"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Super's manga written by Toriyama drawn by Toyotarō

Post by Thanos » Wed May 20, 2015 7:04 am

Analytical Delusion wrote:Hm, wonder why SSJ Goku has blonde hair again. Also has his old gi, though maybe the outfit from the new movie might be too tough to draw very often. Perhaps Super will take place immediately following Buu after all?

I could be reading too much into it though. Might just be stock character art.
Well, the "Dragon Ball Kai" logo is right there next to him, and the same image was used in early promotion for Buu Kai episodes, so that's what I'm going for.
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Re: Super's manga written by Toriyama drawn by Toyotarō

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Wed May 20, 2015 7:59 am

TripleRach wrote:So I think there's some confusion here, possibly due to ANN's wording. Toriyama is credited as 原作 (original work), which basically equates to "creator." As in creator of the Dragon Ball franchise in general. It's how he's credited in all the 80s/90s anime episodes and movies. He's also credited that way for Episode of Bardock and SD, while Naho Ooishi is credited as "manga" for both of those. And it's the exact same thing here, but with Toyotarou credited as "manga."

We know that Toriyama has some level of creative involvement with the Super anime. But the thread title and opening post here imply that this manga will have a more direct artist/writer collaboration along the same lines as Death Note's Ohba and Obata, and there's nothing to suggest that will be the case here. Note that Kanzenshuu's article about this doesn't mention anything of the sort.
Producer Osamu Nozaki says in the press release that Super is written by Akira Toriyama.

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Re: Super's manga by Toyotarō

Post by VegettoEX » Wed May 20, 2015 8:42 am

Clarification even more hugely necessary here, which we can do now that there are credits in Japanese on the Super website.

Rachel is absolutely correct in her explanation about 原作 (gensaku); it simply means "original author" and it's the credit given to, in cases like this, the person who is responsible for creating the series. Akira Toriyama gets that credit on EVERYTHING that is EVER PRODUCED for the franchise, regardless of whether or not he ever glanced at it before it got shoved out the door. He gets it for the manga, he gets it for the movies, he gets it for DBGT, he gets it for the video games, etc.

It's important to pay attention when that title changes or when something else gets tacked onto it. Here are some very relevant examples, which I promise lead up to Super:

For the 2008 Jump Super Anime Tour Special, we know that it's based on an idea/story from Toriyama. What does that mean, though? How is he credited versus what other people are credited with? Well, like with everything else, Toriyama gets the 原作 (gensaku) credit, as explained above. He also gets an "Original Draft" credit which is 原案 (gen'an). That doesn't mean he "wrote it", though. The actual script/scenario (脚本 or kyakuhon) is credited to Takao Koyama. Much like the older DBZ movies, it's Koyama who "wrote" that special based on ideas and plot points originally provided by Toriyama. We don't really know HOW MUCH he contributed, but that's the breakdown.

Then you get something like Episode of Bardock. Naho Ooishi is credited with the "manga". She wrote it and illustrated it; pretty simple right there. Toriyama did get a credit on this one, though, and it's slightly different than usual: 監修 (kanshū), which is "Supervisor" or "Editorial Supervisor". It's really important to point something out about that title, though: he's been given it before, and with things he had absolutely nothing to do with beyond simply being who he is. A good example Herms always points out is "Dr. Slump Returns for a Little Bit", a manga that was written by Takao Koyama and illustrated by Katsuyoshi Nakatsuru. So we know Toriyama designed Chilled, but with the credit he was given, it's pretty likely that he didn't do much more than that. It's a combination of an honorary title combined with the occasional "here's a thing to use".

Revival of "F" was a big one recently. For that, Toriyama got credits of: 原作・脚本・キャラクターデザイン. That's "Original Author" like normal, then also the "Scenario" or script for the film, and finally the "Character Designs". That's all really self explanatory. It was big involvement and on a deep level. Now, we of course have since learned that for things like the fight scenes he basically wrote "and then there's a big fight; good luck with that"... but still, he more or less wrote the entire script for the film!

That all being said...

For Super, Toriyama is given a couple key credits on the official website. The first one is the basic ol' 原作 ("Original Author"). He also gets a ストーリー&キャラクター原案 credit, which is "Story & Characters: Draft" (or "Original Draft"). Note that key addition there: 原案. It's not that he's being credited with the seemingly FINAL story and characters (like he was for the Freeza movie), but rather, the original draft of them. Their concepts. Their origins.

If you ask me, Toriyama's day-to-day (or rather, episode-to-episode) involvement isn't going to be as big as people think it is. Maybe it's more than stuff has been in the past, but the fact that he's got that 原案 in his credit should speak volumes.
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Re: Super's manga by Toyotarō

Post by Araki » Wed May 20, 2015 11:21 am

VegettoEX wrote:For Super, Toriyama is given a couple key credits on the official website. The first one is the basic ol' 原作 ("Original Author"). He also gets a ストーリー&キャラクター原案 credit, which is "Story & Characters: Draft" (or "Original Draft"). Note that key addition there: 原案. It's not that he's being credited with the seemingly FINAL story and characters (like he was for the Freeza movie), but rather, the original draft of them. Their concepts. Their origins.

If you ask me, Toriyama's day-to-day (or rather, episode-to-episode) involvement isn't going to be as big as people think it is. Maybe it's more than stuff has been in the past, but the fact that he's got that 原案 in his credit should speak volumes.
That should be a given, as there's no way he would personally write every episode (no one does that for a long running show), even series composition for a tv anime is probably something out of his skills. So he can't be credited with anything bigger, at the very best he could act as an episode writer.

What i always found reasonable to expect is that he gave the staff an original idea to work with, and then remained in touch for any additional help he could give. But that probably means he'll be more hands on than usual, maybe supervising the results like he did with Battle of Gods, but definitely no FnF.
Last edited by Araki on Wed May 20, 2015 11:26 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Super's manga by Toyotarō

Post by DragonBalllKaiHD » Wed May 20, 2015 11:25 am

It says in your article that Dragon Ball Super is overseen by Toriyama.

Of course, he will always be labeled as Original Author for anything and everything related to Dragon Ball, but he was also heavily involved in the past 3 years. He obviously wrote the scripts for the last 2 films. Aren't we forgetting that he rekindled his interest in the franchise, largely thanks to Evolution?

It may not be the level of involvement al'a Resurrection 'F', but he most likely just oversees the project and has a final say. The fact that Evolution failed on every so many level probably will make him make sure Dragon Ball Super will be every bit as successful as the current film. Even he was not impressed with how Battle of Gods was written, and made Toriyama changed some things.
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Re: Super's manga by Toyotarō

Post by ArchedThunder » Wed May 20, 2015 8:55 pm

Araki wrote:
VegettoEX wrote:For Super, Toriyama is given a couple key credits on the official website. The first one is the basic ol' 原作 ("Original Author"). He also gets a ストーリー&キャラクター原案 credit, which is "Story & Characters: Draft" (or "Original Draft"). Note that key addition there: 原案. It's not that he's being credited with the seemingly FINAL story and characters (like he was for the Freeza movie), but rather, the original draft of them. Their concepts. Their origins.

If you ask me, Toriyama's day-to-day (or rather, episode-to-episode) involvement isn't going to be as big as people think it is. Maybe it's more than stuff has been in the past, but the fact that he's got that 原案 in his credit should speak volumes.
That should be a given, as there's no way he would personally write every episode (no one does that for a long running show), even series composition for a tv anime is probably something out of his skills. So he can't be credited with anything bigger, at the very best he could act as an episode writer.

What i always found reasonable to expect is that he gave the staff an original idea to work with, and then remained in touch for any additional help he could give. But that probably means he'll be more hands on than usual, maybe supervising the results like he did with Battle of Gods, but definitely no FnF.
Yeah, Toriyama will probably be doing the broad strokes, he'll come up with what is going to happen in an arc, who the characters are and where they came from as well as their designs, but the blanks will be filled in by other writers. It'll be interesting to see if he will write some of the episodes though, I could see him writing some of the bigger and important episodes here and there.

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Re: Super's manga by Toyotarō

Post by Basaku » Wed May 20, 2015 11:07 pm

Chioka Kimitoshi is being praised by everyone who's into anime left & right. Assuming they're right, I hope his and Toriyama's collaboration produce highest results in S possible. As genius as Toriyama can be, he definitely benefits from other strong creative minds around him.

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Re: Super's manga by Toyotarō

Post by Cetra » Thu May 21, 2015 1:03 pm

I can already smell comments of people all over the world how the show is irrelevant because they didn't like it and found out the involvement of Toriyama-san was not as much as they thought. And when they liked it, the involvement is enough.

I personally cannot wait for those new episodes.
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Re: Super's manga by Toyotarō

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu May 21, 2015 1:25 pm

Cetra wrote:I can already smell comments of people all over the world how the show is irrelevant because they didn't like it and found out the involvement of Toriyama-san was not as much as they thought. And when they liked it, the involvement is enough.

I personally cannot wait for those new episodes.
As long as the show is good, that's all that matters to me, regardless of how much Toriyama may be involved.

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Re: Super's manga by Toyotarō

Post by DBZ_Lee » Thu May 21, 2015 1:43 pm

To be honest, following the initial announcement, when the Fuji TV producer said Toriyama provided him with "the plot" that was quite telling with me.
I think it's a case of Toriyama giving the overall plot - deciding what events happen, and when, but Toei's creative writing team will, as someone said earlier in the thread "fill in the blanks" so to speak.

There was never going to be a scenario where Toriyama would write the Story for each and every episode, as that's as good as writing weekly manga - from which he is now retired.

I do believe that he will be available for Toei to ask him for advice - perhaps with things like "we've reached this point in the Series, how did you want this scene to go?" and this scene was part of the overall plot he provided them with.

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Re: Super's manga by Toyotarō

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Fri May 22, 2015 3:29 am

VegettoEX wrote:Clarification even more hugely necessary here, which we can do now that there are credits in Japanese on the Super website.

Rachel is absolutely correct in her explanation about 原作 (gensaku); it simply means "original author" and it's the credit given to, in cases like this, the person who is responsible for creating the series. Akira Toriyama gets that credit on EVERYTHING that is EVER PRODUCED for the franchise, regardless of whether or not he ever glanced at it before it got shoved out the door. He gets it for the manga, he gets it for the movies, he gets it for DBGT, he gets it for the video games, etc.

It's important to pay attention when that title changes or when something else gets tacked onto it. Here are some very relevant examples, which I promise lead up to Super:

For the 2008 Jump Super Anime Tour Special, we know that it's based on an idea/story from Toriyama. What does that mean, though? How is he credited versus what other people are credited with? Well, like with everything else, Toriyama gets the 原作 (gensaku) credit, as explained above. He also gets an "Original Draft" credit which is 原案 (gen'an). That doesn't mean he "wrote it", though. The actual script/scenario (脚本 or kyakuhon) is credited to Takao Koyama. Much like the older DBZ movies, it's Koyama who "wrote" that special based on ideas and plot points originally provided by Toriyama. We don't really know HOW MUCH he contributed, but that's the breakdown.

Then you get something like Episode of Bardock. Naho Ooishi is credited with the "manga". She wrote it and illustrated it; pretty simple right there. Toriyama did get a credit on this one, though, and it's slightly different than usual: 監修 (kanshū), which is "Supervisor" or "Editorial Supervisor". It's really important to point something out about that title, though: he's been given it before, and with things he had absolutely nothing to do with beyond simply being who he is. A good example Herms always points out is "Dr. Slump Returns for a Little Bit", a manga that was written by Takao Koyama and illustrated by Katsuyoshi Nakatsuru. So we know Toriyama designed Chilled, but with the credit he was given, it's pretty likely that he didn't do much more than that. It's a combination of an honorary title combined with the occasional "here's a thing to use".

Revival of "F" was a big one recently. For that, Toriyama got credits of: 原作・脚本・キャラクターデザイン. That's "Original Author" like normal, then also the "Scenario" or script for the film, and finally the "Character Designs". That's all really self explanatory. It was big involvement and on a deep level. Now, we of course have since learned that for things like the fight scenes he basically wrote "and then there's a big fight; good luck with that"... but still, he more or less wrote the entire script for the film!

That all being said...

For Super, Toriyama is given a couple key credits on the official website. The first one is the basic ol' 原作 ("Original Author"). He also gets a ストーリー&キャラクター原案 credit, which is "Story & Characters: Draft" (or "Original Draft"). Note that key addition there: 原案. It's not that he's being credited with the seemingly FINAL story and characters (like he was for the Freeza movie), but rather, the original draft of them. Their concepts. Their origins.

If you ask me, Toriyama's day-to-day (or rather, episode-to-episode) involvement isn't going to be as big as people think it is. Maybe it's more than stuff has been in the past, but the fact that he's got that 原案 in his credit should speak volumes.
Do you know if he had a kyakuhon credit for Dragon Ball Z or Battle of Gods?
DBZ_Lee wrote:To be honest, following the initial announcement, when the Fuji TV producer said Toriyama provided him with "the plot" that was quite telling with me.
I think it's a case of Toriyama giving the overall plot - deciding what events happen, and when, but Toei's creative writing team will, as someone said earlier in the thread "fill in the blanks" so to speak.

There was never going to be a scenario where Toriyama would write the Story for each and every episode, as that's as good as writing weekly manga - from which he is now retired.

I do believe that he will be available for Toei to ask him for advice - perhaps with things like "we've reached this point in the Series, how did you want this scene to go?" and this scene was part of the overall plot he provided them with.
He has said that he enjoys writing the story, as long as he doesn't have to draw it, so I don't see any reason he wouldn't want to do for Super what he did for RoF. I'm hoping he will at least contribute some of the character interactions and dialogue, because no one does it like Toriyama.

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Re: Super's manga by Toyotarō

Post by fps_anth » Fri May 22, 2015 4:00 am

nevermind!

/oldart
Last edited by fps_anth on Fri May 22, 2015 4:10 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Super's manga by Toyotarō

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Fri May 22, 2015 4:04 am

That was from promotional art for Toyotaro's Resurrection F adaptation.

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Re: Super's manga by Toyotarō

Post by fps_anth » Fri May 22, 2015 4:09 am

TheDevilsCorpse wrote:That was from promotional art for Toyotaro's Resurrection F adaptation.

Image
welp. seemed too out of nowhere to be legit :P

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Re: Super's manga by Toyotarō

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Fri May 22, 2015 4:13 am

It could still be Goku's design in Super if it is indeed taking place after Resurrection F. It just wasn't created for his adaptation of Super. :D
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Re: Super's manga by Toyotarō

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sun May 24, 2015 2:11 pm

VegettoEX wrote:Then you get something like Episode of Bardock. Naho Ooishi is credited with the "manga". She wrote it and illustrated it; pretty simple right there. Toriyama did get a credit on this one, though, and it's slightly different than usual: 監修 (kanshū), which is "Supervisor" or "Editorial Supervisor". It's really important to point something out about that title, though: he's been given it before, and with things he had absolutely nothing to do with beyond simply being who he is. A good example Herms always points out is "Dr. Slump Returns for a Little Bit", a manga that was written by Takao Koyama and illustrated by Katsuyoshi Nakatsuru. So we know Toriyama designed Chilled, but with the credit he was given, it's pretty likely that he didn't do much more than that. It's a combination of an honorary title combined with the occasional "here's a thing to use".
What are these other things?

As for the Dr. Slump example, do we know for a fact that he had absolutely nothing to do with it, even though he got that credit?

BTW, Toriyama also designed the inhabitants of Planet Plant for EoB.
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Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Super's manga by Toyotarō

Post by soulnova » Sun May 24, 2015 7:37 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote: BTW, Toriyama also designed the inhabitants of Planet Plant for EoB.
Where can I find confirmation of this? Link to Interview or statement?
Check out Journey's End, a short story of Goku and Vegeta's final days. "Time is running out for the last two Saiyans"

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Re: Super's manga by Toyotarō

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Sun May 24, 2015 7:57 pm

soulnova wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:BTW, Toriyama also designed the inhabitants of Planet Plant for EoB.
Where can I find confirmation of this? Link to Interview or statement?
His designs are included in the Chogashu artbook. I'll look and see if I still have the picture I provided last time...

Here:
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Re: Super's manga by Toyotarō

Post by soulnova » Sun May 24, 2015 8:05 pm

Thanks! That certainly helps a lot.
Check out Journey's End, a short story of Goku and Vegeta's final days. "Time is running out for the last two Saiyans"

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Re: Super's manga by Toyotarō

Post by Analytical Delusion » Mon May 25, 2015 1:25 am

Thanks VegettoEX for the great comprehensive breakdown!
UpFromTheSkies wrote:Do you know if he had a kyakuhon credit for Dragon Ball Z or Battle of Gods?
From the Kanzenshuu BoG page:

原作・ストーリー・キャラクターデザイン
Original Author, Story, & Character Design
鳥山 明
Akira Toriyama

he doesn't:

脚本
Scenario
渡辺雄介
Yūsuke Watanabe

Nobody seems to get "原案 " credit (unless I'm missing it).

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