"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Femme Fatale Kikaza
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Femme Fatale Kikaza » Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:02 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:46 pm
Hellspawn28 wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:42 pm
I feel like Goku is always going to be a good-hearted idiot. Goku will always find himself thinking that anyone can be good.
Everyone except Zamasu and Cell, of course. In their case, they are just irredeemable monsters and it's not even worth giving them a chance to prove otherwise.
Literally no one tried to spare Cell or talk him out of it. Gowasu tried to talk to Zamasu but that was about it but it was too late.

Goku legit told Vegeta to kill Goku Black and had Future Zamasu not intervened he would've killed him.

Moro has done NOTHING to prove he would change and yet Goku thought giving him a third chance was smart. Now Moro by the end of this chapter basically merged with the planet and Vegeta doesn't spirit fission his ass asp the galaxy gets nuked.

Moro's gotten like 3 chances, and he blew all of them. He has to die after this fight.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Xeogran » Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:08 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:46 pm
Everyone except Zamasu and Cell, of course. In their case, they are just irredeemable monsters and it's not even worth giving them a chance to prove otherwise.
Cell looked pretty redeemable all things considered. Especially seeing how some games did make use of it and put him on the good size.
But I wouldn't take it over the amazing ending of Father-Son Kamehameha.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jack Bz » Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:09 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:57 pm


Thanks for this post. I'd been casting around for a unifying theme for this arc, and this has helped me see that it's "Stolen, Earned, and Given".
Awesome, I'd had the thoughts that this is the theme they're going for for a while but I forgot about the little details such as them stopping a literal heist earlier in the arc!
Kinokima wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:00 pm
Also for the record I like Goku’s message about training. It’s similar to Vegeta telling Moro he should fight with his own power. They both come from the same place and hopefully in the end both Goku and Vegeta’s message will be why Moro lost

The issue is still Goku giving Moro a Senzu which he did not have to do. Even if Goku was more powerful than Moro anything can happen so it’s makes Goku look bad for no reason because they literally could have done this twist without that part.
Yeah, I understand that more than people annoyed at Goku's dialogue here, though I don't find it too egregious myself. If I were to change one thing about this chapter, it would be that Moro is literally on the verge of death without being healed, so Goku has to give him a senzu first.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Galan007 » Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:34 pm

There's also the fact that Moro is upwards of 10 million years old. He's still just as evil now as he was back when he fought DaiKaioshin and South Kaioshin.

I get that Goku, being a hero, prefers 'reforming' villains as opposed to killing them(albeit for his own, borderline selfish, motives of becoming more powerful):
https://i.imgur.com/Yeejfah.jpg
But dude...if the guy is still the epitome of evil after millions upon millions of years, a naive pep-talk isn't going to just snap him out of it. There's a time and a place to get on your moral soap box, and Moro clearly isn't it.

You have a Destroyer and a member of the Galactic Patrol telling you the guy needs to die, but you throw him a senzu bean and politely ask him to stop being evil instead..? And are then shocked when he is...*le gasp*...still an evil sack of shit afterward..?

Cringe.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DBTurnip » Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:29 pm

DiscountDabi wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:53 pm
After Reading the spoilers, Goku’s decision to give moro a senzu bean wasnt what allowed Moro to recover even stronger. No, it was telling Moro that Merus had Ultra Instinct. Thats what did him in, and that makes my feelings towards Goku’s characterization much much better for this chapter
wat

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DiscountDabi » Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:03 pm

DBTurnip wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:29 pm
DiscountDabi wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:53 pm
After Reading the spoilers, Goku’s decision to give moro a senzu bean wasnt what allowed Moro to recover even stronger. No, it was telling Moro that Merus had Ultra Instinct. Thats what did him in, and that makes my feelings towards Goku’s characterization much much better for this chapter
wat
Moro asked Goku who Merus was. And Goku told him that Merus was his master and the person who helped him master ultra instinct. That gave Moro the idea to use the hand to gain Merus’s power. And Goku was planing on killing Moro right afterwards.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Shineman » Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:11 pm

Cipher wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:10 am
Shineman wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:56 pm
Thanks man! Always coming in with that information. Huh... interesting to see that coloring are done by colorist teams. I always assumed that the creator does that at some point in the future, but based on what provided, it doesn't seems to be the case (similar to the colorist team in the United States for Marvel and DC).

You said that there often inconsistencies with colors for characters in the manga (and I can imagine some in the original manga run). Where there cases of characters having completely different colors between the two mediums (anime and manga)?
For Super specifically? Since the coloring tends to take its cues from the anime unless Toyotaro has done something different in a volume cover, there aren't many. However, color Super does give present-day child Trunks blue hair, as opposed to the anime's purple. (Likely prompted by Trunks' blue hair on the volume covers.) Tenshinhan also keeps his Battle of Gods outfit colors in the colored edition of the manga's Tournament of Power, likely taking cues from the Volume 9 cover.

And yet there are deviations from Toyotaro's own colored work--a completely different shade used for Super Saiyan Blue from either Toyotaro's own self-colored art or the anime, for example. Rather infamously, what are normal-colored scraps of clothing hovering around Ultra Instinct in Toyotaro's colored artwork are also colored as flecks of aura in Volumes 8 and 9.
Very interesting... It's cool to see how colors differs in these medium and even from Toyotaro himself. Thanks again for taking the time to answer these questions for me! Much appreciated.

====

Based on the summary alone, I don’t have any major issues with this development. Goku doesn’t kill people when they’re down (at least, not after the 23rd tournament arc, but I’m pretty sure Goku never kill defeated opponents before that either). Goku was tick off when Vegeta killed Butta and Recoome even though they were no longer a threat and unable to battle any longer. The only time he doesn’t showcase this kind of mercy is when the opponent is either beyond hope or extremely dangerous and doesn’t see the value of keeping them around (Cell, Bebi, Zamasu, Omega). Clearly, he seen something with Moro that “hey, if you train and didn’t steal people’s strength, you wouldn’t been in this situation.”

I think that was highlighted with the Senzu Bean situation. Moro was practically humiliated, and Goku practically condemns him for stealing other people’s power instead of using his own, then telling him to train—after despite being fully heal, it didn’t do anything to Goku. I would like to think that Moro is attempting to prove to Goku that training doesn’t mean anything as long he can take a powerful skill, seen in the case with Merus—and yet, here he is, subjecting himself to his own destruction because, oops, he didn’t bother actually doing effort. He’s proving Goku’s point—and he won’t let that stand. At least… that’s how I got from that scene anyways.

I wouldn’t be surprised if one thing or the other, the finale arc just go rogue and Moro become a black-hole sort of thing as consequences. Or Vegeta coming in and spirit fission him out of there, since Moro is raging hard at Goku right now, and no longer focus on anything else.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Tai Lung » Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:37 pm

TheMikado wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:39 pm
Tai Lung wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:02 pm
TheMikado wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:48 pm


This is literally the worst take I’ve ever seen on the episode “Heart of the Prince”

In it, Vegeta laments that his only purpose in life is to serve as a foil to show how powerful Goku is. It’s like if the most Meta takes of a character in a work ever written. Vegeta reviews his entire experience with Goku and then says EXACTLY what the audience has relegated his character to be and then decidedly determines that this will NOT be his role. In that moment Vegeta literally transcends his existence as a created fictional character and his character role. Obviously this is within the context of writing, but the point still stands. An equivalent would be Yamcha wondering if his nothing but a joke to everyone now and then deciding to do something about it.

Anyway, Vegeta’s role as father and family man who decides not to tag along with Goku at all and live completely independent of him fits far far far better with End of Z. Think about it. They hadn’t really talked in 10 years and then suddenly in Super they are hanging around each other every week. It’s weird and inconsistent from the original run across the board for all the characters. And finally Vegeta is the one who suggests fusion with Goku, placing saving the world above his own pride. An acknowledgement that he’s come full circle and an indication that the Earth is in good hands when Goku leaves.
the point of vegeta's development in super is that it is wrong to always depend on goku ... because he will not always be the winner of each battle, something that he understands on the arrival of beerus and therefore he cannot stop training now he started his rivalry again to improve being now much healthier ...

In GT he leaves his obsession with goku ... to dedicate himself to having a peaceful life but that would cost him dearly because he literally ended up being possessed and used by an enemy who overcame him for not training enough ... he realizes the mistake that He committed so he would train hard again although without many results later on ... he got the ssj4 too easy with the help of bulma

now they both have problems ...
In GT his little participation despite that he is a warrior who is always prepared ... he was humiliated even by nuova shenron at the climax of story
In super currently that vegeta hesitates so much in killing an enemy I find it worrisome makes him too similar to goku
His character arc is exactly what you described, he basically decided to give up on his Goku chasing. He made the mistake in thinking that the opposite of chasing Goku was to get lax. That was his mistake. Following Super 17 he questions why he even bothers getting stronger at all. As far as Nuova, Vegeta was already power depleted but not as bad as Goku. Goku struggles against Nuova so a depowered Vegeta wasn’t going to do much better so I really don’t consider that and embarrassment.

I also don’t understand how Vegeta got SSJ4 too easily. It’s not like it requires SSJ3. Is basically the Golden Oozuru form under control which Vegeta always has the ability to master. Goku had to have his tail pulled out to get it so it’s not like Goku didn’t have help too. Arguably Goku had a lot more help to achieve SSJ4.
Exactly vegeta is not like that ... you are thinking about gohan

because goku was considerably stronger than vegeta
he couldn't defeat gohan and goten together but goku can
He couldn't transform into ssj3
he didn't have a tail
He had no conflict to dominate his conscience

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by FortuneSSJ » Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:25 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:57 pm
Thanks for this post. I'd been casting around for a unifying theme for this arc, and this has helped me see that it's "Stolen, Earned, and Given".
I hadn't thought about these arc theme, but you came up with one that sums it up perfectly. :thumbup:
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:17 am

Jack Bz wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:48 pm
Sorry for being pedantic: but every time you mention angels, you spell it as angles, as in the angles of a triangle etc :P
:oops: I...I knew that...I did it to make sure you were paying attention to the spelling of words while reading...that's it... :oops:
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:46 pm
Everyone except Zamasu and Cell, of course. In their case, they are just irredeemable monsters and it's not even worth giving them a chance to prove otherwise.
Add GT and Z's original movie villains to that list.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by obiwan23s » Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:35 am

Looks like Vegeta saving the day is back on the menu if Moro has merged with the Earth. It's either that or "it's ok, we'll just destroy the Earth and bring it back with the Dragon Balls. We can revive everyone with the 2nd wish!"

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:38 am

obiwan23s wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:35 am
Looks like Vegeta saving the day is back on the menu if Moro has merged with the Earth. It's either that or "it's ok, we'll just destroy the Earth and bring it back with the Dragon Balls. We can revive everyone with the 2nd wish!"
I think it will definitely be a team effort, where Vegeta will separate them and Goku will (hopefully) blast him before he can try anything else.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by obiwan23s » Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:51 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:38 am
I think it will definitely be a team effort, where Vegeta will separate them and Goku will (hopefully) blast him before he can try anything else.
I would be okay with that. Goku and Vegeta have approached fighting Moro separately the whole time but now they almost have to utilize their unique strengths to beat him together. I can also see them being forced to destroy the Earth, which destroys the Earth's Dragon Balls, and the Namek Dragon Balls are inert from Moro having just used them earlier in this arc, which sets up a "Super Dragon Ball Hunt" arc to wish it all back. Or are the Super DB's inert from 17's wish at the Tournament of Power? That would be uncharted territory for Dragon Ball for sure.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:54 am

obiwan23s wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:51 am
I would be okay with that. Goku and Vegeta have approached fighting Moro separately the whole time but now they almost have to utilize their unique strengths to beat him together. I can also see them being forced to destroy the Earth, which destroys the Earth's Dragon Balls, and the Namek Dragon Balls are inert from Moro having just used them earlier in this arc, which sets up a "Super Dragon Ball Hunt" arc to wish it all back. Or are the Super DB's inert from 17's wish at the Tournament of Power? That would be uncharted territory for Dragon Ball for sure.
I think this arc will lead into the next one way or another, as Merus dying may have some impact on things moving forward.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by MCDaveG » Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:00 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:53 am
Galan007 wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:51 am
Goku can transform from base straight to MUI now.

Figured that would be the case, but still nice to have clarified.
It's waaaaaay too soon for that IMO. This just means we'll be getting yet another form sooner than later.
No, please, I was just commenting on one thread, how I hate this progression.
I was really happy with basic SSJ and it's progression, SSJ God was novelty but now we get these God Ki powerups, it's just SSJ recolor in weird colours... So we have now Red, Blue, Silver and Green for Broly and Kefla.
Leave Goku with MUI, now that's a thing and let this be the new ''SSJ'' or default he taps into...
I have kinda left One Piece for this reason as well, as I have liked the Gear Second a lot, it was something like SSJ/Kaioken but then the other gears have started to be kinda wonky.
If Dragon Ball stays with the same formula of power progression trough transformations just for new designs and toys, that will be pretty dire. It kinda is allready, tough I still like the Ultra Instinct (and I favor the design of the non mastered form, without silver hair) more than SSJGodSSJ as it is basically not a Saiyan trait and anybody can tap into it potentially.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:09 am

MCDaveG wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:00 am
No, please, I was just commenting on one thread, how I hate this progression.
The biggest issue I have is how fast they're going through some of these. SsjG was replaced in the very next movie, despite us getting very little of it the first time around. Goku has gone from having no idea how to access Omen and MUI destroying his body to now all of a sudden being able to control both. What's the rush ?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:17 am

Lol I guarantee you that the villain of the next arc will fodderize Ultra Instinct, forcing Goku to find a new level of power. The writers don't give a shit about the build-up and "mystique" of the form. Super Saiyan was meant to be the legendary transformation of the Saiyan hero who defeated the emperor Frieza, but it became fodder literally in the next arc when 18 clowned on SS Vegeta. Just wait for the same to happen to Ultra Instinct.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by MCDaveG » Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:29 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:09 am
MCDaveG wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:00 am
No, please, I was just commenting on one thread, how I hate this progression.
The biggest issue I have is how fast they're going through some of these. SsjG was replaced in the very next movie, despite us getting very little of it the first time around. Goku has gone from having no idea how to access Omen and MUI destroying his body to now all of a sudden being able to control both. What's the rush ?
Good point... yeah, SSJ got so memorable because how long it was the mainstay and in the Cell arc, they were trying to make it a fully mastered form, then Buu arc went bit Bananas by building upon Gohan's transformation as SSJ2 and Goku going further...
Since Super/Movies era came up, it is really fast and I was suprised how SSJGod was shelved as one off basically.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:40 am

MCDaveG wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:29 am
Since Super/Movies era came up, it is really fast and I was surprised how SSJGod was shelved as one off basically.
We probably would've never seen it again had it not been brought back in the manga. I think Blue should've been held off until the Black arc, with UI Omen being the only form used in the TOP, saving MUI for a later arc.
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:17 am
Super Saiyan was meant to be the legendary transformation of the Saiyan hero who defeated the emperor Frieza, but it became fodder literally in the next arc when 18 clowned on SS Vegeta. Just wait for the same to happen to Ultra Instinct.
The difference is that Vegeta didn't go get a new form, he found a way to get more out of Ssj by applying to it the same bulky muscle technique Freeza and Roshi used, same for Trunks. Goku decided to train in it and perfect it so that it didn't drain him. Even Ssj2 wasn't treated as a new form when it was introduced, it was just a more perfected version of the original Ssj form. We didn't get a truly new form until Goku went Ssj3 against Fat Buu, which was in chapter 474, but up till that point the original Ssj form was the main one since chapter 318.

For Ssj4, it wasn't introduced until GT's 35th episode, 81 episodes after Ssj3 was introduced in Z's 245th episode, and it remained GT's main form until it concluded.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by MCDaveG » Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:22 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:40 am
MCDaveG wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:29 am
Since Super/Movies era came up, it is really fast and I was surprised how SSJGod was shelved as one off basically.
We probably would've never seen it again had it not been brought back in the manga. I think Blue should've been held off until the Black arc, with UI Omen being the only form used in the TOP, saving MUI for a later arc.
I would have left the OMEN design, as for me, I like the form as an idea of being awakened, thus it can have the flare of Goku's eyes changing, but I am not a fan of it being physical transformation... but I still have really no idea how this form really works. Is it some kind of Godly transformation so you tap into the God ki or just a state of awakening?
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