAIN!

Please, Toyotaro don't have the balls to have Vegeta dealing with the main threat all by himself, that's against DB norms for sure.

I do expect they to find a way to beat him together or something even more ludicrous like Goku pulling Ultra Instinct Super Saiyan out of his ass, cause ya know that's Toyotaro for ya.

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 9:25 am
You're missing the point there, mate. See, the problem is not Moro design (Cell/Hit with horns) but yes DB artstyle in general, I love this series, but it's bad when I think if you swap Goku and Gohan hairstyles no one would differ their characters and that's problem became more apparent in the Z portion of the manga, where Toriyama dropped the round eyes designs to have all characters having sharp eyes, also their noses always look the damn same one for every damn individual.
TKA wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:42 pm
Overall, this is the worst chapter of the arc, and the arc is already mediocre to bad (mind you, the manga at its worst is still better than everything else at their best). This is just awful, and shows that Toyotaro isn't anywhere near ready as a writer to take over. This whole thing is just one big dumb filler arc with all the hallmarks of bad fanfiction. Terrible.
Yeah, keep telling yourself that.
Matches Malone wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:00 pm
I noticed some are saying Vegeta telling Goku he's better than him is character regression, but I don't see it that way. Goku and Vegeta are constantly going back and forth with each other, it doesn't mean they don't respect each other. Goku even says Vegeta being ahead is only temporary.
It is indeed regression and Goku replying is out of character as he sees Vegeta more like a friend than a rival, Goku always seek to be stronger by himself, a path that Vegeta could follow if wasn't for Super fetish for his Cell arc persona.
mute_proxy wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:51 am
Oh come on, a technique that punches out energy? That is so cheap :evil: what a waste of an arc
I don't see the issue? I mean sure it's stupid for Vegeta have a technique that drains enemies energy, cause it's a villain thing, but it's valid nonetheless.
DestructoDisc wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:16 pm
Was it really necessary to show Moro eating 73? Couldn't it be, you know, off panel?
Again, what's the issue? This is not like Multiverse Bra chopping humanoid characters in half or graphic blowing Piccolo to bits, so it's pretty much tolerable.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:57 am

Zelvin wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:01 pm
So this story beat has already occurred. What makes this an asspull is the fact there was no indication Moro could just eat people to absorb them.
You're, again, arguing different points than the thing you quoted.

It doesn't matter if it resembles what happened previously. What matters is the training Vegeta was off doing was relevant to the plot point it was meant to be relevant to.
It also doesn't matter if something happens later that justifies Vegeta returning yet again.
No, it absolutely matters. Because arbitrarily taking one issue out of a story arc and then declaring the plot bad because things in that ONE issue don't play out how you expected them to is asinine. I could go back to the Saiyan Arc and take the chapter where Goku's Spirit Bomb fails to kill Vegeta and then do exactly what you're doing. But I won't, because that ignores a lot of context that come in the chapters afterward.

I don't think I need to explain that to any further degree.
You need one of two things to keep audience investment.
1. A well written story and/or likeable character(s).
2. A gimmick or trope that doesn't wear out its welcome. (see fan-service and ecchi series)
Keep that stuff on youtube, bro. I don't need arbitrary story checklists for what constitutes a "good" story thrown at me. Get this "every story needs" shit out of your head and you'll open yourself up to a vast ocean of art. Only the most commercial products tend to religiously adhere to these checklists, like dumb Marvel movies or modern Star Wars films.

But I digress. Even if we ignore that your "checklist" is conceptually complete garbage and antithetical to the very nature of art and just assess each individual point you made on their own merit we still run into issues.

Define "well-written". You can't, because that differs from person to person. Because art isn't science, and isn't objective, nor is it quantifiable. The best we can do in regard to art is come to consensuses, and that is in and of itself a dubious prospect since it was at one point public consensus that the world was flat.

Define "likable". Again, you can't, because depending on your own experiences (be it culture, race, etc), what you think is likable and what I think is likable could be worlds apart. To again use those godawful Marvel movies as an example: in Age of Ultron, Captain America decides he won't sacrifice a city, even though not sacrificing it means all of mankind dies (eventually contrivances happen in the plot to settle things for him such that everyone makes it out). Some people find that likable; I find it reprehensible.

But let's assume everyone likes the same type of people... does that mean a story where every character is designed to be an unlikable asshole should never be told, and can never be good or worthy? Do your characters have to be likable for your story to be meritorious? Those are rhetorical questions.

"Gimmick or trope" is are definable words, but to what degree? If these are needed, to what degree are they needed? Can your gimmick just be that "two people are in love and want to start a life together"? Or does it have to be bombastic and be something like "two robots are in love and want to start a life together"? The variation in suspension of disbelief there is pretty enormous.

If a rule, as claimed by you, is so open to interpretation and is so abstract, then is it even a rule to begin with?

On the matter of tropes—tropes are the tools that you use to tell a story. Every story, by virtue of being a human construct, has tropes. They can be small, or they can be large. A story cannot be told without using some form of trope. So, again, a bad rule because such an abstract and ubiquitous concept.

Open your mind, chico. But none of that has anything to do with dragonball. So let's get back to it.
This arc is giving us neither of these things.
"Us"

There are people in this very thread who like Moro. There are people who like the girls on Moro's squad. There are people who like the android guy. And so on.

Think about your points more.
It actually has been pretty damn predictable. Goku had always had some kind of power up or boost to win the day. Going all the way as far back as the original Dragon Ball. He gets nearly killed by Tao, then recovers with the help of Korrin, gets a power boost from training, comes back and beats Tao's ass. Gets nearly killed by King Piccolo, receives the Super Holy Water, comes back and wins the day.
I'm glad you can recount the plot to me.

Now address what you quoted. Rather than engage in some protracted back and forth about this, I'll get to the point. If you're that reductive about shit, then everything is predictable.

Let's look at the Goku vs Tao Pai Pai example. Goku is told some holy water will make him super strong. He seeks out Korin for that holy water. The twist is then that seeking the water is what makes you strong, and not the water itself. This made him strong enough to beat Tao PP.

The story structure there is predicated on the twist. The twist highlights the journey of the character and the development that journey forced. It also doubled down on the message that there are no shortcuts to power at the time. But you could easily ignore all that and make a reductive statement like "He gets nearly killed by Tao, then recovers with the help of Korrin, gets a power boost from training, comes back and beats Tao's ass."

The twist was the point. That's not predictable. Predictable, in this case, meaning "the plot happens exactly as it tells you it will happen". It told us about super holy water; but the super holy water was just tap water. Similar thing here. The plot told us to expect Vegeta to come in clutch, but things didn't work out exactly like we were supposed to think they'd work out.
There was no indication he was like Majin Buu and could just eat people
There is absolutely no difference between him literally eating androidman or him just draining all of androidman's powers.
He's not writing Shakespeare either.
Shakespeare was considered lowbrow in his time, dawg. His work was considered pedestrian and too palatable to commoners. But his popularity with those commoners made his work endure and we now hold him up to the degree that his name is shorthand for "literary brilliance".

Toriyama penned the most popular manga of all time, that continues to endure to this day, 24 years after he ended it. Dragonball is more popular and more culturally ubiquitous than King Lear or Othello, and has inspired 2 generations of mangaka who continue to create derivative works of it.

I'm not here to tell you that Toriyama is the next Shakespeare, but I am telling you that you seriously need to reconsider how you view art.
Noah wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:30 pm
Yeah, keep telling yourself that.
Bro, if you're gonna quote me and make me get a notification, have something of substance to say. Don't be a fanboy.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:37 pm

TKA wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:57 am
Text
This was a damn good read. Definitely providing a good point of view for the series as is. I agree with all points made!
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:44 pm

TKA wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:57 am
Snip
Co-signed completely. Glad to see you posting regularly again.
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:46 pm
But I'm talking about a practical, long-term use of this technique, which fulfilled its purpose in the ideological part only.
The ideological/thematic part is all that matters. "Long-term utility" is intrinsically pointless if it has no bearing on the story being told.

I really couldn't give two shits about Vegeta getting UI Lites or Super Saiyan 7s or Ultra Pybaras if they have nothing to do with his development as a character; proper transformations, abilities, and power-ups represent vehicles for themes and internal growth, not "badass" DBH schlock to sell toys.

Forced Spirit Fission is practical because it's specific, not in spite of it. That was actually the whole point of countering Moro's absorption. They needed something practical, not theoretical - the latter approach was Goku's UI speed and it failed spectacularly.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:00 pm

It’s funny cause I would say the technique is actually MUCH better than what I originally expected.
I thought it was going to be something super specific about Moro, but it works on every fused being too.
Heck, it even works on Piccolo! That’s quite a powerful technique and it’s not specific at all. And that’s a good thing, cause Toyotaro hyped it up a lot and the payoff was great in my opinion.

What’s to be seen is if Vegeta will be able to unfuse the new Moro too.

By the way, add me to the list of people who agree with TKA’s long post above.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Femme Fatale Kikaza » Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:09 pm

Me too, TKA is pretty much what I thought!
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jean0987654321 » Wed Jul 08, 2020 3:04 am

TKA hit the nail on the head there...

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Super Murjin » Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:02 am

Toyotaro's DBS chapter 62 rough scans should be coming out this weekend?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:45 pm

Super Murjin wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:02 am
Toyotaro's DBS chapter 62 rough scans should be coming out this weekend?
They'll be out on the 13th if I'm not mistaking.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kagari » Thu Jul 09, 2020 2:11 pm

Lionel wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:01 pm
It would be a grievous waste for Toyotaro to not have Vegeta's spirit training continue as a long term utility and a pseudo-philosophical frame of reference but the negligence itself wouldn't be without precedent. Does anyone here remember when Tenshinhan was undergoing intensive training in the Daimou arc to learn the Mafuba? Yeah, that was never even put to use in the manga and seemed to be forgotten about in later arcs -- at least Vegeta was able to take advantage of the fruits of his labour.
It would be a waste for Goku to not use destruction again... oh...

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Thu Jul 09, 2020 3:45 pm

Kagari wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 2:11 pm
It would be a waste for Goku to not use destruction again... oh...
It was already established in that chapter that Goku doesn't like the technique, presumably due to the fact it bypasses fighting completely to just destroy whatever is in front of him. Goku only used it because he presumed it was the only way to stop an immortal Zamasu (granted it turned out even that was wrong.)

Honestly, it'd be out of character for him to ever bring it up again. Moro isn't an immortal, and if Goku could manage Ultra Instinct he'd probably manage to beat him.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ShaggyBlanco » Thu Jul 09, 2020 5:29 pm

Kagari wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 2:11 pm
Lionel wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:01 pm
It would be a grievous waste for Toyotaro to not have Vegeta's spirit training continue as a long term utility and a pseudo-philosophical frame of reference but the negligence itself wouldn't be without precedent. Does anyone here remember when Tenshinhan was undergoing intensive training in the Daimou arc to learn the Mafuba? Yeah, that was never even put to use in the manga and seemed to be forgotten about in later arcs -- at least Vegeta was able to take advantage of the fruits of his labour.
It would be a waste for Goku to not use destruction again... oh...
The moment Goku started losing while in UIO i was really expecting him to at least try to use it out of desperation (it wouldn't work but it would be nice to see it)

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by miguelnuva1 » Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:31 am

Fuse into Gogeta, Gogeta goes into Omen, Gogeta uses Forced Spirit fission. Gogeta second person to beat 3 different foes across 3 different mediums. (Anime, manga, Movies).

Bonus points if he uses Hakai.

That's my prediction.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:06 am

miguelnuva1 wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:31 am
Fuse into Gogeta, Gogeta goes into Omen, Gogeta uses Forced Spirit fission. Gogeta second person to beat 3 different foes across 3 different mediums. (Anime, manga, Movies).

Bonus points if he uses Hakai.

That's my prediction.
Fusion would be one of the worst outcomes, especially after Vegeta talking about preferring to fight one on one. If we can't get a Vegeta win, then MUI Goku would be the next best thing. I'll probably be OK with anything other than fusion and Merus.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by miguelnuva1 » Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:29 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:06 am
miguelnuva1 wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:31 am
Fuse into Gogeta, Gogeta goes into Omen, Gogeta uses Forced Spirit fission. Gogeta second person to beat 3 different foes across 3 different mediums. (Anime, manga, Movies).

Bonus points if he uses Hakai.

That's my prediction.
Fusion would be one of the worst outcomes, especially after Vegeta talking about preferring to fight one on one. If we can't get a Vegeta win, then MUI Goku would be the next best thing. I'll probably be OK with anything other than fusion and Merus.
Ultra instinct to me would be much worse than fusion. Goku already fought and lost and Vegeta did as well. Either they tag team, fuse or someone else should fight.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Femme Fatale Kikaza » Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:49 pm

But Gogeta legit just appeared. Vegito had his turn in the Zamasu arc before he fizzled out. Fusion is something that should be used in a different arc from now, far from here. If they do fuse again, it'd have to be important as hell.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DiscountDabi » Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:50 pm

It would be a waste for Moro to Absorb 7-3 and not use his ability so He’s more than likely going to take Vegeta’s Technique meaning Fusion and The Spirit Bomb is out of the question.

Good use of Vegeta’s New Technique would be to Separate The Grand Supreme Kai from Buu. Seems like the Logical Next Step

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DestructoDisc » Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:05 pm

What if Goku, Gohan, Piccolo, The androids and Jaco do a 5-way fusion that they learned from somewhere somehow? Would they beat Moro with it?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:03 pm

DestructoDisc wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:05 pm
What if Goku, Gohan, Piccolo, The androids and Jaco do a 5-way fusion that they learned from somewhere somehow? Would they beat Moro with it?
You'd probably get something like that abomination Ultra Pinich from DB Fusions. *shudders*

But yeah, they probably would beat him. Not sure how much Jaco could contribute though :lol:
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Femme Fatale Kikaza » Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:11 pm

If a fusion happens I'd rather it be of one the B tier fighters, like Gohan, 17-18 or maybe Piccolo. Goku and Vegeta legit just fused into Gogeta and I can't see Vegito showing up. He just had a spot in the light during Zamasu's final showdown. The B tier aren't going to be of much assistance, I'd rather they be able to do something instead of just standing in the sidelines, potentially being at risk of getting killed due to Moro being stronger than them. I say they make new fusions instead of rehearsing the old ones on the hero's side.
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