"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Draconic » Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:00 am

Noitsnothim wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:01 pm
I'm glad there's a discussion about the anatomy problems when it comes to DragonBall characters in the manga of 'Super'
lots of people have point out that Toyotaro has a lot of problems (from tracing/paying too many homages to the way he draws fights/Anatomy) I noticed that if you point these flaws out to him he'll block you on Twitter (I believe he uses that the most)

the guy isn't a fan of Criticism from worldwide DragonBall fans and he'll silence anyone who brings up his problems which isn't good
I'm pretty sure the "criticism" he gets on twitter isn't the most constructive either.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:52 am

TKA wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:31 pm
LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:06 pm
I mean... I know this forum in general is primarily concerned with discussion of the storylines and so on, but it's fair to want to discuss the art as well, as in-depth as anyone wants
That's why I specified it to my interests. Most people don't engage with art on a sophisticated level (and that's perfectly fine), so all these discussions tend to come down to is "I don't like the art/I like the art". Very few people get into the "why" of it, and fewer still are able to come to grips with the fact that artists (or composers, or directors, or whatever other creative role) draw (or score, or shoot, or whatever other respective thing the creative does) things in a way that is geared to help tell the story they want to.

This is a non-illustrator example, but take Bruce Faulconer, for example. A lot of DB fans will dunk on him because his stuff is "vapid" or whatever. There's not much to gain from that discussion. It's a you like it or you don't like it type of thing. Personally, I think what he did achieved exactly what they wanted it to, and I'd love to discuss the why in that. Why did it work so well? Why is his sound so iconic to Dragonball fans, such that you have people rescoring entire movies with his old tracks? What were he and Funimation trying to do with the musical choices he made? Those are more interesting discussions to me than the cursory "The original version's music was better."

Again, this isn't to diminish anyone else's preferences. I just don't care to get into discussions like those because I personally find them useless outside of trying to gauge the popularity of something.
... Right...

Doesn't basically every critical discussion here end up going more or less the same way, just people's unsubstantiated opinions on what they think is good or bad? Whether the topic is the illustration quality, or the writing, or the power-scaling, or indeed Bruce Faulconer's score. Many people on this forum are capable of espousing verbose opinions about any of these topics, but in turn, you're always going to get some vapid, circular nerd cockfighting. It happens with any aspect of art, so why single out the art and music? They're both extremely important to this franchise in particular. It's not usually a big issue.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:10 am

Noitsnothim wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:01 pm
the guy isn't a fan of Criticism from worldwide DragonBall fans and he'll silence anyone who brings up his problems which isn't good
Have fans come forward and proven that he blocks criticism or is it more of a rumor? I'm not sure how Twitter works but I assume famous people would have direct messages blocked when they first make their accounts to avoid spam and trolling.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:04 pm

Noitsnothim wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:01 pm
I'm glad there's a discussion about the anatomy problems when it comes to DragonBall characters in the manga of 'Super'
lots of people have point out that Toyotaro has a lot of problems (from tracing/paying too many homages to the way he draws fights/Anatomy) I noticed that if you point these flaws out to him he'll block you on Twitter (I believe he uses that the most)

the guy isn't a fan of Criticism from worldwide DragonBall fans and he'll silence anyone who brings up his problems which isn't good
I mean, Twitter can be quite toxic most of the time, so who knows what kind of criticism Toyo gets. I'm sure his editor and Toriyama should point out his flaws as an artist, Toriyama even talked about it in an old interview

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:33 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:52 am
... Right...

Doesn't basically every critical discussion here end up going more or less the same way, just people's unsubstantiated opinions on what they think is good or bad?
There's a lot of context in my post where I explain my point. But let me distill it.

Binary discussions that come down to "I like it" or "I don't like it" are boring. There's nothing to gain from them. They're, at least to me, completely surface level.

Discussions that remove "liking it" or "not liking it" from the equation are more meaty for me.

If you're ever bored enough to dig into my post history, you'll see my disdain for this arc rarely comes up. I mention it once or twice and then talk about the structure of the chapters, and so on. Because that's the stuff that interests me more. "Why does this arc feel so different?" "Why is the pacing so off?" "What's the story being told here, and how do the pieces of each chapter contribute to that?" and so on are the things that make up the bulk of my posts.

I've made a point of saying "in my opinion" or some derivative of that several times in this post to a nauseating degree (I don't think anyone on any forum should have to say that, since it should be clear everything being said is the person's opinion) in order to not have anyone feel attacked.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:23 pm

TKA wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:33 pm
LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:52 am
... Right...

Doesn't basically every critical discussion here end up going more or less the same way, just people's unsubstantiated opinions on what they think is good or bad?
There's a lot of context in my post where I explain my point. But let me distill it.

Binary discussions that come down to "I like it" or "I don't like it" are boring. There's nothing to gain from them. They're, at least to me, completely surface level.

Discussions that remove "liking it" or "not liking it" from the equation are more meaty for me.

If you're ever bored enough to dig into my post history, you'll see my disdain for this arc rarely comes up. I mention it once or twice and then talk about the structure of the chapters, and so on. Because that's the stuff that interests me more. "Why does this arc feel so different?" "Why is the pacing so off?" "What's the story being told here, and how do the pieces of each chapter contribute to that?" and so on are the things that make up the bulk of my posts.

I've made a point of saying "in my opinion" or some derivative of that several times in this post to a nauseating degree (I don't think anyone on any forum should have to say that, since it should be clear everything being said is the person's opinion) in order to not have anyone feel attacked.
But you're acting like absolutely no one wants to talk about the "why" in this case. It's not always a binary discussion of what's liked or disliked. Again, the same can be said of any type of discussion. I made a big post earlier about why I find Toriyama's corrections of Toyotaro's art interesting, what sensibilities Toriyama has that Toyotaro currently lacks, where I'd like to see Toyotaro's art improve and evolve from here, etc. And others have given their own thoughts on the matter, which I do find interesting to gauge.

You're of course entitled to your opinion. I don't necessarily feel attacked but I don't find it productive. It's like, I really couldn't care less about the various discussions about Funimation's various releases DVD releases of DBZ and the differing fidelity of each version, but I wouldn't just barge into a thread about it and say that the whole discussion is boring.

I don't wanna hassle any further. Have a good one.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rebel Instinct » Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:26 pm

Noitsnothim wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:01 pm
I noticed that if you point these flaws out to him he'll block you on Twitter (I believe he uses that the most)

the guy isn't a fan of Criticism from worldwide DragonBall fans and he'll silence anyone who brings up his problems which isn't good
You got anything to substantiate that claim? If you're referring to blocking all the people who routinely harass him in English (and other non-Japanese languages he can't read - including crude Google Translate complaints) about his art and writing on unrelated posts on his timeline, then i think that hardly qualifies as "silencing criticism". If the nature of the "criticism" you're referring to is in any way similar to some of your comments, I can see why he'd choose to block them. It's often unrelated to the subject at hand, rude, unproductive and insulting.
Noitsnothim wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:34 pm
Toriyama's got one thing that Toyo doesn't and that's the ability to draw (Also: Japanese fans have begun pointing out Toyo's flaws too) won't be long till fans bring these writing and drawing problems to Shueisha or V-Jump
The bolded line is really all anyone needs to read to see your comments are hateful and disingenuous.Toyotaro can draw. He can draw quite well in fact. Any suggestion to the contrary is a straight up lie. A few minor anatomy errors here and there don't invalidate all of the rest of his work. Toyotaro's volume covers and interstitial art are often gorgeous and the overwhelming majority of his artwork is either competent or great. If you're going to insist on minor errors being enough to consider it an "inability to draw", then what does that say about the litany of minor errors in Toriyama's original manga? Or the inevitable errors in any other professional mangaka's works? Are they all hacks, or is it just Toyotaro? The frequency and severity of his anatomy errors are hardly enough hold him to such an intense level of scrutiny.

As for the latter part of the above quote, that just smacks of spite-fueled wishful thinking on your part. Toyotaro's been drawing the official Super manga for nearly 5 years now. In all this time he's drawn 62 chapters, gotten nothing but praise from Toriyama and nothing has come of it. Do you honestly believe that after all this time the "fans" are on the verge of "rising up against Toyotaro" and tattling on him to Shueisha and V-Jump? To what end? To get him fired for "bad art"? Are you serious? The manga sells very well and regularly places high on popularity charts. If anything he'd done was worthy of getting him canned, it would've happened a long time ago. If he "couldn't draw", he would never have been picked in the first place.
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It's people riveting on their chance to feel validated in their opinion; to attack the "manga fans" (whatever that means) to prove themselves. My assumption is that everyone here is a Dragon Ball fan, capable of having discussions as equals and not segregate ourselves into little sectors trying to be the "superior faction", ignoring arguments, politeness and even common sense (like having all the information at hand).

Clearly I am mistaken.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Gt91 » Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:58 am

Chapter 63 preview

https://twitter.com/peraperayume/status ... 62081.html

Maybe merus won't fight, maybe he has another plan. Who knows.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Femme Fatale Kikaza » Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:26 am

Gt91 wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:58 am
Chapter 63 preview

https://twitter.com/peraperayume/status ... 62081.html

Maybe merus won't fight, maybe he has another plan. Who knows.
Merus is more than likely a distraction so the fighters can get healed. Because A. Whis is in HOT WATER if Merus dies because the Grand Minister will send his ire his way. B. Merus getting erased will probably make Whis look bad because I doubt he let Merus in unsupervised. C. Beerus is likely on Earth and if all else fails he can still step in.

Merus will likely cause distractions and run away from Moro when he tries to get close to him. The idea Moro would get his hands on Merus is laughable, because for that to happen he's gonna need to CATCH him first. Given how fast Merus is, he could legit dance and Moro wouldn't be able to grab him. Unless Merus lets him touch his neck(Which would be bad because Moro having angel powers would be BROKEN, we should be fine).
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Gt91 » Sat Aug 08, 2020 2:08 pm

Femme Fatale Kikaza wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:26 am
Gt91 wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:58 am
Chapter 63 preview

https://twitter.com/peraperayume/status ... 62081.html

Maybe merus won't fight, maybe he has another plan. Who knows.
Merus is more than likely a distraction so the fighters can get healed. Because A. Whis is in HOT WATER if Merus dies because the Grand Minister will send his ire his way. B. Merus getting erased will probably make Whis look bad because I doubt he let Merus in unsupervised. C. Beerus is likely on Earth and if all else fails he can still step in.

Merus will likely cause distractions and run away from Moro when he tries to get close to him. The idea Moro would get his hands on Merus is laughable, because for that to happen he's gonna need to CATCH him first. Given how fast Merus is, he could legit dance and Moro wouldn't be able to grab him. Unless Merus lets him touch his neck(Which would be bad because Moro having angel powers would be BROKEN, we should be fine).
You are probably right.
I would like to see merus "playing" with moro, something like whis vs broly. To show that sense of superiority and the gap between an apprentice angel and moro.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Femme Fatale Kikaza » Sat Aug 08, 2020 2:21 pm

Gt91 wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 2:08 pm
Femme Fatale Kikaza wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:26 am
Gt91 wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:58 am
Chapter 63 preview

https://twitter.com/peraperayume/status ... 62081.html

Maybe merus won't fight, maybe he has another plan. Who knows.
Merus is more than likely a distraction so the fighters can get healed. Because A. Whis is in HOT WATER if Merus dies because the Grand Minister will send his ire his way. B. Merus getting erased will probably make Whis look bad because I doubt he let Merus in unsupervised. C. Beerus is likely on Earth and if all else fails he can still step in.

Merus will likely cause distractions and run away from Moro when he tries to get close to him. The idea Moro would get his hands on Merus is laughable, because for that to happen he's gonna need to CATCH him first. Given how fast Merus is, he could legit dance and Moro wouldn't be able to grab him. Unless Merus lets him touch his neck(Which would be bad because Moro having angel powers would be BROKEN, we should be fine).
You are probably right.
I would like to see merus "playing" with moro, something like whis vs broly. To show that sense of superiority and the gap between an apprentice angel and moro.
Merus would legit just jump around Moro to his annoyance because he can't touch him. Also if Merus dies, Whis would look very stupid because of all the hoops he went through to keep Merus alive.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by MCDaveG » Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:45 am

Draconic wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:00 am
Noitsnothim wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:01 pm
I'm glad there's a discussion about the anatomy problems when it comes to DragonBall characters in the manga of 'Super'
lots of people have point out that Toyotaro has a lot of problems (from tracing/paying too many homages to the way he draws fights/Anatomy) I noticed that if you point these flaws out to him he'll block you on Twitter (I believe he uses that the most)

the guy isn't a fan of Criticism from worldwide DragonBall fans and he'll silence anyone who brings up his problems which isn't good
I'm pretty sure the "criticism" he gets on twitter isn't the most constructive either.
What we get on Bandai Facebook is sometimes enough... but luckily, people stopped shouting ''we want Budokai Tenkaichi 4" and other weird stuff on posts for Gundam or Project Cars nowadays. I think that it is a good strategy, to keep an eye on fans, like Rian Johnson did for example to an extent, that they made a fun from Mike Zeroh and his BS leaks. That helps you monitor the fanbase and their expectations... but most of the movie/tv series ideas from fans are not that good or they get outright toxic with criticisms instead of supporting the artists so they can make more work on a franchise.
I would not hold it against Toyotaro, blocking people... frankly, he is not that bad and he will always be in Toriyama's shadow, he is just a fan, who was good at copying artstyle of a master and that is what he will remain... he won't be doing video game designs or other high profile work like the master did. But well, if he somewhat shot higher up and did his own series, I would be happy for him.
Drawing fan art and be promoted to draw it officially is pretty good, but it is never the same as drawing your own series and be the creator. But Toyotaro must have some quality about him, why did they chose him over anyone else right?
Because there is like ton of people, even proffessionals to choose from, so why him?
Sometimes, the higher ups who are just managers do bad decisions which kills the output in the process like that happened to Super or happens in DC or Marvel sometimes, but this is a guy that works closely with Toriyama and people involved in the actual output.

Long story short - I think he is actually pretty good and people criticize him for not being Toriyama, which he frankly is not, is pretty harsh...
Hell, Toriyama could have draw the series himself if he was not fed up with it, like Kurumada does for example - but he is old. Take Kurumada, his hands are seriously damaged and it hurts him to draw after decades of serializing manga. Nobody is taking this into context.
The other aspect is, who comes up with the new stories? Because I do not think the art is so bad and I have enjoyed the Zamasu arc more than in the anime for example. My only gripe is with too much action windows and kind of overdone and dry design recently.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:31 am

Gt91 wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:58 am
Chapter 63 preview

https://twitter.com/peraperayume/status ... 62081.html

Maybe merus won't fight, maybe he has another plan. Who knows.
Merus going down to earth as a Galactic Patroller instead of an angle pointed to him being a distraction rather than a fighter, so chances are he's just there to buy time for Dende and Krillin to heal Goku and Vegeta. Following that, I think we'll get an Omen Goku Vs Moro rematch while Vegeta works in the background to separate him and 7-3. Once that happens, Vegeta will most likely kill Moro as Goku takes on 7-3.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Femme Fatale Kikaza » Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:11 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:31 am
Gt91 wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:58 am
Chapter 63 preview

https://twitter.com/peraperayume/status ... 62081.html

Maybe merus won't fight, maybe he has another plan. Who knows.
Merus going down to earth as a Galactic Patroller instead of an angle pointed to him being a distraction rather than a fighter, so chances are he's just there to buy time for Dende and Krillin to heal Goku and Vegeta. Following that, I think we'll get an Omen Goku Vs Moro rematch while Vegeta works in the background to separate him and 7-3. Once that happens, Vegeta will most likely kill Moro as Goku takes on 7-3.

Wouldn't Goku just tire himself out again? I don't think Omen is going to be enough for this fight since Moro would just wait him out again.

MUI is probably the only way Goku is doing any long term damage and that's a wild card. Vegeta would probably need help distracting Moro long enough to defuse him and there's always a chance it might not work cause 7-3 doesn't have a soul and all...

I'm still hoping for team effort kill or Beerus deciding to step up to the plate.

If the Z fighters simply can't kill Moro, then Beerus is likely on earth given the presence of Merus. Beerus would likely sense the fight going completely downhill and intervene if its obvious Moro can't be killed and tries to drain Earth of its life or when Merus is tempted to break the code.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:46 am

Femme Fatale Kikaza wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:11 am
Wouldn't Goku just tire himself out again? I don't think Omen is going to be enough for this fight since Moro would just wait him out again.
Unlike before, Goku wouldn't be fighting to defeat him, but to distract him. As long as they're evenly matched, it should be enough for Vegeta to defuse him.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Femme Fatale Kikaza » Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:18 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:46 am
Femme Fatale Kikaza wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:11 am
Wouldn't Goku just tire himself out again? I don't think Omen is going to be enough for this fight since Moro would just wait him out again.
Unlike before, Goku wouldn't be fighting to defeat him, but to distract him. As long as they're evenly matched, it should be enough for Vegeta to defuse him.
And then, when everyone thinks the Z fighters can win, the writers justify Moro not being able to be separated cause 7-3 lacks a soul, leading to everyone getting screwed.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Sun Aug 09, 2020 1:20 pm

Femme Fatale Kikaza wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:18 pm
And then, when everyone thinks the Z fighters can win, the writers justify Moro not being able to be separated cause 7-3 lacks a soul, leading to everyone getting screwed.
That'll just make things repetitive. I think it's time to wrap things up and move on to the next arc.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Femme Fatale Kikaza » Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:03 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 1:20 pm
Femme Fatale Kikaza wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:18 pm
And then, when everyone thinks the Z fighters can win, the writers justify Moro not being able to be separated cause 7-3 lacks a soul, leading to everyone getting screwed.
That'll just make things repetitive. I think it's time to wrap things up and move on to the next arc.

I won't be shocked if Moro has some hidden card that causes the angel law gets broken or(I hope) Beerus joins the fight. If Moro becomes impossible to kill I cross my fingers that Beerus steps up and finally sets his sights on Moro for all the nonsense he's caused.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:07 pm

Femme Fatale Kikaza wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:03 pm
If Moro becomes impossible to kill I cross my fingers that Beerus steps up and finally sets his sights on Moro for all the nonsense he's caused.
I'd be OK if Beerus were to fight him now, but having Goku and Vegeta fight only to lose a 3rd time is just too much at this point. Whoever takes him on now should win so that we can move on to what's next.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Femme Fatale Kikaza » Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:14 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:07 pm
Femme Fatale Kikaza wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:03 pm
If Moro becomes impossible to kill I cross my fingers that Beerus steps up and finally sets his sights on Moro for all the nonsense he's caused.
I'd be OK if Beerus were to fight him now, but having Goku and Vegeta fight only to lose a 3rd time is just too much at this point. Whoever takes him on now should win so that we can move on to what's next.
I feel like Beerus is a last resort. If Moro has some final phase that ends up screwing them over I feel like Beerus would need to step up. I think they'll come close to killing him but the writers will find a way to screw it up somehow.

Honestly I hope they don't have Merus let himself get grabbed. Because Moro with angel powers would wreck everyone and Moro has too many powers and counters already.
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