"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:43 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:39 am
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:35 am
So I'm asking you again.
No, but that's not what I'm talking about. What I'm saying is that due to the massive power gap between the 2 saiyans and everyone else, the chances of anyone but them taking down the main villain are slim to none (although Future Trunks was an exception in the anime). If someone like Gohan or Piccolo started training and receiving serious attention, then we wouldn't be so sure things would be up to Goku and Vegeta to decide.
That's literally what you're claiming.

You claim everyone else but Goku and Vegeta are fodder. Yet Goku needed Frieza and 17 to beat Jiren, while Vegeta was eliminated early on in the final battle. He also needed Uub's energy to defeat Moro.

And even in the manga Goku couldn't defeat Fused Zamasu. He knew he couldn't, because Zamasu was immortal. They were banking on Fused Zamasu "defusing" before he could kill them, nothing more. Vegeta was also fodder in that fight, and admitted that Goku had surpassed him as he unlocked Perfected SSB.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by MCDaveG » Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:37 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:43 am
Matches Malone wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:39 am
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:35 am
So I'm asking you again.
No, but that's not what I'm talking about. What I'm saying is that due to the massive power gap between the 2 saiyans and everyone else, the chances of anyone but them taking down the main villain are slim to none (although Future Trunks was an exception in the anime). If someone like Gohan or Piccolo started training and receiving serious attention, then we wouldn't be so sure things would be up to Goku and Vegeta to decide.
That's literally what you're claiming.

You claim everyone else but Goku and Vegeta are fodder. Yet Goku needed Frieza and 17 to beat Jiren, while Vegeta was eliminated early on in the final battle. He also needed Uub's energy to defeat Moro.

And even in the manga Goku couldn't defeat Fused Zamasu. He knew he couldn't, because Zamasu was immortal. They were banking on Fused Zamasu "defusing" before he could kill them, nothing more. Vegeta was also fodder in that fight, and admitted that Goku had surpassed him as he unlocked Perfected SSB.
The Freeza there is valid... but really, 17 just hid under rock. Uub just raised hand, so his contribution was much like Satan's in Buu arc, Monaka was just standing there. So yeah, on paper, the final standing one wins, but what we here with Matches Malone miss, is seeing for example Gohan getting some spotlight that is integral to the story, training, learning new techniques and fight on par for example and not like Yamcha in the anime, that kind of won the baseball match because he got caught in the explosion and was just lying there in perfect spot. There is nobody really interesting from the main cast besides Goku and Vegeta except for ToP and Trunks in his arc, who also didn't do much by the way.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DiscountDabi » Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:47 am

So I have a feeling this arcs power will be more focused on Speed than it does just raw strength given Granolah’s sniping skill and Goku having Ultra Instinct (And as a fan of power-scaling I have to say I hope we get a semi decent feat this arc as besides scaling from the TOP we didn’t get that much in the Moro arc), I’m inclined to believe that whatever technique Beerus will be teaching Vegeta will probably be in line with that. Something that focuses on speed.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:52 am

OrangeBanana wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:31 am
This is going to be such a dumb post but whatever.
I was looking at Granola's design and I am probably wrong but his design looks like it was made with a transformation in mind. I can totally see his hair either growing in length or becoming sharper. I've never designed characters so I don't know if this kind of stuff is planned or at least considered in the creative process.

Compared to half the stuff we talk about on here this isn’t dumb at all. It is an interesting observation

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:05 pm

MCDaveG wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:37 am
There is nobody really interesting from the main cast besides Goku and Vegeta except for ToP and Trunks in his arc, who also didn't do much by the way.
Sure, but you just explained why they're secondary cast members. Their job is to support the leads specifically because they're not all that interesting or layered on their own, so they wouldn't be able to carry a story in any centralized capacity. As a writer, you could give them screentime to make certain corners of the fanbase happy, but you could also recognize that doing so easily runs counter to their intended roles.

Gohan is my favorite example to bring up. Dragon Ball's whole modus operandi is that it's a story about weird selfish assholes unintentionally doing heroic things in the end: Goku only cares about fighting the best and frequently lands himself and others in hot water as a result, and that is the point; Vegeta is a murderous barbarian who slowly grows to care for people and builds a family while playing the straight man to Goku's antics. Both of Super's leads have more depth than anyone in the cast, which is why they're the leads, but more importantly, they're not heroes.

Gohan, on the other hand, is quite literally a straight-laced superhero; he's DB's Clark Kent. He doesn't fit into its subversive worldview, so it's no coincidence that his most interesting scenes (in the original manga, that is, since he's not remotely interesting in Super) are the ones where his innocent personality is written to play off of less innocent characters. He's so fundamentally banal on his own that Toriyama specifically commented on coming to the realization he didn't work as the main protagonist. And for good reason.

I don't buy it when fans say these characters "deserve" more focus. They're frankly not entitled to it. If anything deserves extensive exploration, it's the guest characters and their dynamic with Goku and Vegeta.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by MCDaveG » Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:13 pm

The Undying wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:05 pm
MCDaveG wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:37 am
There is nobody really interesting from the main cast besides Goku and Vegeta except for ToP and Trunks in his arc, who also didn't do much by the way.
Sure, but you just explained why they're secondary cast members. Their job is to support the leads specifically because they're not all that interesting or layered on their own, so they wouldn't be able to carry a story in any centralized capacity. As a writer, you could give them screentime to make certain corners of the fanbase happy, but you could also recognize that doing so easily runs counter to their intended roles.

Gohan is my favorite example to bring up. Dragon Ball's whole modus operandi is that it's a story about weird selfish assholes unintentionally doing heroic things in the end: Goku only cares about fighting the best and frequently lands himself and others in hot water as a result, and that is the point; Vegeta is a murderous barbarian who slowly grows to care for people and builds a family while playing the straight man to Goku's antics. Both of Super's leads have more depth than anyone in the cast, which is why they're the leads, but more importantly, they're not heroes.

Gohan is quite literally a straight-laced superhero; he's DB's Clark Kent. He doesn't fit into its subversive worldview, so it's no coincidence that his most interesting scenes (in the original manga, that is, since he's not remotely interesting in Super) are the ones where his innocent personality is written to play off of less innocent characters. He's so fundamentally banal on his own that Toriyama specifically commented on coming to the realization he didn't work as the main protagonist. And for good reason.

I don't buy it when fans say these characters "deserve" more focus. They're frankly not entitled to it. If anything deserves extensive exploration, it's the guest characters and their dynamic with Goku and Vegeta.
Yes, but these characters were focus and look at One Piece for example, there are no wasted characters and they are also part of the plot and not just shoehorned in for sake of variety... but in Dragon Ball, it got repetitive. Goku is the same, makes the same jokes, we know what to expect from him, besides getting possible new haircolour. Same with Vegeta. Krillin is family man afraid to fight, Yamcha is useles blow-up character, Trunks and Goten are Gotenks basically, who gets spanked or something. Why do they even use them, except for pushing the arc for longer run.

Dragon Ball is kinda old and uninteresting to me at this point. Besides Grand Kaioshin and Merus, Moro arc bored me to death.
So I am really looking forward to Granola and hope it doesn't dissapoint.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:52 pm

The problem with DB is that it's showing its age. Even One Piece made sure to include rules in its logic to ensure you don't have the problem that DB currently has. It's something that modern shonen does. By having a complex rule set, it keeps the main character from being overpowered, as well as allowing supporting characters to have their moments to shine.

DBS can't really break the DB foundation, so it's stuck with the ever problematic power creep.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:55 pm

I pretty much agree with The Undying re: Gohan as a leader in the ToP.

The other major issue with Gohan being pitched as a leader, aside from the fact that Toriyama had no role in that decision, is that he's a DOOFUS. He's a klutz. He's oblivious. Toei was like "Gohan is a scholar, therefore he's smart, therefore he'd make intelligent tactical decisions, combine that with the fact that he's really strong and less wacky than Goku, therefore he'd make a good leader!" This ignores everything we've seen of this grown up version of Gohan, including his antics at school, blowing it against Boo, dropping the Potara, accidentally deflecting a bullet into Videl, losing his gi when Freeza arrives, and his personality in-between. Gohan has some "badass" moments, and he plays well with Piccolo in the GPP arc, but none of that screams "leader" to me. That doesn't mean he's not funny, kind, adorable, etc. In the Future Trunks arc, both the manga and anime got that part right (the manga moreso, and it at least shows him taking steps toward being more responsible, but you get it).

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by CashmanX » Fri Jan 22, 2021 2:20 pm

My big problem now is the series suddenly having mortals (sans Broly because he's a freak) popping out of the woodwork in a series where half of Freeza's original army where strong enough to nuke continents and move so fast they're invisible. Even in the original manga, the villains after Freeza didn't have any henchmen and were either literal deities, eldritch abominations or artificially created horrors.

Where the hell do you go after that?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Fri Jan 22, 2021 2:50 pm

CashmanX wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 2:20 pm
My big problem now is the series suddenly having mortals (sans Broly because he's a freak) popping out of the woodwork in a series where half of Freeza's original army where strong enough to nuke continents and move so fast they're invisible. Even in the original manga, the villains after Freeza didn't have any henchmen and were either literal deities, eldritch abominations or artificially created horrors.

Where the hell do you go after that?
I mean power creep has always been a problem with Dragon Ball. Even more so now that the series is continuing past its natural conclusion. Characters get too strong too quickly then you have to make opponents get as strong as well otherwise there would be nothing for Goku to overcome

Although to be fair Granolah at least is not that strong at this point. I assume circumstances will make him stronger we will just have to wait and see if those circumstances are believable.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:49 pm

The Undying wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:56 am
As for the Broly film, it was about the contrast between Goku, Vegeta, Broly and their fathers -- specifically in how their parenthood influenced the juxtaposition between Broly's imprisonment and Goku's freedom, even though Goku and Vegeta were ultimately unaware of their fathers' influence (which is very much in line with DB's worldview of Goku's unwitting/unintended heroism). Gohan would have contributed absolutely nothing to the themes of that story because he doesn't share that same full-fledged Saiyan commonality, so throwing him a bone just to appease his fanbase wouldn't have benefited the narrative at all.
I actually think DBroly is a bit broader in its depiction of fathers and sons. There's a reason King Cold is in the film. It isn't just about the Saiyans. Within that framework, you could have Gohan and Trunks involved, since they're the sons of two of the lead characters.

However, that's a slightly different story and takes some of the focus off Broly as well as bloat the runtime some. Ultimately, it's probably not a worthwhile thing to try to do in order to keep the film tight.
Kinokima wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 2:50 pm
CashmanX wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 2:20 pm
My big problem now is the series suddenly having mortals (sans Broly because he's a freak) popping out of the woodwork in a series where half of Freeza's original army where strong enough to nuke continents and move so fast they're invisible. Even in the original manga, the villains after Freeza didn't have any henchmen and were either literal deities, eldritch abominations or artificially created horrors.

Where the hell do you go after that?
I mean power creep has always been a problem with Dragon Ball.
That's a lazy explanation.

Look at the Broly movie. It's made explicitly clear that guys on Paragus' level are basically unheard of in the universe at that point when Cheelai and Lemo are out scouting for recruits. Paragus is barely stronger than Nappa in terms of power level. That's Toriyama reiterating that the characters we follow are freaks and that there aren't many threats out there.

Good writing would be then to acknowledge this and make a case for why your new villain can be on par with our main characters. It's much too early to tell how Toyotaro plans to do that, but he clearly does since a point is made that these characters are leagues and leagues below Frieza.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:11 pm

TKA wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:49 pm


That's a lazy explanation.

Look at the Broly movie. It's made explicitly clear that guys on Paragus' level are basically unheard of in the universe at that point when Cheelai and Lemo are out scouting for recruits. Paragus is barely stronger than Nappa in terms of power level. That's Toriyama reiterating that the characters we follow are freaks and that there aren't many threats out there.

Good writing would be then to acknowledge this and make a case for why your new villain can be on par with our main characters. It's much too early to tell how Toyotaro plans to do that, but he clearly does since a point is made that these characters are leagues and leagues below Frieza.
It’s not a lazy explanation but the truth . I never implied there were tons of super strong characters in the DB Universe. There is just always a new one showing up every arc. Paragus isn’t the main antagonist of the story. So who cares that he isn’t stronger than Nappa. He isn’t the one Goku and Vegeta is fighting. In every arc there is suddenly a new antagonist that reaches an impossible level that we never heard of before. It’s the basic formula of Dragon Ball

And I am not really sure why you are correcting me. In the very same post I said Granolah at this moment is below Freeza’s level but will probably reach beyond Goku’s level in the future. The tag line even says a new powerful warrior will be born or something to that effect. Maybe it’s not referring to Granolah but someone else. Either way there is going to be another “Freak of nature” as you say coming in this arc.

I also acknowledged that we will have to wait and see if circumstances of why are believable or not. So I never said there is not an explanation of why these characters are so strong. But explanations why there is suddenly always a very new strong character in the story doesn’t mean DB doesn’t have an issue with power creep.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:56 pm

One observation from the recent chapter...it's hard not to draw a parallel between the COVID vaccine and the Oracle Fish's vitamin injection. Toriyama adjusted Battle of Gods after the earthquake of 2011, so I wonder if this inclusion came from a similar place. There are surely kids reading DBS that are afraid of shots, so maybe Tori/Toyo wanted to portray it in a comedic light in order to make it less scary?

Maybe. Even so, the Oracle Fish isn't particularly well-behaved, so it's not much of a teaching moment...

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ChronoTwigger » Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:51 pm

batistabus wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:56 pm
One observation from the recent chapter...it's hard not to draw a parallel between the COVID vaccine and the Oracle Fish's vitamin injection. Toriyama adjusted Battle of Gods after the earthquake of 2011, so I wonder if this inclusion came from a similar place. There are surely kids reading DBS that are afraid of shots, so maybe Tori/Toyo wanted to portray it in a comedic light in order to make it less scary?

Maybe. Even so, the Oracle Fish isn't particularly well-behaved, so it's not much of a teaching moment...
Kids will be not vaxed for covid, due the quasi null effect on them. Maybe in 2022.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:26 pm

batistabus wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:56 pm
One observation from the recent chapter...it's hard not to draw a parallel between the COVID vaccine and the Oracle Fish's vitamin injection. Toriyama adjusted Battle of Gods after the earthquake of 2011, so I wonder if this inclusion came from a similar place. There are surely kids reading DBS that are afraid of shots, so maybe Tori/Toyo wanted to portray it in a comedic light in order to make it less scary?

Maybe. Even so, the Oracle Fish isn't particularly well-behaved, so it's not much of a teaching moment...
Perhaps the COVID Vaccine was on their minds

Although Japan is behind the curve and has not started vaccinating anyone yet

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:53 pm

Y’all gon’ get microchipped and lose your genders. Something something George Soros and Bill Gates. Cultural Marxism!
Kinokima wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:11 pm

Words
You wrote a whole lot that didn’t really pertain to the point I was making. Maybe I was unclear.

A lazy writer would do it the Toei way and just have really strong guys out in space, not unlike literally any of their movie villains who just come from out of nowhere. This obviously raises questions like “where were these guys when Frieza was around,” and so on.

Now when Toyotaro introduced a new villain with Moro, he gave an explanation as to why Moro is stronger than Frieza, why he wasn’t around and how he can be a threat. It’s not something for you to “turn your brain off” to, unlike, say, a Lord Slug or a Cooler.

There will be a reason that Granola (or whoever) is a threat, instead of “just ‘cuz”.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:16 pm

TKA wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:53 pm
Y’all gon’ get microchipped and lose your genders. Something something George Soros and Bill Gates. Cultural Marxism!
Kinokima wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:11 pm

Words
You wrote a whole lot that didn’t really pertain to the point I was making. Maybe I was unclear.

A lazy writer would do it the Toei way and just have really strong guys out in space, not unlike literally any of their movie villains who just come from out of nowhere. This obviously raises questions like “where were these guys when Frieza was around,” and so on.

Now when Toyotaro introduced a new villain with Moro, he gave an explanation as to why Moro is stronger than Frieza, why he wasn’t around and how he can be a threat. It’s not something for you to “turn your brain off” to, unlike, say, a Lord Slug or a Cooler.

There will be a reason that Granola (or whoever) is a threat, instead of “just ‘cuz”.

Then I am not sure why you replied to my 1st post. I never said Toyotaro was lazy or that there would be no explanation. Even in my first post I said we will have to wait and see the reason why Granolah will become so strong and if it will be a good one or not.

I was just saying power creep is a long standing issue in DB. I don’t think this is worth debating about so I’ll end it there.


On another note I agree with you on your first point .

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by CashmanX » Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:55 pm

Kinokima wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:16 pm
TKA wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:53 pm

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Sat Jan 23, 2021 8:02 am

I hope that the Heaters will have an interesting racial ability too tbh.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Sat Jan 23, 2021 11:30 am

Maybe I don’t pay enough attention to discourse here, but that oozaru in Granola’s nightmare has Bardock’s scar in the same place Bardock has it.

If the big reveal is that Goku’s father ruined this guy’s life, that has the potential to be very hackneyed and trite.
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