Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Pannaliciour]

But isn't stated in the manga: ssjb >ssjg (chapter 5)

[dbgtFO]

But isn't stated in the manga: ssjb >ssjg (chapter 5)

Yes, every relevant media except the movie in which the forms debuted flat out state SSGSS or SSB, if you like, is stronger than SSG.

[Pannaliciour]

Did I mis something? What part of the movie did say ssjg >ssjb?

Or perhaps you mean it did not state anything (ssjg > ssjb or ssjb>ssjg?

[Bullza]

Well they didn't show how they become SSJB so there's nothing interesting to talk about this week either. I'm interested to know what Whis said though about that scene.

[dbzfan7]

No 1.3 million bullcrap line, so rejoice in that case, even if everything still wasn't in shambles already .

[dbgtFO]

Did I mis something? What part of the movie did say ssjg >ssjb?

Or perhaps you mean it did not state anything (ssjg > ssjb or ssjb>ssjg?

Yes, exactly. It just states "[he's] a Super Saiyan, that is a Saiyan that has the power of Super Saiyan God", making it sound like SSG=SSGSS, rather than either form being inherently superior, whereas everything else blatantly states SSG < SSB.

[Khin]

No 1.3 million bullcrap line, so rejoice in that case, even if everything still wasn't in shambles already .

Now all thats left is that stupid Sorbet scene.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

It just states "[he's] a Super Saiyan, that is a Saiyan that has the power of Super Saiyan God", making it sound like SSG=SSGSS

It doesn't necessarily mean this though. The exact same statement was made along with a SSG < SSB statement in the video-game DBZ: Dokkan Battle.

[FuriusMarius]

really is more easy than it looks...

Super Saiyan > Saiyan
Super Saiyan (God Super Saiyan) > Super Saiyan God.

Super saiyan god is just the new base state for Goku and Vegeta... they absorb the god power... that means in normal state they have the same power more or less of the super saiyan god.

[dbgtFO]

It just states "[he's] a Super Saiyan, that is a Saiyan that has the power of Super Saiyan God", making it sound like SSG=SSGSS

It doesn't necessarily mean this though. The exact same statement was made along with a SSG < SSB statement in the video-game DBZ: Dokkan Battle.

Indeed it was, but them repeating Toriyama's only known explanation of SSGB, doesn't mean that the statement was always supposed to mean that. If they can stick with Goku < Super Buu and yet still later go off-script and claim Kid Buu > everyone, then I'm having a hard time of giving them the benefit of the doubt.
Granted it's Toriyama's fault for not being that clear. Toei & co. don't "suffer" from the same subtleness as Toriyama and just state things flat out. It doesn't help that the japanese language is so frustratingly ambigous, that Goku's line can be translated as "the SS of a saiyan, that has the power of SSG," which blatantly supports SSG < SSB.
Okay I'm not too sure about that, but I think heard that somewhere..
In any case getting into an argument about the wording of stuff, when I don't even understand the language in the first place, is a bit of waste of time, so I'm just going to leave it that, but still wonder why Super Saiyan is implied to be a big power-up for them by the Oracle Fish, if base ~ SS ~ SSG prior to SSGSS.

[buutenks]

I'm sure ssj blue is above ssj god.Since in super when goku went to beeru's temple his normal ssj form was already equal to ssj god.

[Noah]

In this episode Whis seems to know about SSGSS transformation

By theory could be either way:

SSGSS > SSJG (More plausible)

SSGSS = SSJG (The difference is the first one is a permanent instead of a temporary form)


"Saiyan Beyond God" probably might be not a thing in DBS, I think.

Freeza one shotted Base Gohan in his 1st form and yet this proves that:

Saiyan Beyond God Goku > = Super Saiyan God Goku?

Final Form Freeza ROF > Boo-han?

Not really

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Indeed it was, but them repeating Toriyama's only known explanation of SSGB, doesn't mean that the statement was always supposed to mean that. If they can stick with Goku < Super Buu and yet still later go off-script and claim Kid Buu > everyone, then I'm having a hard time of giving them the benefit of the doubt.

My point is that the statement can't be interpreted exclusively as SSG = SSB. It isn't like with Boo's forms in the anime, where there is an obvious contradiction. The line either means that SSG = SSB, or it isn't talking about battle powers at all, just about the power of Super Saiyan God, like base Goku has the power of Super Saiyan God, yet he isn't exactly as strong as SSG.

As for Toriyama's intention, I find it hard to believe that he intended SSB to be as strong as SSG. 80% SSG Goku was fighting evenly with Beerus, but when Beerus powered-up & Goku went 100%, he had trouble against him, and he still had trouble at about the same level when he went back to base, but he fought better as a Super Saiyan because he became more aggressive. Beerus said that Goku's power didn't drop much when he lost SSG, but he didn't elaborate which form he was talking about, base, SS, or both, compared to SSG? I think both, because Goku was fighting the same in SSG & base, and he only fought better as a SS because he got more aggressive (unless you think SS > SSG, which goes against what Beerus says). I get the feeling that there is a very small difference between base, SS, and SSG, and this seems to be what Toriyama implies in an interview, since he says that Goku no longer needs SSG because Goku has now absorbed its power, and he isn't talking about SSB because he says that we will probably understand this after watching BoG. So, if there is a small difference between base, SS, and SSG, but a big difference between base & SSB, there should be a big difference between SSG & SSB as well. EDIT: There is also the fact that Goku can still transform on his own into a SSG. Why would he have 2 new forms with the same power?

Now, as for what Super does... that's confusing. They have SS exactly as strong as SSG, and they seem to have base close to SS, since Goku could not only stop, but also destroy the big ki ball. But then they have Goku training as a Super Saiyan, and then Goku & Vegeta refusing to use SS to push themselves in base and become even stronger... Then again, this is Toei, and they have the habit to contradict not only Toriyama, but also themselves.

[Bullza]

Super saiyan god is just the new base state for Goku and Vegeta... they absorb the god power... that means in normal state they have the same power more or less of the super saiyan god.

Nah they're too weak in base form for them to be equal to SSJG.

It doesn't make sense with Whis' comparison of their power, Goku saying Beerus' sneeze blast would kill them, Frieza being taken aback when Goku turns SSJB.

Golden Frieza after losing a lot of power still thought that base Vegeta was no match for him too.

[buutenks]

In this episode Whis seems to know about SSGSS transformation

By theory could be either way:

SSGSS > SSJG (More plausible)

SSGSS = SSJG (The difference is the first one is a permanent instead of a temporary form)


"Saiyan Beyond God" probably might be not a thing in DBS, I think.

Freeza one shotted Base Gohan in his 1st form and yet this proves that:

Saiyan Beyond God Goku > = Super Saiyan God Goku?

Final Form Freeza ROF > Boo-han?

Not really

I always suspected that since gohan could 'only\ go ssj1 in ROF,that his base basically became as weak as goku's and vegeta's base prior to the god powerup and whis training.AKA weaker than final form freeza in namek saga.Meaning freeza got his first form which was at 530 k PL to around 120 mil or perhaps higher.

My opinion anyways ^^

Edit:Also goku said in ep 20 that the sneeze blast nearly caught him off guard.Guess goku still didnt learn from what whis told him and staying relaxed all the time.

As for whis comparison with the tree.ye seems like a contradiction,or goku can only harness his full max via SSJ,so i guess then it wouldnt be a contradiction.And in turn means ssj blue is an improved ssj1 which boosts his power even further.

[FuriusMarius]

Super saiyan god is just the new base state for Goku and Vegeta... they absorb the god power... that means in normal state they have the same power more or less of the super saiyan god.

Nah they're too weak in base form for them to be equal to SSJG.

It doesn't make sense with Whis' comparison of their power, Goku saying Beerus' sneeze blast would kill them, Freeza being taken aback when Goku turns SSJB.

Golden Freeza after losing a lot of power still thought that base Vegeta was no match for him too.

If Goku absorbed the power of the Super Saiyan God and when he goes to Whis planet is just slightly below Vegeta without SSGSSJm then is clearly that Vegeta and Goku base have a similar power to SSG... Bills was playing with Goku... when he want to defeat him, he just did.

[Bullza]

Goku absorbed the SSJG power and was of the same strenght when he was a Super Saiyan. How strong he is in base is questionable but I'm certain that when he said Vegeta was stronger than him that he was referring to their base states.

No way is base Vegeta at that point stronger than SSJG.

[Marlowe89]

My point is that the statement can't be interpreted exclusively as SSG = SSB.

We've been over this already. If Herms' translation is accurate, which is that SSGSS is a Super Saiyan "that is" (which means equivalent to) a Saiyan with the power of SSG, then that is the only possible way to interpret that statement. If the translation is inaccurate, only then would the discrepancy in Dokkan Battle be explained - otherwise, Dokkan Battle itself could plausibly be misinterpreting the statement.

but he fought better as a Super Saiyan because he became more aggressive

Baseless assumption on your part. He likely fought better as a Super Saiyan because, like in all instances where Goku fights better as a Super Saiyan, he did so simply because SS is a stronger transformation. In BoG's case, it could very well be because SS draws out more of SSG's power than he is otherwise capable of drawing out in base.

I think both, because Goku was fighting the same in SSG & base

Also a baseless assumption, because you have no of way of quantifying that. It only seems to you that Goku's base form could perform equally to SSG when the reality of the situation is that we barely saw him fight in base after the absorption.

and this seems to be what Toriyama implies in an interview, since he says that Goku no longer needs SSG because Goku has now absorbed its power, and he isn't talking about SSB because he says that we will probably understand this after watching BoG.

I don't know where you get the idea that Toriyama's interview implies that Goku's base form is as strong as SSG, simply because he said that Goku no longer needs SSG, when we explicitly saw him perform better as a Super Saiyan post-absorption.

There is also the fact that Goku can still transform on his own into a SSG.

You still haven't proven that he can do this at will, and until you are able to do so your entire point here is moot.

[RandomGuy96]

Kitchen > Android 18 was further confirmed by a recent episode.

[dbzfan7]

Kitchen > Android 18 was further confirmed by a recent episode.

Gotta remember to add kitchen on my tier list.