Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:10 am

I'm curious who you guys think, simply by their design and facial expression, are the strongest in Champa's team. I personally think the robot is either the strongest or the weakest. If he's the strongest, then the purple guy and the Saiyan would be next, probably fairly even, with Freeza 2.0 right after and lastly the bear. That's my prediction.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:19 am

Bullza wrote:The Japanese version said a similiar thing, that the form was Super Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God aka a version of Super Saiyan that has a power level similiar to that of a Super Saiyan God.

Again implying they're roughly the same strenght.

Freeza already knew that Goku was holding power back so it doesn't make sense for him to react the way he did if Goku only went from a 6 to a 7/7.5ish.

It does make sense though if Goku went from a 2-3 up to a 6-7.
The Japanese version said "but basically, it's the super Saiyan form of a Saiyan who has the power of super Saiyan God" that similar wording but whole different explanation.
1.25x is a big difference in power, which evidential in the Cui vs Vegeta fight.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:39 am

All I see on this site (because I can't find the script) is this.

"As Toriyama explained it, and as Son Goku similarly mentions in the movie, “This Super Saiyan is a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God”."

Along with the Funi dub also it does imply that they're similiar except the SSJB has the advantages of not needing others and there being no time limit.

If SSJB and SSJG are similiar then base must be weaker.

25% is a significant amount but it seems stupidly low to introduce a whole new transformation and for Frieza to react that way over a 25% power boost and if that. There's no saying it's even as high as 20%.
I'm curious who you guys think, simply by their design and facial expression, are the strongest in Champa's team.
The Frost Demon and the Purple alien I'd guess were the two strongest.

It's not going to be the robot or Winnie the Pooh. The kid is a possibility but I'd guess the Purple alien was the strongest.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:17 am

Bullza wrote:All I see on this site (because I can't find the script) is this.

"As Toriyama explained it, and as Son Goku similarly mentions in the movie, “This Super Saiyan is a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God”."

Along with the Funi dub also it does imply that they're similiar except the SSJB has the advantages of not needing others and there being no time limit.

If SSJB and SSJG are similiar then base must be weaker.

25% is a significant amount but it seems stupidly low to introduce a whole new transformation and for Freeza to react that way over a 25% power boost and if that. There's no saying it's even as high as 20%.
I'm curious who you guys think, simply by their design and facial expression, are the strongest in Champa's team.
The Frost Demon and the Purple alien I'd guess were the two strongest.

It's not going to be the robot or Winnie the Pooh. The kid is a possibility but I'd guess the Purple alien was the strongest.
You make it seem like Frieza was losing his shit when he saw SSGSS except he wasn't.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:46 am

Bullza wrote:
Why is it so hard for you to believe that they're ssj god level??
I did initially but then Super changed things. It became clear that Goku is no longer a God since the end of BoG and Vegeta never became a God. Vegeta got as strong as he did in base just by training with Whis.

So however strong they are in base whereas before we assumed it was because they'd absorbed the power of SSJG is in fact just power they've obtained through intense training and they don't have to be as strong as SSJG at all.

That then makes sense to me with the power jumps and reactions when they do transform because his power could jump 2 or 3 times. It doesn't seem right for Goku to turn into a SSJB and Freeza to act all nervous when his power would have only increased by about 20-25%.

I'm not gonna say SSJB isn't stronger than SSJG because I think it would have intended to be but in the Funi dub Goku says he had a taste of something called SSJG and now he could tap into that power on his own. That implies they're around the same as do the comments about SSJB being a type of Super Saiyan with the power of SSJG.

If anything SSJB is on the same level or stronger than SSJG and the base form is a few fold weaker.

I do think their base forms are very powerful though. Vegeta was on par with Goku's base strenght after 6 months of training and by that point they'd reached the level to be able to sense Gods.
You shouldn't use the funi dub for debating. As the original japanese said something completely different..
It was never said that it was "a super saiyan with the power of super saiyan god".. But rather.. "The Super Saiyan Form of a saiyan who has the power of a super saiyan god.." Big difference.
And this is one of the things that i completely hate about the dub.. They indeed had Goku saying: "i've got a taste of something called super saiyan god, and now i've learned to tap into that power on my own." But this is simply NOT what was said in the original.. And thus a Complete Mistranslation!
Image

Also how do you explain the fact that Goku didn't turn blue in the bog arc of super when he turned super saiyan?? (even though it was clearly stated he had kept the full bulk of it's power) well the only way to make sense out of it is that after training with Whis he turned Blue because he absorbed it in base.
Let's ask ourselves what this form was supposed to be..
Well, it's Super Saiyan MIXED with god power.. Which litterally means. (The God Power in Base ofcourse) then turning super saiyan on top of it. Whilst in the BoG arc. Goku's SSJ form WAS as strong as ssj god.. So It still wouldn't be mixed like ssj blue is.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:59 am

LightBing wrote:There's also the Saiyans surviving Beerus sleeping attack, which is said to be unrestrained. If they were weaker than SSG I doubt they would survive.
There is also SbG Goku surviving a ki blast from SSB Vegeta without a scratch, which shows that the gap between SbG & SSB isn't huge.
LightBing wrote:So here's what I have:

Goku absorbed the SSG power almost entirely. I have him before training at 5,8. Vegeta gets those 6 months training head-start to catch up with Goku.

After training with Whis, they grow in strength to the point Beerus takes an interest in them. I have them at 6,3 during the Freeza fight. They achieve SSB who pushes them further into 7,6 enough to have the chance of beating Beerus in a tag team. Golden Freeza is around 8,2.
Going by the movies only (since these are the "canon" versions of BoG & FnF IMO), this is my take:
  • SSG Goku (80%) - 48
    SSG Goku (100%) - 60
    SbG base Goku (BoG) - 58,5
    SbG SS Goku (BoG) - 58,7
    SbG Goku (FnF) - 60
    SSB Goku - 75

    SbG Vegeta - 59
    SSB Vegeta - 73,8

    Final Form Freeza - 45
    Golden Freeza - 85
    Golden Freeza (weakened) - 61

    Beerus (initially against God Goku) - 49
    Beerus (eventually against Goku) - 70
    Beerus (full power) - 100

    Whis - 150
Bullza wrote:I did initially but then Super changed things. It became clear that Goku is no longer a God since the end of BoG and Vegeta never became a God. Vegeta got as strong as he did in base just by training with Whis.
Vegeta just obtained the power of Super Saiyan God through training instead by becoming a SSG & absorbing its power. It's impossible for him not to have the power of SSG, otherwise he wouldn't be able to turn into a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Wed Dec 16, 2015 11:20 am

You make it seem like Freeza was losing his shit when he saw SSGSS except he wasn't.
He wasn't losing his shit but he was clearly unnerved by it despite knowing he was holding back already.
You shouldn't use the funi dub for debating. As the original japanese said something completely different..
It's just the Dubbed translation. The line you gave from the Japanese version is still kinda saying the same with the power of a SSJG thing. All the different versions I've seen just suggest it's a type of SSJ that has the power of a SSJG. Not that it's superior or inferior.
Also how do you explain the fact that Goku didn't turn blue in the bog arc of super when he turned super saiyan??
We can't. Back when I made the thread about what the form actually was we came up with many things. The question as to why he turned blue and not blonde also came up and we had no answer for it.

We had already come to this conclusion long before Super got here. That base form = SSJG and then when he turns Super Saiyan that Ki mixes with his SSJG Ki to create something entirely different.

But that obviously doesn't seem to be the case as Vegeta became a SSJB without having become a SSJG. Which means that there's another reason as for why it exists which we don't know yet but it might not be linked to SSJG at all.

That's likely why he didn't turn Blue when he turned back into a Super Saiyan.

Maybe it's Super Saiyan when you power it up inwardly rather than outwardly and that's why it's different and more powerful. We'll have to see.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by irreality » Wed Dec 16, 2015 11:36 am

My new explanation:

God Ki is not just a level of strength, but also a quality of Ki -- based on Whis training, I would describe it as a "stillness" in the ki -- like if ki normally "vibrated" and God ki is just strength without that.

When Goku Got SSG, he got a high level of Ki as well as God type ki. When he dropped out of SSG, his ki reverted back to normal ki (ordinary people could sense him), even though he had SSG level-strength.

In Whis training, both Goku and Vegeta are not only becoming stronger, with Vegeta taking 6 months to catch up to the strength level of SSG, but also learning how to make their ki into "God Ki" all the time, and how to sense God Ki themselves. In "that place" you can't move unless your ki becomes "god quality" ki, has that level of stillness.

Now that Goku and Vegeta know how to do this, their level of strength plus this stillness of their ki gives them that "god quality" ki. So now that they turn SSJ, they have God ki within them, the same sort of Ki SSG has. So they turn SSB.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Wed Dec 16, 2015 6:45 pm

Bullza wrote:
You make it seem like Freeza was losing his shit when he saw SSGSS except he wasn't.
He wasn't losing his shit but he was clearly unnerved by it despite knowing he was holding back already.
You shouldn't use the funi dub for debating. As the original japanese said something completely different..
It's just the Dubbed translation. The line you gave from the Japanese version is still kinda saying the same with the power of a SSJG thing. All the different versions I've seen just suggest it's a type of SSJ that has the power of a SSJG. Not that it's superior or inferior.
Frieza was unnerved for two seconds and proceeded to basically say "this still won't change the outcome of the fight". If you look at the whole first half of the fight of SSGSS Goku vs Golden Frieza then you'll notice that Goku is all beat up while Frieza has no scratches.

Frieza's reaction wouldn't change regardless if SSGSS' multiplier was 1.25x or 50x because Frieza still one upping Goku in fullpower.


Japanese line: "It's the Super Saiyan Form of a saiyan who has the power of a super saiyan god.."
English line: "I got a taste of SSJG and learned how to tap into that power on my own"

The Japanese line is self explanatory saying SSGSS is the result of when a saiyan with the power of SSJG goes SSJ. The English line more or less implies that for Goku to tap into the powers of SSJG, he needs to go SSGSS. Because he said it after he went SSGSS, English line goes against the dozen of other sources saying that Goku and Vegeta have the power of SSJG in base.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Dec 16, 2015 7:18 pm

Helios518 wrote:
Bullza wrote:
The Japanese line is self explanatory saying SSGSS is the result of when a saiyan with the power of SSJG goes SSJ. The English line more or less implies that for Goku to tap into the powers of SSJG, he needs to go SSGSS. Because he said it after he went SSGSS, English line goes against the dozen of other sources saying that Goku and Vegeta have the power of SSJG in base.
Except the movies clearly shows that his base is substantially more powerful since he not only manages to tangle with Freeza, in his final form without getting a stretch but beats his ass up good too. A Freeza who in his first form one shots Gohan and is described as on a completely different level from all the fighters present on Earth.

So yeah, the English line really isn't as contradictory as you make it out to be when the movie clearly shows that their base forms are substantially stronger now than ever before.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Wed Dec 16, 2015 7:25 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
Helios518 wrote:
Bullza wrote:
The Japanese line is self explanatory saying SSGSS is the result of when a saiyan with the power of SSJG goes SSJ. The English line more or less implies that for Goku to tap into the powers of SSJG, he needs to go SSGSS. Because he said it after he went SSGSS, English line goes against the dozen of other sources saying that Goku and Vegeta have the power of SSJG in base.
Except the movies clearly shows that his base is substantially more powerful since he not only manages to tangle with Freeza, in his final form without getting a stretch but beats his ass up good too. A Freeza who in his first form one shots Gohan and is described as on a completely different level from all the fighters present on Earth.

So yeah, the English line really isn't as contradictory as you make it out to be when the movie clearly shows that their base forms are substantially stronger now than ever before.
I know their base forms are substantially stronger actually I'm the one saying that SSJG Goku =< SBG Goku. The English line was said right after Goku went SSGSS and Goku said he learned to tap into SSJG power aka learning how to go SSGSS, that's completely different from the Japanese line.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Wed Dec 16, 2015 7:30 pm

He was still unnerved either way even when he knew he was holding back power. That Golden Frieza was handledly beating him and he himself was supposed to be comfortably weaker than Beerus leaves hardly any room for SSJB to be much of an improvement over SSJG or base form if that were equal to SSJG.
The Japanese line is self explanatory saying SSGSS is the result of when a saiyan with the power of SSJG goes SSJ.
Is this Japanese line taken from Dragon Team? If not then what's the official sub say on the Funi release? Because on here it was always translated as being

"Goku - "it’s hard to explain, but basically it’s Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God.""

Vegeta never became a SSJG in the first place so that form and that power has no link to SSJB. All we know is that Vegeta trained hard for 10 months in base form so that it drastically increased his power and then somehow he became a SSJB.

The SSJB foreshadowing several episodes ago had Whis tell the two to increase their Ki internally at which point they clashed and a blue aura appeared. Then again recently with this place Whis sent them too and talk of building up Ki internally makes it seem as though that is going to have something to do with how SSJB comes to be and not turning Super Saiyan after having become a SSJG.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Wed Dec 16, 2015 7:57 pm

He was still unnerved either way even when he knew he was holding back power. That Golden Freeza was handledly beating him and he himself was supposed to be comfortably weaker than Beerus leaves hardly any room for SSJB to be much of an improvement over SSJG or base form if that were equal to SSJG.
1.25x difference is enough to curbstomp someone, 6 x 1.25x = 7.5. Also I don't Frieza even learned to sense ki because his training was just to increase his power and doubt he has god ki.
Is this Japanese line taken from Dragon Team?
Yes that's a line from Dragon team.

Vegeta never became a SSJG in the first place so that form and that power has no link to SSJB. All we know is that Vegeta trained hard for 10 months in base form so that it drastically increased his power and then somehow he became a SSJB.

The SSJB foreshadowing several episodes ago had Whis tell the two to increase their Ki internally at which point they clashed and a blue aura appeared. Then again recently with this place Whis sent them too and talk of building up Ki internally makes it seem as though that is going to have something to do with how SSJB comes to be and not turning Super Saiyan after having become a SSJG.
It could be said that when Goku said "power of SSJG" he means strength,speed, and ki of a SSJG. Vegeta has three of those qualities of a SSJG.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:03 pm

Bullza wrote:He was still unnerved either way even when he knew he was holding back power. That Golden Freeza was handledly beating him and he himself was supposed to be comfortably weaker than Beerus leaves hardly any room for SSJB to be much of an improvement over SSJG or base form if that were equal to SSJG.
The Japanese line is self explanatory saying SSGSS is the result of when a saiyan with the power of SSJG goes SSJ.
Is this Japanese line taken from Dragon Team? If not then what's the official sub say on the Funi release? Because on here it was always translated as being

"Goku - "it’s hard to explain, but basically it’s Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God.""

Vegeta never became a SSJG in the first place so that form and that power has no link to SSJB. All we know is that Vegeta trained hard for 10 months in base form so that it drastically increased his power and then somehow he became a SSJB.

The SSJB foreshadowing several episodes ago had Whis tell the two to increase their Ki internally at which point they clashed and a blue aura appeared. Then again recently with this place Whis sent them too and talk of building up Ki internally makes it seem as though that is going to have something to do with how SSJB comes to be and not turning Super Saiyan after having become a SSJG.
Yes it was Dragon Teams. You don't have to worry about that, i always know my sources. But Vegeta obtaining God Power on his own can easily be explained by a theory.(yet they didn't even bother to explain that in Super) my Theory is that Vegeta somehow absorbed some god ki during the ritual to make Goku a God.. It would explain A LOT of things that happens afterwards in Super. If you pay close attention to the details.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:35 pm

From what I understand about this discussion, it comes down to a difference between Herms' translation and some fansubbing group.

I'm siding with Herms.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:53 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote:From what I understand about this discussion, it comes down to a difference between Herms' translation and some fansubbing group.

I'm siding with Herms.
What was his translation?
Why I use "Geran" instead of "Jiren"

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:25 pm

Doctor. wrote:I'm curious who you guys think, simply by their design and facial expression, are the strongest in Champa's team. I personally think the robot is either the strongest or the weakest. If he's the strongest, then the purple guy and the Saiyan would be next, probably fairly even, with Freeza 2.0 right after and lastly the bear. That's my prediction.
I think the purple guy is the strongest in Champa's team, followed by the Freeza-esque fighter, the short man, the bear and then the robot.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:51 pm

Helios518 wrote:
Kamiccolo9 wrote:From what I understand about this discussion, it comes down to a difference between Herms' translation and some fansubbing group.

I'm siding with Herms.
What was his translation?
Bullza wrote: Is this Japanese line taken from Dragon Team? If not then what's the official sub say on the Funi release? Because on here it was always translated as being

"Goku - "it’s hard to explain, but basically it’s Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God.""
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by nato25 » Wed Dec 16, 2015 11:52 pm

Frieza wouldn't be able to sense Beerus' ki though, isn't he just scared of him because of the stories his father told him?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Thu Dec 17, 2015 5:25 am

Kamiccolo9 wrote:
Helios518 wrote:
Kamiccolo9 wrote:From what I understand about this discussion, it comes down to a difference between Herms' translation and some fansubbing group.

I'm siding with Herms.
What was his translation?
Bullza wrote: Is this Japanese line taken from Dragon Team? If not then what's the official sub say on the Funi release? Because on here it was always translated as being

"Goku - "it’s hard to explain, but basically it’s Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God.""
That's not Herms' translation. That's his translation of the line from the script:
Goku: “Hehehe…Actually, this here’s a bit different. It’s tough to explain, but I’m a Super Saiyan who’s a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God.”
In the movie, you can also clearly hear the words, "Sūpā Saiya-jin Goddo", "Saiya-jin", and "Sūpā Saiya-jin" even if you don't know Japanese.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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