"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:50 am

MCDaveG wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:26 am
LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:04 am
Ok so here's a question: what's the deal with Toyotaro drawing characters with hunchbacks so often?
What do you mean? Can you point out some examples? I know that Moro is kind leaned forward when in his goat original form,
but outside of that, I have no idea.
It's just something I've noticed. He poses a lot of his characters with arched backs in scenes where they prepare for battle, not just Moro. Usually with the generic fists-clenched "power-up" pose.

Image

That's not the best example I can find since the Saiyans are clearly tired in this panel. It's no biggie, and of course Toriyama and other artists are guilty of recycling the same poses over and over, but... yeah, with this manga, it's starting to distract me a little.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Locust » Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:53 am

Ohhh you meant anatomy errors, sorry sorry I thought you meant character designs ignore my previous reply -

Yeah, Toyotaro has some weaknesses in anatomy, hopefully if he ever has any free time he can do some anatomy studies or something cause this can be something that can be swiftly fixed, if he puts the effort in
I think that's why he falls back to so many same-y looking poses
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:27 pm

I think Toyotaro gets too much flack for his anatomy issues. He's drawing a cartoon, not an anatomy textbook. There are plenty of issues you can nitpick in the DBS manga (and the original manga), but most of them are not distracting unless you're looking for them. Often, the neck issues are how Toyotaro conveys intensity with poses. You can disagree with the approach, and Toyotaro does have fundamental weaknesses as an artist, but it works.

For example, there are "broken" necks in this panel, but the positioning of the heads in relation to the bodies also conveys speed:
Mark Twain said "Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please." Cartoonists like Toriyama employ this philosophy well. Toyotaro's not nearly as masterful, but we shouldn't always blame such things on incompetence.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Wed Aug 05, 2020 2:10 pm

Locust wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:53 am
Ohhh you meant anatomy errors, sorry sorry I thought you meant character designs ignore my previous reply -

Yeah, Toyotaro has some weaknesses in anatomy, hopefully if he ever has any free time he can do some anatomy studies or something cause this can be something that can be swiftly fixed, if he puts the effort in
I think that's why he falls back to so many same-y looking poses
No problem, my original comment was pretty vague. :)

I think that would be best for Toyotaro. He needs to stop looking at reference pictures from his sensei and dig into a few textbooks. Toriyama messed with anatomy a tonne, but he would at least do it in dynamic, interesting ways.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:06 pm

batistabus wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:27 pm
I think Toyotaro gets too much flack for his anatomy issues. He's drawing a cartoon, not an anatomy textbook. There are plenty of issues you can nitpick in the DBS manga (and the original manga), but most of them are not distracting unless you're looking for them. Often, the neck issues are how Toyotaro conveys intensity with poses. You can disagree with the approach, and Toyotaro does have fundamental weaknesses as an artist, but it works.

For example, there are "broken" necks in this panel, but the positioning of the heads in relation to the bodies also conveys speed:
Mark Twain said "Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please." Cartoonists like Toriyama employ this philosophy well. Toyotaro's not nearly as masterful, but we shouldn't always blame such things on incompetence.
At this point, the neck thing is just his stylistic choice. He's done it consistently and has not changed anything about it since the first chapters.

Complaining about an artist having their flourishes or a distinct style is sorta missing the whole point of being an artist. I don't think the neck thing looks cool by any stretch of the imagination, but clearly Toriyama is okay with it and doesn't "correct" it, so it's whatever.

You can keep complaining about Frank Miller's artstyle, or you can just accept that it's been 40 years and he's not gonna change now, so just take it for what it is.

Anyone reading this should feel free to disagree. This is art and no opinion on it is objective. All I can say is I personally find the discussion (at least at the level most people are comfortable to have it) of his pictures to be a pretty boring one, but you don't have to.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:06 pm

I mean... I know this forum in general is primarily concerned with discussion of the storylines and so on, but it's fair to want to discuss the art as well, as in-depth as anyone wants. Comics are a visual medium after all. I'd certainly rather talk about it than power-scaling debates for the zillionth time.

I don't mind artists having their own unique styles at all. Dragon Ball is already incredibly stylised. I think it's perfectly valid to criticise anatomy when these character designs are meant to be very articulated and internally consistent, though. I guess I can sympathise with Toyotaro to an extent because there's a built-in standard for him to live up to that he's only allowed to branch out from in minor ways. The neck-and-shoulders thing is one slightly ugly manifestation of his own sensibilities creeping out. On paper, that's good! But I'd honestly like to see Toyotaro's art style branch out even further, hopefully so that he can one day leave the overused, uncomfortable-looking hunchback poses behind. :D
Image Image

The way Toriyama personally corrects certain pieces of Toyotaro's art is quite fascinating. For instance, the difference in the way that he drew Zamasu compared to Toyotaro in that one panel is staggering. Toyotaro was clearly in "drawing Shin" mode in the above picture -- he later noted he was still coming to grips with the idea of a dark Kaioshin. So his Zamasu initially just looks like a weird, bug-eyed Shin, like he was still trying to follow Toriyama's reference images. Toriyama's Zamasu, below, actually looks cold, steely and mean.

Toriyama undeniably has the experience and the magic touch that Toyotaro just doesn't have... yet. There's always time. But like I said, I'd like to see him practice and refine his own style more, and maybe do some non-Dragon Ball material in the future.
Image

With Frank Miller, I'll still moan about his increasingly terrible art till the sun rises anyway. :lol:
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:25 pm

This discussion makes me wonder what's the context around Toyotaro.

How much pressure does he get from editors, executives and Toriyama?
Are his repeated poses from insecurity or from positive reinforcement that they work?
Did his workload increase from when he was hired - more than half the pages -, stunned his art and paneling? Etc...

I don't envy his job, it isn't easy. In another context his art might have evolved differently.

I think all artist continuing Dragon Ball should be inspired by it and not copy it. Feels like Toyotaro falls on the later, even Toriyama's art changed during the tenure of the manga.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Locust » Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:29 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:06 pm
Toriyama undeniably has the experience and the magic touch that Toyotaro just doesn't have... yet. There's always time. But like I said, I'd like to see him practice and refine his own style more, and maybe do some non-Dragon Ball material in the future.
Honestly, I do have to give Toyotaro a lot of credit -
Going from the relatively low pressure environment of being a doujinshi artist, to instantly being flung into working professionally on such a huge IP - wow! To know that yeah, you're gonna be scrutinized SO SO hard because people just love this series so much -
I don't think I could have handled that kind of pressure, so I admire him quite a lot!

I think a lot of people are overly hard on Toyotaro sometimes - I critique him, but that's more from my angle of also being a manga artist - critiquing others helps me with my own work

I think Toyotaro has endless potential, I'm really quite interested in how his style - both in art and storytelling - will evolve
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:37 pm

What really bugs me about Toyo are his legs. How he draws them, I've never seen his lower body. I don't even know how to describe them, but the baggy pants look extra-baggy when he draws them.

Still, I can't give the guy enough props, he's been wearing Toriyama's shoes for 5 years, with a crazy work schedule and pressure and still delivers something artistically enjoyable.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:48 pm

Locust wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:29 pm
LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:06 pm
Toriyama undeniably has the experience and the magic touch that Toyotaro just doesn't have... yet. There's always time. But like I said, I'd like to see him practice and refine his own style more, and maybe do some non-Dragon Ball material in the future.
Honestly, I do have to give Toyotaro a lot of credit -
Going from the relatively low pressure environment of being a doujinshi artist, to instantly being flung into working professionally on such a huge IP - wow! To know that yeah, you're gonna be scrutinized SO SO hard because people just love this series so much -
I don't think I could have handled that kind of pressure, so I admire him quite a lot!

I think a lot of people are overly hard on Toyotaro sometimes - I critique him, but that's more from my angle of also being a manga artist - critiquing others helps me with my own work

I think Toyotaro has endless potential, I'm really quite interested in how his style - both in art and storytelling - will evolve
Considering the inherent stress of the job, I wonder if the latest chapter was his way of venting. Yes, I finally get to draw Goku getting punched through the heart MUHAHA! Toyotaro has undeniably stepped up to the plate, I'll give him that.
Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:37 pm
What really bugs me about Toyo are his legs. How he draws them, I've never seen his lower body. I don't even know how to describe them, but the baggy pants look extra-baggy when he draws them.
YES. It often looks like Goku's rocking MC Hammers.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Draconic » Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:06 am

Toriyama undeniably has the experience and the magic touch that Toyotaro just doesn't have... yet. There's always time.
The guy is 42, has been drawing manga professionally for almost 10 years, 5 of which have been in Super. He's not that good and will probably only become marginally better, as long as he works under Toriyama. Once he decides he's out of the supervising job, well, that's it for Toyo.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:22 am

Draconic wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:06 am
The guy is 42, has been drawing manga professionally for almost 10 years, 5 of which have been in Super. He's not that good and will probably only become marginally better, as long as he works under Toriyama. Once he decides he's out of the supervising job, well, that's it for Toyo.
I like Toyotaro and think he improved a lot since he worked on AF and Heroes. He might not improve much moving forward since he's older than Toriyama was when he completed the original manga. For long running Shonen titles like Naruto and Bleach, the artists were in their late 30's/early 40's when they ended them. Did the quality suffer for artists who continued to draw into their 50's like for Berserk and JJBA? I've only watched the animes and heard their artstyles had changed over the years but not necessarily worse.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Draconic » Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:40 am

Skar wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:22 am
Draconic wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:06 am
The guy is 42, has been drawing manga professionally for almost 10 years, 5 of which have been in Super. He's not that good and will probably only become marginally better, as long as he works under Toriyama. Once he decides he's out of the supervising job, well, that's it for Toyo.
I like Toyotaro and think he improved a lot since he worked on AF and Heroes. He might not improve much moving forward since he's older than Toriyama was when he completed the original manga. For long running Shonen titles like Naruto and Bleach, the artists were in their late 30's/early 40's when they ended them. Did the quality suffer for artists who continued to draw into their 50's like for Berserk and JJBA? I've only watched the animes and heard their artstyles had changed over the years but not necessarily worse.
Araki's changed drastically, but it didn't get worse. The penultimate part is actually consider the best in the series.
Can't say about Berserk.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Locust » Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:58 am

Draconic wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:06 am
Toriyama undeniably has the experience and the magic touch that Toyotaro just doesn't have... yet. There's always time.
The guy is 42, has been drawing manga professionally for almost 10 years, 5 of which have been in Super. He's not that good and will probably only become marginally better, as long as he works under Toriyama. Once he decides he's out of the supervising job, well, that's it for Toyo.
Artists, when they put the work in, never stop improving
It's a craft you can continue to reach new heights in - if you put the hard work and effort in

Age means nothing, don't know why you brought that up?
Length of drawing also doesn't always translate into = improvement of drawing. To improve drawing, you must seriously practice smartly - if you just practice directionlessly, you won't have much improvements - it's not enough to just draw a lot

Take into account he's working under strict time schedules that may not give him much time to go and brush up on the fundamentals and such
I'm convinced he can improve in these aspects if he is able to really take the time and study

As it stands - his work isn't so bad. He just as certain aspects that he can improve on, but I would certainly not look at an average Toyotaro drawing and say "this is terrible"
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DevilKing99 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:25 am

Is Toyo even allowed to come up with things alone or has the time to?

I'm sure he has to go through Shueisa on every chapter as they are the ruling group that controls everything now.

It's like not he is the actual boss of things like how Togashi, Kishi, and Oda can do anything they want.

Keep in mind an editor from Shueisha is the one who told Toriyama to make a story about Broly, Toriyama said he forgot who Broly even was until the editor told him and he watched the old movie.

The Dragon Ball Room is a thing too.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Noitsnothim » Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:01 pm

I'm glad there's a discussion about the anatomy problems when it comes to DragonBall characters in the manga of 'Super'
lots of people have point out that Toyotaro has a lot of problems (from tracing/paying too many homages to the way he draws fights/Anatomy) I noticed that if you point these flaws out to him he'll block you on Twitter (I believe he uses that the most)

the guy isn't a fan of Criticism from worldwide DragonBall fans and he'll silence anyone who brings up his problems which isn't good

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:29 pm

Noitsnothim wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:01 pm
I'm glad there's a discussion about the anatomy problems when it comes to DragonBall characters in the manga of 'Super'
lots of people have point out that Toyotaro has a lot of problems (from tracing/paying too many homages to the way he draws fights/Anatomy) I noticed that if you point these flaws out to him he'll block you on Twitter (I believe he uses that the most)

the guy isn't a fan of Criticism from worldwide DragonBall fans and he'll silence anyone who brings up his problems which isn't good
Dang, that sucks. It seems that the Japanese are generally a little more trigger happy with the block function. Case in point, Hideki Kamiya.

When critiquing Toyotaro's style, his anatomy issues and so on, I think there's a real double standard here, on this site especially. People will shit on Yamamuro all day long, and not without reason -- his over-shading, his action-figure-y anatomy on the characters, etc. You could say it's just his style and it's best to get used to it and stop complaining, but that's not really how it works. Then when Toyotaro gets some light criticism, like "Hey, necks don't really work like that, mate", suddenly he's a victim. I don't deny that he's got a tough job, but compared to Toriyama at the height of his workload (and many mangaka working today for that matter) -- working on a crushing weekly manga schedule, providing designs for Dragon Quest characters, providing designs for movie characters, working on tonnes of miscellaneous projects on the side -- he's got off relatively easy.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Noitsnothim » Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:34 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:29 pm
Noitsnothim wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:01 pm
I'm glad there's a discussion about the anatomy problems when it comes to DragonBall characters in the manga of 'Super'
lots of people have point out that Toyotaro has a lot of problems (from tracing/paying too many homages to the way he draws fights/Anatomy) I noticed that if you point these flaws out to him he'll block you on Twitter (I believe he uses that the most)

the guy isn't a fan of Criticism from worldwide DragonBall fans and he'll silence anyone who brings up his problems which isn't good
Dang, that sucks. It seems that the Japanese are generally a little more trigger happy with the block function. Case in point, Hideki Kamiya.

When critiquing Toyotaro's style, his anatomy issues and so on, I think there's a real double standard here, on this site especially. People will shit on Yamamuro all day long, and not without reason -- his over-shading, his action-figure-y anatomy on the characters, etc. You could say it's just his style and it's best to get used to it and stop complaining, but that's not really how it works. Then when Toyotaro gets some light criticism, like "Hey, necks don't really work like that, mate", suddenly he's a victim. I don't deny that he's got a tough job, but compared to Toriyama at the height of his workload (and many mangaka working today for that matter) -- working on a crushing weekly manga schedule, providing designs for Dragon Quest characters, providing designs for movie characters, working on tonnes of miscellaneous projects on the side -- he's got off relatively easy.
Toriyama's got one thing that Toyo doesn't and that's the ability to draw (Also: Japanese fans have begun pointing out Toyo's flaws too) won't be long till fans bring these writing and drawing problems to Shueisha or V-Jump

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:05 pm

Toriyama is better. He drew Ultimate Gohan way better in the Buu Arc than any version of Gohan Toyotaro has managed to draw so far. Among many other examples. Toriyama is just better.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:31 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:06 pm
I mean... I know this forum in general is primarily concerned with discussion of the storylines and so on, but it's fair to want to discuss the art as well, as in-depth as anyone wants
That's why I specified it to my interests. Most people don't engage with art on a sophisticated level (and that's perfectly fine), so all these discussions tend to come down to is "I don't like the art/I like the art". Very few people get into the "why" of it, and fewer still are able to come to grips with the fact that artists (or composers, or directors, or whatever other creative role) draw (or score, or shoot, or whatever other respective thing the creative does) things in a way that is geared to help tell the story they want to.

This is a non-illustrator example, but take Bruce Faulconer, for example. A lot of DB fans will dunk on him because his stuff is "vapid" or whatever. There's not much to gain from that discussion. It's a you like it or you don't like it type of thing. Personally, I think what he did achieved exactly what they wanted it to, and I'd love to discuss the why in that. Why did it work so well? Why is his sound so iconic to Dragonball fans, such that you have people rescoring entire movies with his old tracks? What were he and Funimation trying to do with the musical choices he made? Those are more interesting discussions to me than the cursory "The original version's music was better."

Again, this isn't to diminish anyone else's preferences. I just don't care to get into discussions like those because I personally find them useless outside of trying to gauge the popularity of something.
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